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  #841  
Old 01-05-2009, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
but it really makes me furious when bad behavior is rewarded as spectacularly as it has been with the Charles and Camilla situation.
I would hope that if any of us could imagine the upset/angst/distress endured by Charles & Camilla, we might be able to feel a little pity for them and a gladness that at last these two have been given a chance at happiness.
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As far as the whole officer sleeping with a subordinate's wife, the rules forbidding it exist so that there is not a King David, Bathsheba situation where the superior officer can arrange to have the inconvenient husband sent to the front.
Although it is 'discouraged', It is rare for anything to come of it and the punishment was never going to be a courts martial for a honourary rank, nor a resignation of his commission.
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APB's Army unit was in charge of substituting for the striking workers, so the strike kept him conveniently occupied far away.
It is rare for the commanding officer to be 'in the field' and any base is within easy driving distance of London and Glos.
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I also cannot conceive of any situation where I would allow any friend of mine to use our house as an assignation venue to commit adultery (which was what the bulk of the camillagate call was about). So, there you have it. I hope that this expains a bit to you why these 2 are not on my favorites list.
Then you are very lucky never having seen the misery of any friends suffering in an unhappy marriage.
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  #842  
Old 01-05-2009, 07:05 AM
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I would hope that if any of us could imagine the upset/angst/distress endured by Charles & Camilla, we might be able to feel a little pity for them and a gladness that at last these two have been given a chance at happiness.Although it is 'discouraged', It is rare for anything to come of it and the punishment was never going to be a courts martial for a honourary rank, nor a resignation of his commission.It is rare for the commanding officer to be 'in the field' and any base is within easy driving distance of London and Glos. Then you are very lucky never having seen the misery of any friends suffering in an unhappy marriage.
To feel the pity for them one has first to be able to see beyond the rank. privilege and position to the people actually living this life with all its restrictions and, yes, hardships. I see a lot of postershere on the se forums who only see the gold and glitter of the gilded cage and not the cage itself.

Camilla exchanged the comfortable life of a private lady of the upperclasses with the means to support her comfortable lifestyle to that of a high-profile figure with public duties, she changed from being a divorcee with grown-up-kids (traditional a quite matriarchial position in the small family) to become the fourth in ranked-lady internally in a family headed by a matriarch/patriarch-team which are her parents-in-law where her own children are not welcome at "family gatherings" but she has to attend. This I personally don't see as any kind of reward. Her reward is the fact that she can now spend more hours every day with the man she loves instead of being a much missed, but due to duty/protocoll not often available love/friend/soulmate/confidante. For a lady of her age to have made this choice is a sign of deep affection indeed. opportunits IMHO would have preferred to reap the pros of the situation but stay as far away of the responsibilities as possible. And where's the proof that she was financially broke?

APB and his wife Camilla surely had some sort of understanding how their marriage worked. It is known that APB was not a faithful husband either. But even in the most open and free-spirited marriage, surely there must be some sort of organization to avoid unpleasant situations for all concerned. Asians call that to "save face" - I understood the way Charles and Camilla negociated/organized their relationship as a way to offer APB what was his due as Camilla's husband - a home with a wife and kids when he had the time to enjoy it, for the sake of all family members involved, even though this marriage worked on different levels when it came to faithfulness or the times Camilla and APB spent apart. I understood the tape as showing that while Camilla and APB had a family life when he was at home, she was free to do what she wanted when he wasn't. If those times coincidenced with Charles' free moments, Camilla shared her free time with Charles. And both longed for this time, deeply, romantically, needed it for their souls, but both Charles and Camilla understood that this should not have any influence on the way APB should live his family life as it had been agreed on on the PB's wedding day. That's how I read this "infamous" part of the tape, which, as I said, should have been stayed in the private part of their lives, but when one wants to discuss it, I personally read it as rather convincing proof of Camilla's positive and caring personality.

As for their friends helping them: those who have been real friends did see that they in fact were suffering due to the situation they were in, which they couldn't change. Instead of treating them with advice that could not lead anywhere besides more suffering or moral disdain (which wouldn't have helped them either) they tried to be hands-on, pragmatic friends, offering a venue for relief, so rare for both of them and so much needed according to their talk on the tape. That's what friends are for, real friends, IMHO and I'm glad that people in their position are able to have such friends.
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  #843  
Old 01-05-2009, 07:51 AM
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Excellently written and argued Jo.

