Charles and Camilla - The Early Years (1970s)

[Skydragon]

From what I've read, Lord Mountbatten encouraged Charles to have fun, but pick a good one for keeps. Camilla fell into the fun category. Also, just think about it from a common sense point of view... Do you recall when Charles and Diana got engaged, and all the fuss made over her 'eligibility,' etc? THAT was in 1981...now imagine how Camilla would have done in the early 70's. Sorry, don't think so.

I remember the press making a fuss about Diana apparently being a virgin and Mountbatten didn't suggest Charles pick 'a good one for keeps', at least that is unlike any of the quotes I have read. Even if he had, he slipped up with Diana! The point was, it was 'other's with their own agenda, whom did not feel Camilla was suitable and time showed them to be complete idiots.

As for the bracelet, personally, I don't care what the initials stand for or what they are, the point is most women would not take kindly to our husband to be giving a 'former' GF a gift of jewelry. Jewelry is a very personal gift, especially under these circumstances (if it had initials, etc). That says something...

If jewellery is a 'very personal gift', then there are many men and women in trouble, especially my husband and I. One exchange of gifts from and to a former male friend reads - To my Darling ------ with all my love. XXX. (on the presentation card). The watch I gave is engraved with 'To my Darling ----, I am always here to ........
Jewellery, is not considered to be personal, IMO, it is the sort of thing you give for however many years service, an 18th birthday, someone leaving, all normally engraved.

Oops, and one more point. If Camilla didn't intend to maintain a presence in Charles' life, why was she so keen to befriend Diana, ask her whether she planned to hunt, etc. Hmmm... Sorry, she knew what she was doing all along.

Probably because Charles asked all his old friends to befriend Diana and welcome her into the fold. Of course she was asked by many of his friends if she intended to hunt with them, she had afterall given Charles the impression that she was into the country scene.

However, I think we are both straying far from the remit of this thread, which is of course Charles and Camilla's Love Story, the Early Days, which means long before Diana came onto the scene.

 

[ysbel]

I Probably because Charles asked all his old friends to befriend Diana and welcome her into the fold. Of course she was asked by many of his friends if she intended to hunt with them, she had afterall given Charles the impression that she was into the country scene.

Yes, I can believe that. Charles was known in the 70s for having former girlfriends as friends after a breakup . He's still friends with former girlfriends today.

As I mentioned earlier, that tendancy of Charles was going to be problematic because when things go wrong, one usually confides in friends and if they are former girlfriends, then there is always a risk of the friend turning into something more. In the case of C&C, both of their marriages went sour so the temptation was high on both ends.

I personally take with a hefty grain of salt anything written about it after 1989. I think too many authors (and Charles, Camilla, and Diana) had a hefty motive of creative re-writing of history. I found one later statement by Diana about the engagement to be wrong and I imagine that with the motive of trying to explain what happened, there are many more creative re-writings, not only by Diana. Another creative re-writing, I believe, was that Camilla was always the love of Charles' life.

 

[Monika_]

Skydragon...I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Lord Mountbatten's advice on the subject has been well documented and I never implied that my words were a direct quote.

As for jewelry, the meaning depends on the context of the exchange, so it can be very personal indeed.

As for the fold, well Camilla had no business being in it after Charles got engaged. If Charles didn't make that clear, Camilla should have had the class and discretion to back off.

Sorry, but that's how I feel and, as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Elspeth]

The actual quote from Mountbatten is documented in this post:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f44/c-c-love-story-early-days-17276-5.html#post778495

 

[Skydragon]

Another creative re-writing, I believe, was that Camilla was always the love of Charles' life.

I agree with almost all of your post. It is not only Charles who did/does maintain friendships with old girlfriends and I see nothing wrong with it. But then I would say that as most of our set dated each other at one time or another! I think Charles experienced a particularly intense type of puppy love and knowing that permission and acceptance from his elders was required, tried to satisy everyone but himself.

I am an old romantic, I believe that everyone was measured against the fun loving, capable, intriguing, self confident Camilla and everyone failed to live up tothe standard that had been set. I think they maintained a friendship that was misunderstood by someone who never formed lasting friendships herself. Unless someone has had experience of long lasting deep friendships, it is hard to appreciate the bond that will always exist between such friends.

