Charles and Camilla: The Marriage (2005 and on)

[Madame Royale]

My understanding was that she was not considered aristocratic enough to be a future Queen, and was known to be 'happy to bed, before she wed'. Neither were considered suitable nor desirable traits for the wife of the heir at the time. She was not a virgin and people knew it. An indavidual's privacy was the worst kept secret in society.

We musn't forget, it was the early 80's and at the time, the institution was still only starting to find it's feet in a modern era. Tradition was still very much at the forefront, and observance of that tradition remained pivitol to the key players (senior members of the royal family and senior Household staff who had been in service for some considerable time by then).

 

[Tyger]

My understanding was that she was not considered aristocratic enough to be a future Queen, and was known to be 'happy to bed, before she wed'. Neither were considered suitable nor desirable traits for the wife of the heir at the time. She was not a virgin and people knew it. An indavidual's privacy was the worst kept secret in society.

But who were saying these things? Newspapers? And were they saying it after it was obvious that it was Camilla who had moved on - marrying someone else. It was a way to claim that 'well, she wasn't suitable anyway.'

We musn't forget, it was the early 80's and at the time, the institution was still only starting to find it's feet in a modern era. Tradition was still very much at the forefront, and observance of that tradition remained pivitol to the key players (senior members of the royal family and senior Household staff who had been in service for some considerable time by then).

Typo there I think. It was the early 70's. Its possible that had Camilla not been keen on Andrew things may have worked out differently. As it was she was 'in love' elsewhere - done deal - so the 'maybe' was never even really in the cards. That's what is always forgotten - Camilla was in love elsewhere. She made a different choice - had other ideas about what she wanted her life to be.

but wasn't Charles very upset after he found out Camilla got married? I think he wrote a letter to his uncle Dickie saying he had nobody in England waiting for him and that he hoped the emptiness he felt would eventually pass. he must have loved her if he said such things

Love/Lust - hard to say at that time of life sometimes - the latter overwhelms the former and subtleties can be lost. Clearly he had found a connection with her. That it was love? That he knew it was love? Who knows. He knew he was disappointed that she was now taken and not available to him in an intimate way - I think that is what is significant about what he expressed to his uncle. (Flying in the face of those that think that a newly minted bride very much in love with her husband would dally outside the marriage). In effect he had gotten a 'Dear John' letter and lost a girlfriend - it happens - and he was at loose ends. But there was no reason to believe he wouldn't be able to effect another connection with someone else down the road.

 

[COUNTESS]

Look, Charles has always loved her. He knew he might have to marry someone "more suitable". But he loved her and carried on affair with her, before Diana, with Diana and after Diana. And with no thought about Andrew. Andrew carried on with many others, too. Camilla became non-negotiable. Camilla was not worried about her reputation. She is a forthright woman and lived her life her way. Mistresses were very much a part of the British Upper Class.

 

[Artemisia]

The bottom line is, we don't know what really happened between Charles and Camilla.
We have ideas, opinions and guesses but ultimately, only two people know the whole truth - and they have never shared any part of their story.

 

[NGalitzine]

and they have never shared any part of their story.

I find that very admirable.
While other public people give interviews and bare their souls for public consumption they have not talked about their marriage. Even during the War of the Wales Camilla kept her own counsel and never talked.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I have heard 2 sides of the story about what happened back then. Either Charles was discouraged from marrying Camilla or both Charles and Camilla were operating that they were dating and having fun but marriage was not in their future coupled with the fact that Camilla was in love with Andrew Parker Bowles. As time went on, the connection between Camilla and Charles grew and they realized how much they needed each other while they were both married to other people.
I don't think Charles has ever talked specifically about his personal life whether in regards to Camilla or not, so it is hard to determine what really happened back then.
I have unfortunately not been allowed to read a book specifically about Camilla so this might be wrong, but I got the impression that Camilla was not raised to do anything else but obtain a good marriage which Andrew provided. But marrying Charles required a very stressful job as Princess of Wales and Queen of England which I am not convinced Camilla ever looked forward to.