A phrase that comes to mind is:

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Many people who pontificate against Charles and Camilla will have their own 'sins' that they wouldn't like the world to know but are quick to condemn another couple to unhappiness and misery due to a couple of bad decisions made in their youth.
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  #844  
Old 01-05-2009, 08:31 AM
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Charles' mother (not so much father), Grand Parents, and Great Grandparents all were admirable examples for the country...pretty much all . Even Uncle David I admire on a certain level because he was willing to do what was best for the country (by way of the PM), even if he wanted to marry the unsuitable wife, as opposed to the whole have his cake and eat it too that Charles has accomplished.
From what I've read about David, he was ambivalent about taking the throne. He may have loved Wallis but abdicating the throne meant that he just dropped the troubles onto his younger brother who was ill prepared for it. That's not taking responsibility in my book; that's saying if I can't have it my way, I'm leaving and you'll have to clean up the mess.
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  #845  
Old 01-05-2009, 01:56 PM
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Jo - I'll find the information regarding Camilla's financial woes and forward that to you via a private message. I do remember that she took an incredible bath on the Lloyds of London debacle regarding the insurance syndication (late 1980's into the 1990's.) I also will forward the reports of her dodging her creditors (even a fishmonger for heaven's sake!) and laughing about it with a friend (laughing instead of crying, one supposes.)

However, I had not realized that this thread was actually only for those who would post that they always loved C&C, or that they once despised the two and now adore them. I thought the thread was whether or not one's personal opinion of the pair of them had changed since their wedding.

I did note that Al Bina received some smacks upthread for referring to Camilla as "plain," instead of agreeing with another poster that she was "gorgeous;" I believe one posting party decided to view it as an insult to all Englishwomen that Camilla was so described, which was utterly fascinating to observe. So, perhaps I should have been forewarned that anything other than utter devotion would be met with stormy responses and interesting (and wholly unfounded) accusations of hidden dirty deeds or motivations.

I try not to read too much into the "deep devotion" of the Camilla-bonded here, but often am engrossed by the significant level of personal identification with her, by some.
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  #846  
Old 01-05-2009, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
Jo - I'll find the information regarding Camilla's financial woes and forward that to you via a private message. I do remember that she took an incredible bath on the Lloyds of London debacle regarding the insurance syndication (late 1980's into the 1990's.) I also will forward the reports of her dodging her creditors (even a fishmonger for heaven's sake!) and laughing about it with a friend (laughing instead of crying, one supposes.)
I know these stories but so far haven't read them in a somewhat reliable source. I have in addition yet to read about a real friend of Camilla known by name to talk to the media or a biographer. And IMHo financial details are things only your closest friends might know about apart from those concerned with your finances professionally and those are normally sworn to secrecy, as is right.

To be honest, I have nothing against getting some more reliable information about Camilla's background, but I'm afraid that I have yet to see proof that she was a name of Lloyds at all - it was claimed but I haven't seen any proof of it yet - even a listing in an article in the Financial Times would do for me but so far nothing is forthcoming.

I know that both Camilla and APB are heirs of families of means, so surely have trust fonds that can't be touched normally. But I persoanlly doubt they were financially in a liga with those signing up for Lloyds.

As for dodging her creditors: no one in his right mind would order fish for delivery and then not answering the door when one has guests! That is such a stupid scenario. Really, think about it, it is.
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'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #847  
Old 01-05-2009, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
I As for dodging her creditors: no one in his right mind would order fish for delivery and then not answering the door when one has guests! That is such a stupid scenario. Really, think about it, it is.

Very well, Jo, I shan't trouble you with items whose provenance you feel you may eschew. However, as to the quote above - the fish was not being delivered - just the bill, for prior deliveries! (Not sure how that works where you are, though.)
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  #848  
Old 01-05-2009, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
Very well, Jo, I shan't trouble you with items whose provenance you feel you may eschew. However, as to the quote above - the fish was not being delivered - just the bill, for prior deliveries! (Not sure how that works where you are, though.)
Well, here it is recorded in public lists if a supplier sues you for payment for done deliveries and the court agrees that the deed was indeed due. So here in Germany you could find proof quite easily if it existed.
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'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #849  
Old 01-05-2009, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Well, here it is recorded in public lists if a supplier sues you for payment for done deliveries and the court agrees that the deed was indeed due. So here in Germany you could find proof quite easily if it existed.
The same here Jo, it would be well documented if anyone had sued for non payment.
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  #850  
Old 01-05-2009, 04:42 PM
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Oh...Jo...you don't really want to open that line of conversation, do you?