 

[Skydragon]

SAs for the fold, well Camilla had no business being in it after Charles got engaged. If Charles didn't make that clear, Camilla should have had the class and discretion to back off.

I don't think it would be a good start to any marriage for one or other of the partners to ban the others friends. Camilla wasn't the only 'friend' Diana objected to.

 

[Monika_]

Sorry, but it's too convenient to categorize Camilla as his 'friend.' She had a strong hold on him and she knew it. As for other friends Diana may have objected to, Camilla has been reported to do the same thing. BOth have been reported to object to hangers-on. Recently it's been reported that a close female aide of Charles is leaving because of tension between her and Camilla.

When two people marry, there's a natural settling process where friends are concerned...some stay in the fold and some go. A true friend knows their place and a female friend does not offer another woman's husband a shoulder to cry on. Camilla had her own husband and children to worry about.

 

[Warren]

A reminder that this thread is about Charles and Camilla "the early days". It is not about Diana and Camilla. We have a whole Diana subforum where Diana's history can be discussed.

thanks.

Warren
British Forums moderator

 

[Skydragon]

Sorry, but it's too convenient to categorize Camilla as his 'friend.' She had a strong hold on him and she knew it. As for other friends Diana may have objected to, Camilla has been reported to do the same thing. BOth have been reported to object to hangers-on. Recently it's been reported that a close female aide of Charles is leaving because of tension between her and Camilla.

If you read the articles about the departure of Elizabeth in any paper but the Mail, you will be able to find out the actual reason that she has decided to leave, which has more to do with looking after her elderly mother than 'tensions'. You say both have been reported to object to hangers on, but I seem to have missed all of these stories. Charles still has a multitude of female friends and employees, non of which he has been told to stay away from, IMO. Just as well Camilla remained as one of his friends, considering how things turned out. The very thought of a wife deciding who her husband can be friends with is disgraceful, IMO, and the marriage would be doomed to failure.

When two people marry, there's a natural settling process where friends are concerned...some stay in the fold and some go. A true friend knows their place and a female friend does not offer another woman's husband a shoulder to cry on. Camilla had her own husband and children to worry about.

Yes, a true friend befriends the new wife, asks her if she is going to participate in events they all enjoy. I don't know about 'knows her place', that would be a strange unequal friendship. My married friends, male and female can cry on my shoulder any time because that is part and parcel of being a friend!

 

[Skydragon]

A reminder that this thread is about Charles and Camilla "the early days". It is not about Diana and Camilla. We have a whole Diana subforum where Diana's history can be discussed.

thanks.

Warren
British Forums moderator

Sorry Warren, please delete me if you need. It took ages for my post to load, which I started writing before your warning.

 

[Monika_]

No problem...sorry.

 

[agatha1939]

Skydragon...

Skydragon, may I ask you what is your opinion about C&C story? I mean, from your posts I got the impression that you believe Camila was Charle's love and he "lost her" because of BP and royal pressure. But then, when somebody says that Charles and Camila were in love and that's the reason his marriage with Diana didn't have a chance, you say they were just friends and Diana was crazy for thinking something else. But later again, when people discuss C&C today, it's back to they are in love since they were young... I mean no disrespect at all, I just want to know what you think about it, I like your posts very much although we have very diferent POV in general .

THAT was the reason I asked this question in the first place, to know (nosy nosy nosy ) if C&C were in love when young or not. It makes a huge difference in my POV... if they were just friends at that time then there's a HUGE spin being made by Clarence House today to "justify" their story to the public, and that's fine, that's their job. But people should recognize that, specially here in this forum where people are intelligent and very well informed (I would hope so LOL). And then yes, I could agree that maybe Diana over-reacted with their friendship, although I still believe it would be much more difficut for one person (Charles) to work on the marriage if there is a "better" option (Camila) waiting on the side, but this is another discussion.

If they were in love though, then it doesn't matter how "crazy and difficult and depressed and problematic and needy and whatever else" people say Diana was (not my opinion), C&D marriage didn't have a chance. Of course Diana could have behaved better, but that's not the point here. I think most people would agree that it would be almost impossible to find the love of your life, your soul mate, the one and only person who really understand you and NOT do anything about it, specially when the other person feels the same about you and is not in a love relationship with her husband. This is the whole point, how come C&C were only friends through all these years where Chales were "miserable, trying with all his strength to save his marriage, facing a horrible woman who didn't care at all for him, etc" and still they repressd their "love" and were just friends? Am I missing something here?

