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  #141  
Old 09-15-2007, 06:47 AM
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i think you're both right. they're happy now and that's all that matters. i hope they have a wonderful future together.
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  #142  
Old 09-19-2007, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
It is sad that they all ended up with the wrong partners, but these things happen and have happened for years. I believe Camilla loved Charles, but was bullied by factions of his family, to do the right thing and settle elsewhere.

They are happy together now, there is so much misery in this world, surely nobody begrudges them their golden years - together?
Well, I, for one, certainly don't begrudge Charles and Camilla their happiness, and, like you, wish them every good thing and joy and pleasure from their children and families.

However, I do believe that it's true that Camilla's greatest love was Andrew, and those whom I know in the UK tend to confirm this. Andrew, but, wasn't so compliant, nor confident in his choice.

Nor do I believe that Charles was unduly influenced by his family: at the time, Charles was influenced by indecision and a sense of his own sense of 'worth'.

It is inaccurate and wrong, in my opinion, to adorn the then tortuous and circular marital facade and circuses in any other way than what it was: questionable and very disappointing to many of usl

All parties were thoroughly duplicitous, I do believe.

None of which encourages me to not wish the Prince of Wales and his wife good luck, good fortune, and enduring happiness.

But please, let's not ignore the truth of the unedifying and contrived, and PR-spinned past. It does not enhance the reputations of any ,but, alternatively, subjects those whom we care about to easy and obvious ridicule when they continue to deny history and reality.
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  #143  
Old 09-19-2007, 05:50 AM
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and those whom I know in the UK tend to confirm this.
Which only goes to show that those of us who were there, at the time, see the same events differently.
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  #144  
Old 09-19-2007, 06:09 AM
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Which only goes to show that those of us who were there, at the time, see the same events differently.
Especially as neither of the people concerned ever talked about their feelings for each other in public. Yes, maybe a confidante of Camilla's might know how she feels for Andrew and for Charles but so far no confidante shared her knowledge with us, so everything is pure speculation.

But why speculate at all? We see two couples: Charles and Camilla, Andrew and Rosemary who in public behave friendly and appear to be in love with their spouse. Isn't that enough to be able to feel glad for them?
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  #145  
Old 09-19-2007, 07:48 AM
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Especially as neither of the people concerned ever talked about their feelings for each other in public. Yes, maybe a confidante of Camilla's might know how she feels for Andrew and for Charles but so far no confidante shared her knowledge with us, so everything is pure speculation.

But why speculate at all? We see two couples: Charles and Camilla, Andrew and Rosemary who in public behave friendly and appear to be in love with their spouse. Isn't that enough to be able to feel glad for them?
Quite right, well said Jo. Charles and Camilla both have 'true' friends, none of whom feel the need to speak out.
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  #146  
Old 09-29-2007, 03:15 PM
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I may be putting my foot squarely in my mouth here, had Camilla and Charles been allowed to marry back in the 70s, I think a great deal of heartache for everyone involved could have been avoided.

Camilla was the woman that Charles fell in love with and it is obvious she fell in love with him as well. I think both married other people that they were not in love with. Starting with the world wide sexual revolution of the 60s, society changed dramatically and they were both part of that change. Women were no longer going to remain virgins until marriage, at least in their majority numbers.

Diana might well have lived a happy and long life and enjoyed that life with someone suitable for her as an individual that could meet her needs and she his.

I realize there is a very long history of protocol associated with the British monoarchy and I do respect the institution, but perhaps the institution needs to evolve a bit as well?
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  #147  
Old 09-29-2007, 08:05 PM
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I may be putting my foot squarely in my mouth here, had Camilla and Charles been allowed to marry back in the 70s, I think a great deal of heartache for everyone involved could have been avoided.
I don't think it was that simple. They were much younger and at different stages of their lives, and Camilla was older than Charles and had different wants. She wanted to be married, and he wasn't read for that yet.

Quote:
Diana might well have lived a happy and long life and enjoyed that life with someone suitable for her as an individual that could meet her needs and she his.
I certainly agree that Charles should never have married Diana, as they were so ill-suited. They were both unhappy for so long and Diana never had the opportunity to know the sort of contentment and love and mutual support that Charles & Camilla now have. I think it's very sad that Diana never had that happiness.

