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  #1221  
Old 05-09-2013, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bosco View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but a King or Queen can style a member of their family anyway they like. Camilla can be styled as the Duchess of Hogwarts if the King desires it.
I don't think so. A style (what a person is known as) comes from a title. In order for Camilla to be styled as The Duchess of Hogwarts, Charles would have had to be created the Duke of Hogwarts by his mother. We saw this kind of thing happen on William's wedding day. The Queen created him HRH The Duke of Cambridge which allows Kate to be known as HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. If the Queen had not done this, Kate would be styled as HRH The Princess William of Wales such as for example Princess Michael. Wives always take their titles and styles from their husband. With Charles being King with no other titles that Camilla can use, the only option there can be is Queen Consort.

I know it can get quite comfuzzling and trust me, it took me quite a long time to get a lot of this stuff straight.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:38 PM
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A style is just the manner someone is referred to. Titles are official but I don't want to high-jack the thread.
Perhaps this discussion should be moved to the Questions about British Titles and Styles. There's been excellent discussions in that thread pertaining to this Princess Consort thing.
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  #1223  
Old 05-09-2013, 07:01 PM
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Did I miss something? Have Diana's sons said anything about not approving of Camilla having the title Queen Consort (or Princess of Wales)? The only thing I've heard either of them say about her is that they love her, and that she makes their father happy.
That is also my question. I don't remember Prince William or Prince Harry ever saying anything about what Camilla's future title should be. I also don't think this princess consort or DOC title was created because of some concern about what her sons would think , but rather because of the public's understandably strong feelings about the late Princess of Wales.

I actually think using a different title for the Duchess of Cornwall was a good idea. I'm not sure about the princess consort versus queen consort, but the way the daily Mail and other tabloids blast across the headlines that 'Camilla to be queen ' and how this starts a series of negative inflammatory statements even though she actually would never be Queen rather the consort of the King , I think it is probably better to use a different title like either Princess Camilla or Princess consort. This of course will set a precedent for the next wife of the King of England.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sthreats View Post
I actually think using a different title for the Duchess of Cornwall was a good idea. I'm not sure about the princess consort versus queen consort, but the way the daily Mail and other tabloids blast across the headlines that 'Camilla to be queen ' and how this starts a series of negative inflammatory statements even though she actually would never be Queen rather the consort of the King , I think it is probably better to use a different title like either Princess Camilla or Princess consort. This of course will set a precedent for the next wife of the King of England.
The DM gets a load of inflammatory statements in the comments every time Camilla is mentioned, regardless of whether they also mention her as the future queen (consort). It seems like some people just want to hang around waiting for her to get mentioned so they can rag on her. The same can be said of other individuals, both royal and otherwise, on many newspaper sites. It isn't actually necessarily a reflection on what the consensus is regarding that individual.

I wouldn't like to see Camilla become Princess Consort because it diminishes her, sets a precedent, and goes against a lot of history and tradition. However, I think whatever they do end up going with is going to be based on how the couple and Camilla herself are polling around the time of ascension.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:03 PM
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What would the public reaction be if, when Charles becomes King, William and Harry jointly put out an official statement saying they have no problem with Camilla being styled "Her Majesty" because she is their father's wife? Would that end the argument?
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:09 PM
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I doubt it. They have accepted her as it is...hasn't made a difference.


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  #1227  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by COESpiral View Post
What would the public reaction be if, when Charles becomes King, William and Harry jointly put out an official statement saying they have no problem with Camilla being styled "Her Majesty" because she is their father's wife? Would that end the argument?
I really don't think the public's reaction has that much to do with what Prince William and Prince Harry say. I think that the public has strong feelings about the late princes Diana and I think it has been wise to not "rub the public's face with the new wife".

In terms of the previous poster's statement about comments in the Daily Mail, if you look carefully, articles that focus on Camilla being future queen have a much more negative reaction than articles about her going to visit sick children or reading books to little kids
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  #1228  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:21 PM
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If was a woman other than Camilla the public wouldn't even think about the issue.


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  #1229  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:28 PM
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It is interesting, I was on several sites that are more political than "fashion", I thought she looked great at the Opening of Parliament, but there was vehemence about her being queen. I used to care, I do not now, Perhaps, it is all the years of the BRF hypocrisy biting them in the ....
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  #1230  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by COESpiral View Post
What would the public reaction be if, when Charles becomes King, William and Harry jointly put out an official statement saying they have no problem with Camilla being styled "Her Majesty" because she is their father's wife? Would that end the argument?
It won't happen because the firm is not a democracy.