And I agree, Camila and APB marriage had a huge effect in this story... she probably knew he was a cheater before marriage but to face that everyday would be a huge turn off to any woman... you see, she also was dealing with a bad husband and had somebody "better" on her side. She was of course, much more mature than Diana, she was willing to keep a "good" marriage for her kids, her position, etc, but again, I don't want to discuss the "horrible" Diana and her "horrible" acts, I really would like to understand what is the truth between C&C, was it a friendship that become love AFTER Diana, or was it love that was always there, before, during and after?

Sorry for the long post and for being so... nosy!!!

 

[Skydragon]

Skydragon, may I ask you what is your opinion about C&C story? I mean, from your posts I got the impression that you believe Camila was Charle's love and he "lost her" because of BP and royal pressure. But then, when somebody says that Charles and Camila were in love and that's the reason his marriage with Diana didn't have a chance, you say they were just friends and Diana was crazy for thinking something else. But later again, when people discuss C&C today, it's back to they are in love since they were young... I mean no disrespect at all, I just want to know what you think about it, I like your posts very much although we have very diferent POV in general .

I believe that they were very much in love but accepted it was a love that couldn't go anywhere. As a result they settled for second best within their relationship, that of being friends. I believe it is entirely possible to put that love into the shadows and leave it there, finding real value in friendship. For a new partner, it is natural to be slightly jealous of all the memories your partner shares with other friends, but for some the jealousy of things you were not party too, can be overwhelming and has destroyed many a marriage and friendship. My second husband was married to someone else before we met, does that mean he loves me any less or that he didn't love his first wife?

We all, throughout our lives love many people in different ways. I can well imagine Charles' dismay when Diana didn't get on, not just with Camilla but any of his friends. That would be like finding the partner of your dreams and then realising you had absolutely nothing in common!

Had Charles and Diana not started to fall out, (some reports suggest their first rows were more about Charles fulfilling his work commitments or shooting than about his friendship with Camilla), I don't believe that Charles & Camilla would have gone beyond friendship. When a person is constantly rowing with their partner, most turn to their friends.

So with or without the Clarence House spin, I have always believed they loved each other from the word go, I also always believed they were able to put that love for each other to one side and become close, reliable, through thick or thin, friends and only friends. To me their love was rekindled through listening to each others problems with their partners.

I think most people would agree that it would be almost impossible to find the love of your life, your soul mate, the one and only person who really understand you and NOT do anything about it, specially when the other person feels the same about you and is not in a love relationship with her husband.

On that we will have to disagree, I think it is entirely possible and IMO happens to millions of people! If they both want to upset the applecart, there is always divorce.

 

[ysbel]

Well I'm not skydragon but I see two different types of spins here: one is the spin if Charles and Camilla were in love it didn't matter how emotionally unstable Diana was, the marriage was going to fail; and the other is that if Diana was that emotionally unstable, it didn't matter what Charles' relationship with Camilla and his other friends were, the marriage was going to fail.

I've seen otherwise healthy marriages survive an affair and I've seen unhealthy marriages with an emotionally unstable partner survive. The longstanding marriages with an emotionally unstable partner were torture for those inside the marriage so I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

You can look at the spin of C&C being true loves in two ways: one is that they have sacrificed so much to be together, people only understand if the sacrifice was for your one true love; the other way to look at it is that Diana avoided taking responsibility for the effect her own behavior had on the downfall of her marriage and she was trying to let herself off the hook for her own actions when she told the world that she never had a chance because Charles was in love with Camilla. If she told herself that there was nothing she could do about Charles and Camilla, that gave her a convenient excuse not to work on some of her behavior problems that were affecting her quality of life in general and the quality of life of those closest to her including Charles and her sons.

Both Charles and Diana could have been spinning at the same time. I simply have a strong sense that Diana was avoiding facing up to some of the more difficult emotional problems she was facing, regardless of whether Charles was having an affair or not.