 

[COUNTESS]

They didn't have to, there were recordings made public, lest you forget.

 

[Artemisia]

I find that very admirable.
While other public people give interviews and bare their souls for public consumption they have not talked about their marriage. Even during the War of the Wales Camilla kept her own counsel and never talked.

Me too. One of the reasons I gradually warmed to Camilla was the dignity she displayed during a time that was incredibly hard not only for her, but for her children. She never broke her silence, never tried to defend herself or tell her side of the story. As far as I am concerned, she is a true lady, even if she didn't actually have the style.

They didn't have to, there were recordings made public, lest you forget.

They didn't chose to air those though, did they? The infamous recording was gross invasion of privacy; no one, whether private or public person, should have his or her privacy invaded in such a manner.

 

[Tyger]

Look, Charles has always loved her. He knew he might have to marry someone "more suitable". But he loved her and carried on an affair with her, before Diana, with Diana and after Diana.

From where do you get this information? The only person that I know who was claiming this was Charles' first wife when their marriage was broken down. It was a claim that was essential to make in the early 90's because her own (several) infidelities were about to be - or were in danger of being - made public. The accusation was a pre-emptive strike. Never mind its truth or untruth - it was a way to justify her own wandering. This is transparently clear - spouses do it all the time in divorce cases - cast the blame to make an excuse for their own misbehavior. She made the accusation and it has certainly stuck - but to claim it is fact, based on her say-so, is shaky ground imo. Is there some evidence for this outside of the first wife's accusation? Wondering.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Tyger I am pretty, Countess is not stating that Charles was with Camilla during his marriage as a criticism of Charles and Camilla. Diana made the accusation Charles married her with the intention of carrying on his affair with Camilla and that even when they were engaged he was still seeing Cam; that is something that has never been proven or disproved. But what is true is that Charles did see Camilla before Diana, while married to Diana, after divorcing Diana, and after Diana's death.
Does anything I just said make sense, or is my opinion not being made clear? I have a tendency to be confusing.

 

[maryr0249]

From where do you get this information? The only person that I know who was claiming this was Charles' first wife when their marriage was broken down. It was a claim that was essential to make in the early 90's because her own (several) infidelities were about to be - or were in danger of being - made public. The accusation was a pre-emptive strike. Never mind its truth or untruth - it was a way to justify her own wandering. This is transparently clear - spouses do it all the time in divorce cases - cast the blame to make an excuse for their own misbehavior. She made the accusation and it has certainly stuck - but to claim it is fact, based on her say-so, is shaky ground imo.

Exactly. Unlike thousands of other divorces during which people say rash things, in this one the wife's words were recorded forever and became part of a publicity war. She won. Then, whether she liked it or not, others built a propaganda campaign against Charles and Camilla that has made money for lots of publishers and taken on a bizarre life of its own.

 

[Tyger]

Tyger I am pretty, Countess is not stating that Charles was with Camilla during his marriage as a criticism of Charles and Camilla. Diana made the accusation Charles married her with the intention of carrying on his affair with Camilla and that even when they were engaged he was still seeing Cam; that is something that has never been proven or disproved. But what is true is that Charles did see Camilla before Diana, while married to Diana, after divorcing Diana, and after Diana's death.

Does anything I just said make sense, or is my opinion not being made clear? I have a tendency to be confusing.

She accused him of an intention. Interesting. Absolutely no way to confirm that. She says he intended - did he follow through with the intention? We do not know. We know he 'saw' her.

By 'seeing' do you mean as in seeing a friend? He is after all godfather to one of her children, I believe. I suppose the question is when - in all that 'seeing' - did an affair commence? According to Charles, in 1986, the same year Mr Hewitt entered the picture for Diana. That is all that we know.

The whole thing is so sordid - and I mean the dragging of a friendship through the mud via innuendo and outright falsity for someone's own purposes (the wife's). Nasty. Nasty business. Was at the time - continues to be.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I officially have no idea what you are talking about. I am not disputing your accounts, I don't buy into Diana's side of the story of events; all I am saying is that Charles was with Camilla before Diana, while married to Diana (don't know which year it rekindled) after divorcing Diana, and after her death.