IMHO if (big if) Camilla becomes Queen or HM we will see the rest of the family supporting her. We will not get their statements or press releases. We will see her acting like a queen with members of the family and public. Elizabeth II has shown how well that works. She became a Queen and proved she was a Queen with her actions.

On the other hand, whatever happens, the later Diana years have taught us that at least some people in the firm think unnamed sources at the palace think that releasing statements that undermine an unpopular decision can be very effective.

I hope it does not go there. Once in my lifetime was enough. Yech.
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  #1231  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:42 PM
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I have read some people's views on other sites that say that regardless of what Willian and Harry say in reality they don't like her and blame her for the hurt she caused their mother - even though they don't know either William or Harry or what really went on in the marriage that William and Harry do know.

So if they came out and said 'Queen Camilla is the right name for our step-mother' there would still be people out there who would claim that they don't really mean that.
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  #1232  
Old 05-10-2013, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
On the day of WnK's wedding I believe it was E news that provided a long list of the Queen's other titles and there were a lot. Is it possible for Camilla to take one of these titles hen they belong to Charles in a similar fashion that she took her current title from him being the Duke of Cornwall?
I am all for a Queen Camilla, I'm just asking if its possible.
This approach has been argued in the titles forum. I believe (although I'm sure Bertie will correct me if I'm wrong) that stuff like "Lord of Mann" or "Duke of Lancaster" was either a style and not a title or simply didn't have a female equivalent (the female monarch is the Duke, not Duchess, of Lancaster).

Personally, I'd rather see Camilla go by Duchess of Lancaster or something similar than Princess Consort.
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  #1233  
Old 05-10-2013, 03:31 AM
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I am not sure but I think that all the titles Prince Charles holds as Prince of Wales immediately devolve to the new Heir and (hopefully) PoW . . . William. Charles becomes HM the King and William, among other titles, will be the Duke of Cornwall which means Catherine will then hold that and all Camilla's other present titles?

This leaves us with HM Queen Consort or H? Princess Consort . . . I think.
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  #1234  
Old 05-10-2013, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
I am not sure but I think that all the titles Prince Charles holds as Prince of Wales immediately devolve to the new Heir and (hopefully) PoW . . . William. Charles becomes HM the King and William, among other titles, will be the Duke of Cornwall which means Catherine will then hold that and all Camilla's other present titles?

This leaves us with HM Queen Consort or H? Princess Consort . . . I think.
Charles is currently the Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester, the Duke of Cornwall, the Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.

None of these titles are hereditary in the traditional sense. They do not pass from father to son, they (mostly) pass from heir apparent to heir apparent.

- Prince of Wales is a title for the heir apparent. The Earl of Chester is linked to this title, as the Earl is always the PoW (since the 14th century)
- Prince and Great Steward of Scotland, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Lord of the Isles, nd Baron of Renfrew are all Scottish titles. With the exception of the Lord of the Isles, they're all titles for the heir apparent. Lord of the Isles is a title for the eldest male child of the monarch
- Duke of Cornwall is a title that automatically passes on to the monarch's eldest male child if he is the heir apparent

When Charles becomes king none of these titles will be his to use anymore - and therefore none will be his wife's to use by courtesy. The only person who will be able to use these titles (some automatically, and some when he's created as such) will be William. Catherine, by extension, will be able to use the titles that Camilla currently has access to.

The only title that the female consort of the monarch traditionally can use is Queen Consort. The monarch does have other titles and styles, it's just a debate of whether or not the consort has access to use their female equivalent.

The big titles/styles that Charles will have are King, Duke of Normandy, Lord of Mann, and Duke of Lancaster. With the exception of king/queen, the monarch has traditionally used the male equivalent of these other titles, regardless of the monarch's gender. So, the debate becomes a question of can Camilla be known as Duchess of Normandy (or Lancaster) or Lady of Mann instead of Queen.

The problem with Princess Consort is that none of the monarchy's titles are "Prince," therefore there is no princess title (yet) for Camilla to use instead. There's also the question of if she becomes Princess instead of Queen, does that mean that they're doing away with the Queen consort title? What precedent is it setting?

The one thing that I could think of is if they make Camilla a Princess in her own right (similar to Philip), and while she will hold the title of Queen Consort she uses the title of Princess instead because it is something that she holds in her own right, instead of by courtesy.

I kind of suspect that when the whole Princess Consort thing was first released it was done so without a realization of how much people were going to debate and obsess over it in the years to come.
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  #1235  
Old 05-10-2013, 05:30 AM
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The whole kerfuffle seems more and more absurd the more it is agonised over !