 

[MARG]

That is the whole point, by whom?
Camilla's presence from day one is only according to Diana. Even the story of the cufflinks was distorted, the C&C did not stand for Charles & Camilla.

Sorry, I missed the connection. What did the C&C stand for?

 

[Skydragon]

Sorry, I missed the connection. What did the C&C stand for?

I was trying to find the passage in a book that says I believe, that the C's were in fact the Chanel logo.

 

[TheTruth]

The story of the cufflinks is still very uncertain. It's certainly the Chanel sign, with the two C but it can always have the meaning of Charles and Camilla. An hypothesis doesn't neutralize another.

 

[Skydragon]

The story of the cufflinks is still very uncertain. It's certainly the Chanel sign, with the two C but it can always have the meaning of Charles and Camilla. An hypothesis doesn't neutralize another.

True, but surely if they were a 'personal' personal gift, they would bear the initials G&F (Gladys and Fred), their nicknames for one another.

One almost gets the feeling that if they had been Diamond set, there would have been the suggestion that the Diamonds meant eternal love!

 

[agatha1939]

Well I'm not skydragon but I see two different types of spins here: one is the spin if Charles and Camilla were in love it didn't matter how emotionally unstable Diana was, the marriage was going to fail; and the other is that if Diana was that emotionally unstable, it didn't matter what Charles' relationship with Camilla and his other friends were, the marriage was going to fail.

That is true, I can agree with that. It seems there are 2 spins going on very strong, one when people believe that Diana didn't matter, C&C were so in love that Charles and Diana never had a chance. And the other one (very strong in this forum I may say) when people believe Camila didn't matter, Diana was so instable that because of that, her wedding didn't have a chance. Like everythning in life, it is probably something in the middle.

IMO, it's exactly because I don't believe that Camila was a just "fling" for Charles that I find very hard to believe that they stayed just as friends. I know it can happen, everything is possible, but I don't think it's that common and *I* cannot believe it happened in that case. If they were really in love, and both in a loveless marriage, it would "make sense" FOR THEM to live whatever they were feeling. It doesn't mean they wanted other people to suffer because of that.

I used to be 100% pro-Diana and put all the blame on Charles, but I got older (LOL) and now I understand better about relationships. Diana behaved very bad, she could - and should - have changed HER behaviour to try to get her husband "back" and if that failed, then divorce him. She had children with Charles and she should have put them in 1st place, not her. But I also cannot make myself to believe that she entered a marriage with a man who had only a friend like some people believe, I still believe C&C were in love BEFORE and WHEN PW married Diana and his "plan" (please, note the quotes) was to have a "good" marriage with Diana - like Camila had with APB - but his heart was Camila's.

IMO, it doesn't matter Diana was fighting with him about his duties, shooting, etc, these kind of arguments happen in many marriages and they don't end because of them. The same thing I said about Diana applies to Charles, it doesn't matter she was spoiled, naive, immature, whatever, he married her, he had to deal with her OR divorce her. IMO, the fact that Charles knew he had Camila as his love (not just a friend) changed the whole thing, not only for Diana, but most importantly for him.

Well, I think we'll never know what exactly happened, so many spins from so many places and people...

 

[Skydragon]

IMO, it's exactly because I don't believe that Camila was a just "fling" for Charles that I find very hard to believe that they stayed just as friends. I know it can happen, everything is possible, but I don't think it's that common and *I* cannot believe it happened in that case. If they were really in love, and both in a loveless marriage, it would "make sense" FOR THEM to live whatever they were feeling. It doesn't mean they wanted other people to suffer because of that.

Many men and women are able to stay friends with ex girl/boyfriends, fiance/fiancee, wives and husbands, just from people I know or have known, I believe it is fairly common. Many have passed beyond the need to leap into bed with one another, they are content and secure to remain friends. IMO, to say that they could not simply have remained friends is the same as saying it is impossible for women to have a non sexual friendship with a man, or a man a non sexual friendship with a woman.

IMO, it doesn't matter Diana was fighting with him about his duties, shooting, etc, these kind of arguments happen in many marriages and they don't end because of them.

Yes arguments can happen within any marriage, but when they are constant and neither side can see the others, there is no hope for a solution and the gap gets wider.