 

[Tyger]

I officially have no idea what you are talking about. I am not disputing your accounts, I don't buy into Diana's side of the story of events; all I am saying is that Charles was with Camilla before Diana, while married to Diana (don't know which year it rekindled) after divorcing Diana, and after her death.

Then you have officially confused me. Now you are saying he was with her - by 'with her' do you mean that Charles was having an affair with Camilla? 'With her' - 'before Diana, while married to Diana', etc.? Charles has said he was having an affair with Camilla from 1986 on - so we have that as a given.

I am not aware that he was 'with her' - Camilla - prior to 1986 except as a friend visiting her family. You seem to be saying that he was 'with her' as a lover - is that what you are saying? If you are saying that, from where are you getting that information? As far as I know it is only Diana who has cast a suspicion in that direction - and for the reasons I gave, her accusations are suspect since she was trying to claim that the breakdown of the marriage wasn't her fault, that she was working up-hill from day-1 of the marriage due to her husband's friendship with a woman Diana knew became his lover later. What Diana was doing is pretty transparent - by casting Camilla as the overshadowing presence, Diana never had to pony up to her part in the breakdown of the marriage - because, after all, folks, it was rigged from the start.

The fact that Diana was so resoundingly successful in playing this card - no matter realities - is one of the mysteries of the 1990's. Through this absurd spin of events - tried by everyone from Kindergarten up - to cover their culpability - it was nonetheless swallowed hook-line-and-sinker by a good portion of the public.

With Diana's physical attributes - generally conceded - it is a wonder she wasn't able to blot out every woman Charles had every been with - yet she would have us believe he was toodling around elsewhere from the get-go. Not likely imo - and is a disrespect to what eventually did come out very naturally and understandably. If anything, Charles has shown that he is a consistent and loyal partner when given the chance.

 

[COUNTESS]

What nonsense. He maintained his relationship with his mistress from the beginning.She sent him gold cufflinks and he sent her a gold bracelet when he married. Very touching. They had pet names for one another. The sordid tapes, between him and Camilla during and, certainly after. But, to this end, it doesn't matter. Diana and Charles were a terrible match. And, she was working uphill from the beginning. Because, this wonderful marriage of today, is because he always felt that way about Camilla. Diana was a necessary evil for him. When a man loves a woman, to all distraction, she is an overpowering shadow.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Diana dated the start of the affair, during the marriage, between Charles and Camilla to 1986 - the same year she started cheating with Hewitt.

So we know Charles and Camilla were friends in the early 70s. Charles left for the navy without proposing for one reason or another and she married APB, who had also been connected to a certain Princess Anne. Then in the late 70s they were friends and some suggest lovers after Camilla married Andrew but before Charles took up with Diana. During this time of course Charles was dating a number of ladies who were all tipped to be his future wife - so while dating Diana's sister, Jane Wellesley and others he somewhere fitted in time to have a relationship with Camilla - or was it still just a friendship and a certain late Princess of Wales has made it more than it was. That C and C were friends in the late 70s in not in doubt - how far that friendship went has never been confirmed by either of them.

Before the engagement and the marriage Diana was convinced that Camilla was sleeping with Charles but still decided to marry the man anyway - a man she didn't trust and a man she believed didn't love her. You therefore have to ask yourself why did she marry a man when any teenage with half a brain would have told him to get lost if that was what they believed. To me Camilla was in Diana's head not Charles' bed until Diana drove Charles away from her with her distrust of her husband. Of course this isn't a topic to be discussed in this thread as this is to do with Charles and Camilla since 2005.

Now with that background as I see it Charles and Diana separated and divorced. Diana went out of her way to embarass the BRF as much as she could until she died and Andrew and Camilla divorced, This is something I don't think either of them actually wanted to do but they were put in the position of having to do so to save some face by Diana and her relevations in the Morton book. Again a topic for another thread as this one is for Charles and Camilla since 2005.