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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
May you be so kind as to share your reasons with us? Why do you like Diana? And what repels you in Camilla?
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  #851  
Old 01-05-2009, 05:04 PM
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Oh...Jo...you don't really want to open that line of conversation, do you?
Why not? I personally find the workings of the media and their influence on the view people have on the world really, really interesting. And this here is a well moderated forum, so I'm always looking forward to these statements and the discussions that follow. I don't know about the members who read only but I have the impression that quite some actually started to really think about htis topic of their interest and some actually changed their opinion due to the well sourced information supplied here - thus allowing for a forum victory over the manipulating hyaenas of the media!
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'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #852  
Old 01-05-2009, 05:10 PM
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Mine was mostly a rhetorical question. It always seems to me that the Diana/Camilla discussions go in circles and end up making work for the moderators. But I guess that's what they're there for. "Manipulating hyaenas of the media." I like that metaphor.

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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Why not? I personally find the workings of the media and their influence on the view people have on the world really, really interesting. And this here is a well moderated forum, so I'm always looking forward to these statements and the discussions that follow. I don't know about the members who read only but I have the impression that quite some actually started to really think about htis topic of their interest and some actually changed their opinion due to the well sourced information supplied here - thus allowing for a forum victory over the manipulating hyaenas of the media!
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  #853  
Old 01-06-2009, 01:43 AM
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That is true, Sirhon. You cannot escape your past. But, unlike many people, I think that Charles and Camilla are a great love story about fate and eventually ending up with who is best for you. They may not have always gone about it in the best way, or most discreet manner, but you can certainly tell there is no tension or drama between them. They may well be what some can call a "model marriage".

Actually Charles and Camilla were extremely discreet in their relationship until a certain person decided to tell all in a book (and deny any part in the book at all at first).

Had Diana not told the world about her unhappiness then, in all likelihood we still wouldn't know about Charles and Camilla as they did try to be discreet and thanks to their friends were able to do so. Once they were outed by Diana they did start to acknowledge each other but it was still a long time before they were seen together (remember the big press contingent there taking flash photographs that evening).
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  #854  
Old 01-06-2009, 06:11 AM
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You cannot escape your past. But, unlike many people, I think that Charles and Camilla are a great love story about fate and eventually ending up with who is best for you. They may not have always gone about it in the best way, or most discreet manner, but you can certainly tell there is no tension or drama between them. They may well be what some can call a "model marriage".
You can never completely escape your past, but I believe you can outgrow it. Charles and Camilla were ever discreet until the Charles/Dimbleby interview. I'm sure, as with any married couple, they probably have their minor disagreements but the deep love they have for one another and because at times it must have felt like 'us against the world', they get through it and come out the other side even stronger.
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  #855  
Old 01-06-2009, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Why not? I personally find the workings of the media and their influence on the view people have on the world really, really interesting. And this here is a well moderated forum, so I'm always looking forward to these statements and the discussions that follow. I don't know about the members who read only but I have the impression that quite some actually started to really think about htis topic of their interest and some actually changed their opinion due to the well sourced information supplied here - thus allowing for a forum victory over the manipulating hyaenas of the media!
Hmmm . . . . . . "manipulating hyaenas of the media". Don't those words just roll off the tongue like liquid honey? So elevating. Beats my "scum sucking bottom dwellers" in both style and context.

But back to business. I think you have made a really valid point about the influence of media. We read it each day on the forum, different threads but we can often source the posts via this week's media. Those whose views are "straight off the presses" so to speak.

If the gutter press have their way everyone will be the poorer for it.

On Queen Elizabeth's death they will take issue with who is invited to the funeral (not them of course), the precedence of the guests followed immediately by outrage at the cost.

On Charles ascension to the throne they will recycle the post Panorama "is he fit to be King having married Camilla and all that', followed by the obligatory 1,000 man poll. Against of course.

This is followed by "William should be King", take a poll, media rehashes Helicopter debacle, seeming lack of ability to make decisions as regards his girlfriend/potential Queen.

Next we have a brief flirtation with "Harry for King" but that is soon shelved when remembering that he doesn't seem to give a damn about what they think. So . . .