 

[agatha1939]

Many men and women are able to stay friends with ex girl/boyfriends, fiance/fiancee, wives and husbands, just from people I know or have known, I believe it is fairly common. Many have passed beyond the need to leap into bed with one another, they are content and secure to remain friends. IMO, to say that they could not simply have remained friends is the same as saying it is impossible for women to have a non sexual friendship with a man, or a man a non sexual friendship with a woman.

Of course they can, I have more male friends than females and there's nothing sexual between us, believe me! And even older boyfriends, I still keep contact with them and I am close to some them. However, the LOVE I felt for them is really in my past and I am not sure that's what happened to C&C.

Camila may have felt the same way, maybe she really didn't feel LOVE for Charles at that time, maybe he really didn't feel LOVE (man-woman love, not friendship love) for Camila at that time, I just find hard to believe in that because of what happened later, because they stayed together and VERY MUCH in love. I am not saying that this is exactly what happened, I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows. It is just my feeling that they were in love (meaning, they were lovers) all that time, before, during and after C&D marriage.

But the objective of my question was to find out (nosyyy) the early days, and IMO they were not in love at that time, and I think that was THE problem. When they figured out how much they loved each other, she was married to APB and then there was no way for them to stay together. So, I don't believe the Clarence House spin that they met and fell in love and were forbidden to marry. And yes, I don't believe Diana tried everything to save her marriage, but I also don't believe Charles wanted to have a real marriage to Diana. Well, maybe he wanted a "marriage" to Diana, but not real love. And he didn't get it either, because Diana didn't know how to deal with that situation and made everything worse.

But, it's just my opinion!

 

[milla Ca]

Many men and women are able to stay friends with ex girl/boyfriends, fiance/fiancee, wives and husbands, just from people I know or have known, I believe it is fairly common. Many have passed beyond the need to leap into bed with one another, they are content and secure to remain friends. IMO, to say that they could not simply have remained friends is the same as saying it is impossible for women to have a non sexual friendship with a man, or a man a non sexual friendship with a woman.

I agree Skydragon, i think it can be great and a long staying friendship if both ex-partners stop to love each other and both have a ´new´ content life.

In the C&C case i think it is different in some ways.

They made the decision to be ´only´ friends not because they stopped to love each other but because of the pressure that a future King has to marry a suitable woman. They didn´t want to lose each other so they went the way again they did some time before, after Camilla´s marriage ( 1973-79), and they were ´only´ best friends.
I´m not sure if Camilla was happy with this agreement but i´m sure Charles wasn´t, although it was his wish to make his marriage work and i´m also sure he was faithful the first years of his marriage.

I think Camilla was the one he always wanted and he always longed for, if there wasn´t the pressure around him, he hadn´t give her up (as his partner and lover) for only one moment in his life.

 

[Skydragon]

Camila may have felt the same way, maybe she really didn't feel LOVE for Charles at that time, maybe he really didn't feel LOVE (man-woman love, not friendship love) for Camila at that time, I just find hard to believe in that because of what happened later, because they stayed together and VERY MUCH in love. I am not saying that this is exactly what happened, I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows. It is just my feeling that they were in love (meaning, they were lovers) all that time, before, during and after C&D marriage.

I think you may have misunderstood the point I was trying to make earlier, that Charles and Camilla loved each other but decided friendship was the path to follow, at that time. I don't believe they were lovers at the beginning of the marriage, apart from anything else when would they have found the time.

 

[TheTruth]

I think Camilla was the one he always wanted and he always longed for, if there wasn´t the pressure around him, he hadn´t give her up (as his partner and lover) for only one moment in his life.

The poor guy didn't, she married APB first. This whole fiasco happened because of a flood of unfortunate circumstances.
To me, Camilla only became the one he always wanted from the moment he realized how bad the marriage with Diana was. Even then, I'm not sure he thought she should have been the woman of his life.

 

[milla Ca]

The poor guy didn't, she married APB first. This whole fiasco happened because of a flood of unfortunate circumstances.
To me, Camilla only became the one he always wanted from the moment he realized how bad the marriage with Diana was. Even then, I'm not sure he thought she should have been the woman of his life.

Sorry,i couldn´t agree less, Kelly!