Now to exactly that - the wedding and the post-wedding story of Charles and Camilla.

Charles, after that was faced with the dilemma of what to do with Camilla. He clearly loved her but did he really want to marry her? Well yes - by now he realised that he did. He then had to convince the people that mattered most that he needed her, not just wanted her, but needed her. He managed to do that by 2005 and the rest as they say is history.

Since 2005 Camilla hasn't put a foot wrong. She has supported her husband, has never tried to steal the limelight from Charles or The Queen and the world is now able to see what we were denied in Charles' first marriage - a settled, happy and contented Prince of Wales.

If this is a precursor of what to expect in the future we will have a happy and contented King who knows that when he goes home he won't have to deal with a jealous shrew but will have a loving and supportive wife there to comfort him if things have been hard, to compliment him if things have gone well, to discuss the people seen and events watched together with enjoyment.

Sorry mods if this post is too far off topic at the beginning but I do hope that I brought it back by the end of the post to the topic - Charles and Camilla since 2005.

 

[Tyger]

What nonsense. He maintained his relationship with his mistress from the beginning. She sent him gold cufflinks and he sent her a gold bracelet when he married. Very touching. They had pet names for one another. The sordid tapes, between him and Camilla during and, certainly after. But, to this end, it doesn't matter. Diana and Charles were a terrible match. And, she was working uphill from the beginning. Because, this wonderful marriage of today, is because he always felt that way about Camilla. Diana was a necessary evil for him. When a man loves a woman, to all distraction, she is an overpowering shadow.

We are in a thread-nap though it can be argued that this is relevant to the current marriage. My point is that the marriage is as sound as it is - not because it is an 'in love' situation from way back - but because it is a love that grew out of friendship and maturity in later years.

You repeat 'factoids' that were claimed by Diana but we have since learned were not so. We have since learned that Diana had trouble with accuracy. You repeat all her spins - but you never offer from who any of this is corroborated.

You believe she was working up-hill because she said so. In this she may have spoken truer than she knew. The up-hill battle, however, was not because of her spouse's friendships (how many times have I heard that from a friend - an insecure man or woman - in a relationship), but because of herself. We now know she was in a monumental battle with herself. It is doubtful any marriage with anyone would have survived the stresses. She had all the chips, though - and squandered the gold. The result - Charles looked elsewhere as did Diana - and it is from that we have the marriage we now have. A friend became a lover - and Charles has proved steadfast and loyal to the last. IMO he would have done the same with Diana had he been able, but he wasn't - so this marriage - while not pre-destined, I don't think - became possible.

LATER: I see Iluvbertie posted - and one element in all this that I think bears repeating is that the Parker-Bowles marriage was essentially destroyed by the Morton book. Again, had Camilla had her way, she would still be married to Andrew Parker-Bowles. Camilla sacrificed a great deal to support a friend - and that friend is proving steadfast and loyal to her now. The marriage is a sterling example of mature love.

 

[Madame Royale]

But who were saying these things? Newspapers? And were they saying it after it was obvious that it was Camilla who had moved on - marrying someone else. It was a way to claim that 'well, she wasn't suitable anyway.'

Of course the tabloids played their part, but Camilla was a known seasoned social goer who's lineage was not, shall we say, as refined as was expected at the time of a future Queen Consort. Understandable that she was resolved to move on and start a life with a man who no doubt she held great affection for (but who was himself an enthusiastic womanizer), in the knowledge that she was not considered up to the task by those in positions of influence. She was 'tarnished goods' (however unfortunate that may sound). And as much as people may not like it, the position of Princess of Wales came with the expectation of having a clean slate.

And yes, I did mean the 1970's, though it was in 1981 that Charles walked down the aisle with his blushing bride. A 'chaste english rose' of distinguished pedigree, and with première connections to boot . . . enough said really.