Quote:
I realize there is a very long history of protocol associated with the British monoarchy and I do respect the institution, but perhaps the institution needs to evolve a bit as well?
Hear, hear! I consider that the institution does need to evolve at a faster rate than it has, but I think that was unlikely to happen under the very long reign of conservative traditionalist HM Elizabeth II. She has been much loved and respected for doing things exactly the way she has done them.
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  #148  
Old 09-29-2007, 10:38 PM
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I think the institution is evolving at the same rate as the rest of the world, it's just offset by several years in doing so.
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  #149  
Old 09-30-2007, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I don't think it was that simple. They were much younger and at different stages of their lives, and Camilla was older than Charles and had different wants. She wanted to be married, and he wasn't read for that yet.



I certainly agree that Charles should never have married Diana, as they were so ill-suited. They were both unhappy for so long and Diana never had the opportunity to know the sort of contentment and love and mutual support that Charles & Camilla now have. I think it's very sad that Diana never had that happiness.



Hear, hear! I consider that the institution does need to evolve at a faster rate than it has, but I think that was unlikely to happen under the very long reign of conservative traditionalist HM Elizabeth II. She has been much loved and respected for doing things exactly the way she has done them.
I dont think that when Charles and Camilla met that she was looking to get married at that point. I recently read in 'the Windsor Knot" that on the day they met (the infamous your grandfather and my great grandmother were lovers so how about it) Camilla took Charles home and 'had him for dessert' that very night. Yes it was 1972, but still this is not the mark of someone who is actively looking to settle down. I also think that alone, was enough to put her out of the running as far as the palace was concerned. She was never going to be the 'suitable girl to be the mother of the heir'. Luckily for both of them, they were allowed to marry later in life.
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  #150  
Old 09-30-2007, 10:39 AM
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I dont think that when Charles and Camilla met that she was looking to get married at that point. I recently read in 'the Windsor Knot" that on the day they met (the infamous your grandfather and my great grandmother were lovers so how about it) Camilla took Charles home and 'had him for dessert' that very night. Yes it was 1972, but still this is not the mark of someone who is actively looking to settle down. I also think that alone, was enough to put her out of the running as far as the palace was concerned. She was never going to be the 'suitable girl to be the mother of the heir'. Luckily for both of them, they were allowed to marry later in life.
I am confused about the timing you mentioned. I think Camilla first met Charles in 1971. Quoted by Charles himself they were introduced by Lucia Santa Cruz, his Cambridge girlfriend, but it seemed that Camilla and Charles did not start their courtship until 1972 summer. I think the hot affair probably started from the night club Annable when Andrew PB were posted to Germany which gave Camilla time and space to explore new relationships. I believe it was the case of "out of sight, out of mind".

IMO Camilla waited for Andrew PB to settle down for a long time, if Andrew PB did not marry her in 1973, she would have married someone else to ensure that she would set up her own family as soon as possbile. The idea of "marriage" was definately in Camilla's mind for a long time but she fell into love with Andrew PB and Prince Charles, thus she was in quite tricky situations. Actually I always wonder how Camilla can get herself into this? Luckily, the timing for Charles and Camilla is finally right and then they got married.
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  #151  
Old 09-30-2007, 10:57 AM
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Yeah, I agree that Camilla was really in love with APB. For whatever reason, APB was quite the "catch" as even Princess Anne had a crush on him. He was handsome, sporty, and wealthy. Maybe the young Camilla thought it was fun to see where things could go with the Prince, but she was stuck under the APB spell. From the Dimbleby bio, I had the impression that Charles was struck by Camilla from the word go, but he wasn't sure she was "the one" yet. In any case, he had his honorary grandfather telling him to "sow his wild oats".
Well, in the meantime, Camilla was crazy for APB and when he proposed she bit the bait. She could have no idea what Charles would do; he was in the navy, dating these other women, so how could she wait for him even if she wanted to?
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  #152  
Old 09-30-2007, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I don't think it was that simple. They were much younger and at different stages of their lives, and Camilla was older than Charles and had different wants. She wanted to be married, and he wasn't read for that yet.



I certainly agree that Charles should never have married Diana, as they were so ill-suited. They were both unhappy for so long and Diana never had the opportunity to know the sort of contentment and love and mutual support that Charles & Camilla now have. I think it's very sad that Diana never had that happiness.



Hear, hear! I consider that the institution does need to evolve at a faster rate than it has, but I think that was unlikely to happen under the very long reign of conservative traditionalist HM Elizabeth II. She has been much loved and respected for doing things exactly the way she has done them.
What evidence is there that Prince Charles wasn't ready to marry in 1973? What evidence there is points in the opposite direction. According to Jonathan Dimbleby (who has read the letters) the last letter that Charles wrote to Mountbatten in November 1972 before setting off on his over 8 month naval tour of duty talked of how he was intending to see Camilla on his return. i.e he was intending to introduce Camilla to the Queen for the first time at Balmoral in August 1973. But by then she had been married for a month. Besides which if Charles was so uninterested in marriage how come barely a year after November 1972 he was tentatively asking Lady Jane Wellesley (the Queen's approved candidate) whether she might marry him and being turned down?