 

[agatha1939]

I agree Skydragon, i think it can be great and a long staying friendship if both ex-partners stop to love each other and both have a ´new´ content life.

In the C&C case i think it is different in some ways.

They made the decision to be ´only´ friends not because they stopped to love each other but because of the pressure that a future King has to marry a suitable woman. They didn´t want to lose each other so they went the way again they did some time before, after Camilla´s marriage ( 1973-79), and they were ´only´ best friends.

I think you said it better than I did! That's what I was trying to say, of course it is possible for a man and woman to become friends after a love relationship, but only if they "stopped" loving each other (man-woman love) and then developed a (love) friendship.

However, IMO, that was NOT what happened to C&C. They didn't have a love story, stopped loving each other (man-woman) for whatever reason and then became friends. And how would they be "only friends" if they still have that love inside them? Aren't they soul-mates? Isn't she the only one who really loved him as a man and not as POW? And on top of that, with 2 loveless marriages between them? Is that possible?

So, they were in love when young, then they changed that strong feeling to a friendship (how do you that by the way?), then Camila faced a "bad" marriage and still, they only stayed friends, then Charles was facing unstable Diana and still, they were only friends. And then, only after Diana and the marriage "broke down", only then, that friendship became love again?

Really???

 

[Skydragon]

The poor guy didn't, she married APB first. This whole fiasco happened because of a flood of unfortunate circumstances.
To me, Camilla only became the one he always wanted from the moment he realized how bad the marriage with Diana was. Even then, I'm not sure he thought she should have been the woman of his life.

As you might imagine, I agree with milla Ca on this.

 

[TheTruth]

I see ... alone against the world. You should have expected this from me .

 

[milla Ca]

I think you said it better than I did! That's what I was trying to say, of course it is possible for a man and woman to become friends after a love relationship, but only if they "stopped" loving each other (man-woman love) and then developed a (love) friendship.

However, IMO, that was NOT what happened to C&C. They didn't have a love story, stopped loving each other (man-woman) for whatever reason and then became friends. And how would they be "only friends" if they still have that love inside them? Aren't they soul-mates? Isn't she the only one who really loved him as a man and not as POW? And on top of that, with 2 loveless marriages between them? Is that possible?

So, they were in love when young, then they changed that strong feeling to a friendship (how do you that by the way?), then Camila faced a "bad" marriage and still, they only stayed friends, then Charles was facing unstable Diana and still, they were only friends. And then, only after Diana and the marriage "broke down", only then, that friendship became love again?

Really???

Maybe i´m too romantic, wearing my pink glasses..., but i think how they go through this all together is what real friends, lovers, soulmates always should do: walk all the stony ways of life together, wanting always the best for the other one, and stay in love together....
But it doesn´t work very often, i know, and therefore the C&C story is one of the great love storys of our time!

 

[Skydragon]

I think you said it better than I did! That's what I was trying to say, of course it is possible for a man and woman to become friends after a love relationship, but only if they "stopped" loving each other (man-woman love) and then developed a (love) friendship. They didn't have a love story, stopped loving each other (man-woman) for whatever reason and then became friends. And how would they be "only friends" if they still have that love inside them?

Why would they have to stop loving one another? I still 'love' my first fiance, just in a different way, which is why we are best friends.

Aren't they soul-mates? Isn't she the only one who really loved him as a man and not as POW? And on top of that, with 2 loveless marriages between them? Is that possible?

Many friends are soul mates (whatever that means) so why on earth not. Because she loved the man rather than the title, she was able to take the decision she thought would be better for Charles in the long run.

So, they were in love when young, then they changed that strong feeling to a friendship (how do you that by the way?),

It's easy, depending how much you loved the person in the first place! Better to see the person you love happy with someone else than cause them hardship. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you can't be friends.

then Camila faced a "bad" marriage and still, they only stayed friends, then Charles was facing unstable Diana and still, they were only friends. And then, only after Diana and the marriage "broke down", only then, that friendship became love again? Really???

Yes really.

You seem to be straying from your original question, into the realms of when, why and who had the first affair, when the marriage broke down, who was to blame etc, etc. I think there is a thread still running discussing Diana and her affairs. It appears from your posts, IMO, that you had already made your mind up about Charles and Camilla's love story, before asking your question.