Hopefully the people, realising that they have been manipulated by the media, will make their own feelings about the monarchy known and Charles and his Camilla, who are doing really well and challenging a lot of people's preconceptions, will be crowned and etc. etc.
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  #856  
Old 01-06-2009, 07:59 AM
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Hopefully the people, realising that they have been manipulated by the media, will make their own feelings about the monarchy known and Charles and his Camilla, who are doing really well and challenging a lot of people's preconceptions, will be crowned and etc. etc.
Considering how many only read the headline and not the story, very many will not realise they have been manipulated at all .....
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  #857  
Old 01-06-2009, 12:35 PM
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... APB and his wife Camilla surely had some sort of understanding how their marriage worked. It is known that APB was not a faithful husband either. But even in the most open and free-spirited marriage, surely there must be some sort of organization to avoid unpleasant situations for all concerned. Asians call that to "save face" - I understood the way Charles and Camilla negociated/organized their relationship as a way to offer APB what was his due as Camilla's husband - a home with a wife and kids when he had the time to enjoy it, for the sake of all family members involved, even though this marriage worked on different levels when it came to faithfulness or the times Camilla and APB spent apart. I understood the tape as showing that while Camilla and APB had a family life when he was at home, she was free to do what she wanted when he wasn't. If those times coincidenced with Charles' free moments, Camilla shared her free time with Charles. And both longed for this time, deeply, romantically, needed it for their souls, but both Charles and Camilla understood that this should not have any influence on the way APB should live his family life as it had been agreed on on the PB's wedding day. That's how I read this "infamous" part of the tape, which, as I said, should have been stayed in the private part of their lives, but when one wants to discuss it, I personally read it as rather convincing proof of Camilla's positive and caring personality. ...[snipped and my bolding]
I am quite surprised to read this part of your post. I would not define this whole thing as an Asian face-saving, but rather a European-style marriage of convenience, where spouses lead lives of their own, including extra marital affairs. Under no circumstances, Asian women are allowed to carry any adulterous relationships. Additionally I do not think that Asian men would allow their wives to tar the reputation of their families and, thus, sulk a reputation of daughters, if they have ones. Therefore, it would be better not to use this expression loosely.
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  #858  
Old 01-06-2009, 01:46 PM
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I am quite surprised to read this part of your post. I would not define this whole thing as an Asian face-saving, but rather a European-style marriage of convenience, where spouses lead lives of their own, including extra marital affairs. Under no circumstances, Asian women are allowed to carry any adulterous relationships. Additionally I do not think that Asian men would allow their wives to tar the reputation of their families and, thus, sulk a reputation of daughters, if they have ones. Therefore, it would be better not to use this expression loosely.
I personally never bought into sentences like "(All, that is in this case: none at all) Asian men would allow their wives to tar the reputation of their families" or "Under no circumstances, Asian women are allowed..." - I have quite met some women of Asian background who do exactly what they want and this includes the way to live their marriage life. Not only Thai women, but from ladies form othe rparts of Asia as well. But all of them are concerned about appearances and prefer to keep their face.
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  #859  
Old 01-06-2009, 01:59 PM
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Throwing around "Asians call that to "save face" is awkward in my personal opinion. You might be right about Thai and other Asian women you have met. However I doubt that it means that Asian culture condones a face saving by allowing unhappy wives to search for a happiness on a side. I think it is wrong to drag an Asian face-saving into justifying wrong behaviour on the part of Prince Wales and then Mrs. Parker Bowles. It was just an usual arrangement between two spouses, who would like to enjoy their lives and preserve some face. It has nothing to do with the Asian face saving. Anyway, let us disagree on this one as usually.
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  #860  
Old 01-06-2009, 02:21 PM
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I start a new post her because it is a new idea for me which I want to share with those of you who are interested in this topic:

During the days of christmas I had the opportunity to meet an old friend and to have a real conversation with her, about the things that really bother her and me beyond our comfortable life. She told me that she is listed for a total hysterectomy, that she is afraid of a cancer diagnosis, of how she will change, of how this might affect her marriage. She said that she knew for more than a year now that something is wrong, that it had started with infrequent bleedings, how the doctors had treated her but that in the end there was no other way than the Op.

I had never realised how much angst a woman can feel when it comes to something that is "quite simple" in medical terms. And quite many of her fears could have had a real reason: she could not have intercourse with her husband like they were used to, very often she was not up to it or had bleedings. So she became afraid to loose him to another, more comfortable woman, younger than she is, more attractive. Or that he would be inconvenienced by her. That she would die or change, that all would change. Okay, so far her husband is with her, supports her, they cuddle at night, he holds her and we'll see what's going to come out of the situation.

But it made me realise that we don't know how Camilla felt when she was diagnosed with her gynacological problems, how Charles felt, if there had been fears of cancer eventually - all that we don't know and probably will never know and why should we? all we know is that at one point Charles decided that he wanted to have Camilla close by, not only when they could meet in private, when he was at home in Clarence House, but most of the time, even on official trips. That they could share a bedroom or at least a bed (like his parents do) most nights without having to wait for media comments. That he could smile at her, laugh with her, be with her whenever they are together and that they could make the most of the time they have in future once they are married. But that a day will come when one of them will be left alone, except for an accident or a terrosrist attack. I never realised just how much you need to be with your love when you finally realise that there has to be an end, no matter what you do, no matter how privileged you are.

Charles stayed with Camilla even though due to her illness she probably wasn't acting as his "mistress" all the time. I bet any woman wishes secretly for a husband like that!
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