What has always puzzled me is why when Andrew Parker Bowles started courting Camilla again (after dumping her some while before) Camilla never wrote to Charles to tell him. He supposedly 'discovered' about the engagement when reading the Times whilst on shore leave in one of the Caribbean ports. Which is why he was so upset. Of course we should remember that there was no satellite or mobile phone coverage at the time, so they could only keep in contact by letters sent via Buckingham Palace. But either Camilla never wrote Prince Charles a letter, which seems a rather offhand way to treat a prince, or she did and the Palace failed to pass it on.
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  #153  
Old 09-30-2007, 01:04 PM
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What has always puzzled me is why when Andrew Parker Bowles started courting Camilla again (after dumping her some while before) Camilla never wrote to Charles to tell him. He supposedly 'discovered' about the engagement when reading the Times whilst on shore leave in one of the Caribbean ports. Which is why he was so upset... But either Camilla never wrote Prince Charles a letter, which seems a rather offhand way to treat a prince, or she did and the Palace failed to pass it on.
Why do you know? Did Charles or Camilla ever speak about it?
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  #154  
Old 09-30-2007, 02:01 PM
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According to her post, it was because of reports that Charles discovered about the engagement when reading The Times. Maybe BellaFay will be able to tell us where she found that information, but it does sound as though she's based her statement on something concrete.
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  #155  
Old 09-30-2007, 04:10 PM
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I am confused about the timing you mentioned. I think Camilla first met Charles in 1971. Quoted by Charles himself they were introduced by Lucia Santa Cruz, his Cambridge girlfriend, but it seemed that Camilla and Charles did not start their courtship until 1972 summer. I think the hot affair probably started from the night club Annable when Andrew PB were posted to Germany which gave Camilla time and space to explore new relationships. I believe it was the case of "out of sight, out of mind".

IMO Camilla waited for Andrew PB to settle down for a long time, if Andrew PB did not marry her in 1973, she would have married someone else to ensure that she would set up her own family as soon as possbile. The idea of "marriage" was definately in Camilla's mind for a long time but she fell into love with Andrew PB and Prince Charles, thus she was in quite tricky situations. Actually I always wonder how Camilla can get herself into this? Luckily, the timing for Charles and Camilla is finally right and then they got married.
The book uses the date of October 1972 that the star crossed lovers met.
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  #156  
Old 09-30-2007, 05:19 PM
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What evidence is there that Prince Charles wasn't ready to marry in 1973? What evidence there is points in the opposite direction.
on the contrary, most evidence points to the fact that charles wasn't interested in marriage. his uncle was more interested in seeing him marry and wanted it to be his granddaughter. other courtiers were pushing him to get on with it.

part of me also feels that charles and camilla would be quite happy to live together out of wedlock today except that for all that happened in the past.
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  #157  
Old 09-30-2007, 05:23 PM
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Well, maybe Prince Charles fell in love with Camilla before she returned the feeling. I mean, she sure seems to have been enamored by Andrew. She married him when she got her big chance, and she had been pursuing him and waiting for him and trying to lure him by making him jealous. These are pretty tell-tale signs of love or infatuation or something like it, whatever love means. And she had a family with him. But maybe after they had tom and Laura, their marriage hit a bump and she found a willing companion in Charles. He adored her and treated her like a queen and it must have felt very nice to be the object of that kind of adoration again.
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  #158  
Old 09-30-2007, 05:27 PM
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i'm sure she did love andrew. anything i've read (and of course we can never know if it's all true) says that he had many affairs but this could be because he knew of the feelings/relationship between camilla and charles and that this was the "understanding" they had.
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  #159  
Old 09-30-2007, 05:46 PM
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I would be very interested in finding out how the rest of the Royal Family feels about it's newest member. I think the Queen was quite kind in giving Camilla an engagement ring that was four times more valuable than the one Diana chose and perhaps there are several reasons for that? I have never heard how the siblings feel about Camilla or Prince Philip? Are Camilla's children from her first marriage included in any of the Royal Family gatherings? I was thinking specifically about their Summer holiday at Balmoral and then at Christmas?
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  #160  
Old 09-30-2007, 06:08 PM
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i don't believe HM or other members have ever spoken publicly about their feelings but it's been reported that HM is "accepting" of the marriage.
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