 

[wbenson]

As the title says, this thread is to discuss the marriage from 2005 and on. Off-topic posts will be deleted.

 

[MARG]

So guys, back to 'The Marriage' . . . I think that it is going from strength to strength. Camilla and Charles seem to bring out the best in each other. They display wit and humour and exude a very down to earth persona as evidenced by the Scandanavian tour. All in all my Prince of Wales is a much happier man today than he was 10 years ago and 7 years of marriage has given us a really great Crown Princely Couple.

 

[Kataryn]

I'm of the opinion that we will never know what exactly went on; the same can be said of any of the so-called 'experts' who write about it. We can debate it until we're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that it's 2012, Charles and Camilla are evidently happily married and Camilla is being increasingly accepted and appreciated in her own right.

All that makes me hopeful, not only for C&C, but for the monarchy generally.

Well said. Does the past matter any longer when they are safely married nowadays and will master the future side by side?

 

[Iluvbertie]

So guys, back to 'The Marriage' . . . I think that it is going from strength to strength. Camilla and Charles seem to bring out the best in each other. They display wit and humour and exude a very down to earth persona as evidenced by the Scandanavian tour. All in all my Prince of Wales is a much happier man today than he was 10 years ago and 7 years of marriage has given us a really great Crown Princely Couple.

Agree totally. The last 7 years have seen Charles become a much happier and more settled Prince of Wales and thus a more settled future King. He has obviously enjoyed his tours and duties with and without Camilla, which says a lot about the state of the marriage and the homelife - he is comfortable both on and off duty and that shows. Camilla should be praised for giving us this change in our future monarch.

 

[Daria_S]

So guys, back to 'The Marriage' . . . I think that it is going from strength to strength. Camilla and Charles seem to bring out the best in each other. They display wit and humour and exude a very down to earth persona as evidenced by the Scandanavian tour. All in all my Prince of Wales is a much happier man today than he was 10 years ago and 7 years of marriage has given us a really great Crown Princely Couple.

Agree totally. The last 7 years have seen Charles become a much happier and more settled Prince of Wales and thus a more settled future King. He has obviously enjoyed his tours and duties with and without Camilla, which says a lot about the state of the marriage and the homelife - he is comfortable both on and off duty and that shows. Camilla should be praised for giving us this change in our future monarch.

Well said, both of you . I've noticed the happiness and ease in Charles since his second marriage as well. He's definitely smiling and laughing a lot more. Camila is indeed bringing out the best in this man, whom so few seem to be able to understand, and that's wonderful. Not all of us are lucky enough to find a person that will see us and love us for ourselves, as well as understand and accept every quirk. From what I have seen, it would appear that this particular couple is indeed happy and very much in love. I also love the subtlety with which they display their affection for each other in public. Most of the time, it's done with a smile or a look, and that is plenty for us, observers. At times, a glance or a smile between two people say more than proclamations of love, or ostentatious gifts.

 

[Baroness of Books]

So guys, back to 'The Marriage' . . . I think that it is going from strength to strength. Camilla and Charles seem to bring out the best in each other. They display wit and humour and exude a very down to earth persona as evidenced by the Scandanavian tour. All in all my Prince of Wales is a much happier man today than he was 10 years ago and 7 years of marriage has given us a really great Crown Princely Couple.

It's really great to see them hit their stride and to display their mature affection for each other in so many subtle, tacit and outright ways. Charles is definitely the man he was meant to be with Camilla, and to see their relationship in action has brought about an amazing turnaround in public conception that might make them the envy of many a married couple or those in a longstanding relationship who would like to know the secret of what makes theirs "tick."