I hope that when the time comes Camilla will simply {instantaneously} become Queen Consort the moment her lawful husband becomes King, {and be accorded her correct title}. Involving Parliaments in the UK, and elsewhere seems ridiculous and a waste of everybody's time and money.

Simply to appease a few Diana 'diehards', who will never be satisfied, whatever title Camilla uses !
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Old 05-10-2013, 06:35 AM
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Agreed and Camilla will be Queen Consort. Frankly Charles should have just kept his mouth shut about this Princess Consort alternative because it is Charles himself who is/was the catalyst for this whole mess.
I wonder if Sally Osman who recently came on board as PR chief for Charles and Camilla might be the person to transition the unwieldy "Princess" off the website and out of people's minds. The only thing I could learn about her online was that in her time at the BBC she walked away from some very ugly situations unscathed. It's a silly expression, but I'm cautiously optimistic.
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:02 PM
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I found some Articles on Google News Archives from 98/99 in which a poll was taken and in the article it said that that Most Britons supported Charles relationship with Camilla! Another Poll in 2001 said that more people's increasingly wanted Charles to marry Camilla. Very Interesting! so why did people's opinions suddenly change in 2005 after the marriage took place?
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  #1238  
Old 05-11-2013, 07:04 PM
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Dear me, I thought that perhaps time had sorted this. Everyday people get married; sometimes its great and sometimes it isn't; sometimes the person you love just isn't there to marry and so you marry someone else; its life and it happens.

If family members can handle it and be happy for the result, what has it to do with anyone else?

Let it lie, for goodness sake. Those of you quoting adultery and sin, should consider the New Testament and it's promotion of forgiveness.

They offered up their act of contrition at their wedding blessing in St George's, so that means the Church has blessed them as well.

I think that Charles and Camilla are good together and the real tragedy is that they were not together in the first place.
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  #1239  
Old 05-12-2013, 02:36 AM
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I have always been a supporter of Camilla, I just think Charles made a mistake floating 'princess consort'. I realise he thought he needed to for political reasons but at the end of the day Camilla will be Queen, both officially and with the people.
I, too, have always been a supporter of Camilla, but I think we need to look at the 'princess consort' idea through 2005 eyes, not 8 years later, with the benefit of hindsight.

Though I was squealing with excitement when I heard the news, back in 2005 there was still a lot of hostility towards Camilla. People who have now come to not just accept her but actively like her a lot were still very negative about her then. Diana and her death were still fresh in people's minds because she was still in the newspapers regularly. The inquiries and inquests were still underway. Further, though we now know what a splendid job Camilla has done as Duchess of Cornwall, both in her own right and supporting Charles, and we have seen what a wonderful difference her support has made to him, at the time the engagement was announced she was still largely an unknown quantity.

So, all in all, I think it was probably a smart move announcing it was "intended" that she be known as Princess Consort when Charles is King. It quelled some ire and bought her time to prove herself. And since it was only "intended", it is not set in stone and she can in fact be known as Her Majesty the Queen from the start.
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post

I, too, have always been a supporter of Camilla, but I think we need to look at the 'princess consort' idea through 2005 eyes, not 8 years later, with the benefit of hindsight.

Though I was squealing with excitement when I heard the news, back in 2005 there was still a lot of hostility towards Camilla. People who have now come to not just accept her but actively like her a lot were still very negative about her then. Diana and her death were still fresh in people's minds because she was still in the newspapers regularly. The inquiries and inquests were still underway. Further, though we now know what a splendid job Camilla has done as Duchess of Cornwall, both in her own right and supporting Charles, and we have seen what a wonderful difference her support has made to him, at the time the engagement was announced she was still largely an unknown quantity.

So, all in all, I think it was probably a smart move announcing it was "intended" that she be known as Princess Consort when Charles is King. It quelled some ire and bought her time to prove herself. And since it was only "intended", it is not set in stone and she can in fact be known as Her Majesty the Queen from the start.
That's really well said.

I think to a degree commenting on her future titles was potentially harmful to said titles in the long run, because media and the Internet has made it so that our memories can be much longer. Had this happened in the pre-Internet days it's likely that the Princess Consort issue would have been forgotten and as Camilla proved herself and people moved on, they would have had more leeway in the future.

If the Princess Consort thing comes to pass, I hope they handle it in a way that doesn't make an awkward precedent (and is done in a way that Camilla is comfortable with). If it doesn't, then I hope there's no backlash amongst people who were clinging to the Princess idea.
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