 

[BellaFay]

but wasn't Charles very upset after he found out Camilla got married? I think he wrote a letter to his uncle Dickie saying he had nobody in England waiting for him and that he hoped the emptiness he felt would eventually pass. he must have loved her if he said such things

Yes you are right. Jonathan Dimbleby’s biography of Charles (1994), which is the only biography of Charles and Camilla to use extracts from Charles’s diaries and letters quotes (p.191) from a confidential letter sent from Antigua 27 April 1973 (just after returning from 1 week’s shore leave with Mountbatten on isle of Eleuthera) that he “had just learned” that Camilla had consented to marry Andrew Parker Bowles and that it seemed particularly cruel to him that after “such a blissful, peaceful and mutually happy relationship” fate had decreed that it should last a mere six months, with “no one” to go back to in England. [I stressed the mutually deliberately]. Furthermore another letter (p.184) written to Mountbatten a couple of weeks before Xmas in December 1972 just after Charles saw Camilla for last time before embarked on HMS Minerva quotes him writing sadly about it being “the last time I shall see her for 8 months” [i.e. he was fully intending to continue his relationship with her when he returned in August 1973]. 6 months before this letter (when according to PC’s letter he first met & fell for Camilla} brings us to early June 1972 when (pp.182-183) he was at a land-based Naval establishment HMS Mercury in Petersfield (Hants) only 5-6 miles away from Camilla’s grandmother’s house in East Meon, where they had meetings on several occasions, and close to a number of polo fields where they could easily have been introduced by the couple’s mutual school/university friend Lucia de Sta Cruz. Charles was less than 25 yrs old and according to the Royal Marriage Act (as amended in 1956) he could not get engaged without the Queen’s agreement. Between June 1972 and December 1972 he had no opportunity even to introduce her to the Queen as he was on a whole succession of naval courses to bring him up to speed on navigation (pp.182-184) before he set off on the 8 month tour of duty in Caribbean and South America. According to a friend of APB (who later related the story to Tina Brown 2007) APB was surprised to find his engagement to Camilla announced in the Times in spring 1973 as was his friend. This may explain why Camilla never wrote to tell Prince Charles of the engagement as it was hurriedly arranged so that they were married a month before Charles returned from his naval tour. So there are ways of knowing what actually went on. As a trained historian I prefer to believe the documentation rather than trust to my own experience of life and love.

 

[Kataryn]

Very interesting complilation of sources. Camilla has shown herself to be a very wise woman and in all probability (and on looking back) her choice was the right one for her, considering the circumstances and that in that day and age Charles would be discouraged from marrying her while she herself did not crave the limelight at all. Especially as Charles at that time was a young officer who had a much more carefree life than he would have had after he married. My personal belief is that Charles and Camilla had formed a friendship coming form the heart and soul, but not necessarily from the body at first. At least not while her marriage to APB worked. And then he was married, too. But that she offered him a warm heart and hearth when both their marriages became strained.

Which could have worked out if Diana had accepted that while she could not make the man happy, she could be a good and loyal teampartner of The Prince. But she went public with her story and ended not only her marriage, but that of the Parker-Bowles as well.

I am really glad that they could finally tie the knot and live in the public eye as the best of friends who are married as well, so he could share all his Earthly Goods asn his social position with her openly while I'm still not convinced she ever craved to be more than Charles' nearest and dearest in private.

But: their bond is so strong and so reliable and she has proven that she is perfectly capable of teaming up with him as his Royal spouse that I strongly believ these two were meant for each other, but that Camilla is still thankful for the quiet years she had as the neither famous nor infamous Mrs. Parker Bowles but just as an Army wife with kids.

 

[Warren]

Before we go off-topic too far in the reverse direction, please note that much of this material is covered in the thread C&C love story - the early days (1970-1973).

While some cross-referencing is unavoidable in terms of providing back story and perspective, could members please keep the focus of this thread on Charles and Camilla post-2005.

thanks
Warren
British Forums moderator

 

[misselle]

Charles and Camilla seem to be a well-matched couple, but tabloids love to target them; it's anything to make a dollar with the tabloids.

 

[soapstar]

I used to dislike Camilla (and didn't care for Charles much either), but over the years my feelings have changed. I have really come to like them both. Especially Camilla. She seems like such a warm, fun person and I've come to see that they are a great match.

 

[COUNTESS]

They were, always, a match, that is the sad thing. So, many others got bloodied in the interim.