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  #441  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:09 PM
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Since when you need to be a good person to gather loyal friends ? Many examples in History would prove the contrary.
I disagree, if you are not well thought of by your friends, they have no loyalty towards you.

What is your explanation for her friends silence, for all these years? There has to be something about her that attracts such loyalty and I believe it to be her loyalty and general treatment of the people lucky enough to be counted by her as friends. That to me is the mark of a good woman.
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  #442  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:20 PM
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I disagree, if you are not well thought of by your friends, they have no loyalty towards you.

What is your explanation for her friends silence, for all these years? There has to be something about her that attracts such loyalty and I believe it to be her loyalty and general treatment of the people lucky enough to be counted by her as friends. That to me is the mark of a good woman.
What I actually meant is that you don't need to be a good woman/man to have loyal friends. Here's a random example (no comparison AT ALL with Camilla but I don't know how I could explain it otherwise). Hitler had very loyal friends and many never betrayed him ; does this make him a good man ?
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  #443  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TheTruth View Post
What I actually meant is that you don't need to be a good woman/man to have loyal friends. Here's a random example (no comparison AT ALL with Camilla but I don't know how I could explain it otherwise). Hitler had very loyal friends and many never betrayed him ; does this make him a good man ?
Kelly, please - no Hitler comparisons - this normally ends any discussion. And there were (thank the Lord!) lots who talked - they were not listened to, that was the sad thing!"
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  #444  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:27 PM
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I, too, was going to use the Hitler analogy, thank you. He still has loyal followers. As for protection, John Kennedy, said it best. It they want to kill you there is always a way. And, sadly, they did. Camilla is probably one of the least likely targets, but heck, it is not up to us. And, as Al Bina has stated, we're not paying for it. And, yes, there can always be some nut out there at any time, you can never prevent that.
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  #445  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:29 PM
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Kelly, please - no Hitler comparisons - this normally ends any discussion. And there were (thank the Lord!) lots who talked - they were not listened to, that was the sad thing!"
Yep, you're right, sorry about that. But to me, no matter how loyal are your friends, it doesn't represent the person you are.
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  #446  
Old 03-11-2008, 07:58 PM
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But to me, no matter how loyal are your friends, it doesn't represent the person you are.
I dunno. I look at the Paris Hilton's and the Nicole Richies who run around talking about how loyal they are then turn around and stab each other in the back.
I think it's a tribute to The Duchess that she has a tight group of people zipping it, so to speak. Too many "Loyal" people were only too willing to give up Diana and Fergie. . . .
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  #447  
Old 03-11-2008, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TheTruth View Post
What I actually meant is that you don't need to be a good woman/man to have loyal friends. Here's a random example (no comparison AT ALL with Camilla but I don't know how I could explain it otherwise). Hitler had very loyal friends and many never betrayed him ; does this make him a good man ?
I think that was more a case of loyalty through fear of Hitler and then loyalty for fear of what the allies would do. Many of his so called friends supported him because they too were evil. Many of his acquaintances spoke out, some to defend, some to condemn. So I think your comparison, however vague, falls at the first hurdle.

The only friend who has spoken, was Jilly and that was with tacit approval and an agreement that she would be very careful in what she said, I understand.

I was originally going to put 'a good egg', but reasoned that the other poster was having enough trouble understanding my posts, without confusing her further, however I still think Camilla to be a good person, good mother and someone who always puts her husband and children first - both husbands!
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  #448  
Old 03-11-2008, 08:10 PM
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Yep, you're right, sorry about that. But to me, no matter how loyal are your friends, it doesn't represent the person you are.
I on the other hand believe it does. Respect and loyalty are earned not just given.
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  #449  
Old 03-11-2008, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post

Call me nasty, if you like but I guess your former subordinates would prefer Camilla as a boss. Because she learned the hard way how to deal with human weaknesses.
Quite the contrary, my sub's respected hard workers and honorable behavior, it is/was our corporate culture, in fact I guess our country tends to lean toward this benchmark too. Queens Elizabeth, Beatrix, Sofia etc. seem to fit this description and they are all older.

As for calling you nasty, no..the comment amuses me.
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  #450  
Old 03-12-2008, 05:29 AM
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Quite the contrary, my sub's respected hard workers and honorable behavior, it is/was our corporate culture,
Really, from what we see of many businesses, honour does not come into it.

Even the various religions have problems with the concept of honour. It all depends on a personal view, after all, many women are killed each year in 'honour killings' and the people involved believe they acted to protect their code of honour. So as we can see, what is one persons idea of honour is not everyones idea of honour.
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  #451  
Old 03-12-2008, 06:43 AM
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Quite the contrary, my sub's respected hard workers and honorable behavior, it is/was our corporate culture,
Hm, IMHO an important part of honorable behaviour is the decency to check facts before passing judgment.

In this case we have so far no official statement confirming that Camilla dropped out of any of her scheduled events due to whatever reason. All we have are two papers claiming that she hasn't as many scheduled events as her husband, one even explaining that fact with the information that she needs more time for preparation than her husband.

Taking this information to pass judgment of Camilla's work ethic and to condem her seems indecent to me. Maybe you sub's respected your hard work, but I doubt they would have respected to be judged by you without your trying to seriously checking the circumstances before that judgment.
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  #452  
Old 03-12-2008, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Really, from what we see of many businesses, honour does not come into it.

Even the various religions have problems with the concept of honour. It all depends on a personal view, after all, many women are killed each year in 'honour killings' and the people involved believe they acted to protect their code of honour. So as we can see, what is one persons idea of honour is not everyones idea of honour.
I happened to have a wonderful experience during my career so I speak from my experience. If you are seeing the opposite in your experience.. how sad. As for honor, calling out religions that don't hold a woman to an equal standard is an odd extreme in trying to make your point, but I agree the DoC would have not been around today if she was in one these cultures.

My circle of friends, which at least one was born and raised in England, do not find DoC to be an exemplary model of hardworking nor sweet. She makes the US Wallis Simpson look like an amateur. This is my opinion, I understand that some of you don't agree and that is your right...I won't belittle you because I don't agree.

Quote:
Taking this information to pass judgment of Camilla's work ethic and to condem her seems indecent to me. Maybe you sub's respected your hard work, but I doubt they would have respected to be judged by you without your trying to seriously checking the circumstances before that judgment.
Why are you making this personal, I don't agree with you about DoC. We don't agree about her character...the word condemn is so dramatic. As for my subs you are projecting....I had and still have consulting work based on my skills...I would love to put a plan together for the DoC:)
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  #453  
Old 03-12-2008, 01:34 PM
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I happened to have a wonderful experience during my career so I speak from my experience. If you are seeing the opposite in your experience.. how sad. As for honor, calling out religions that don't hold a woman to an equal standard is an odd extreme in trying to make your point, but I agree the DoC would have not been around today if she was in one these cultures.
I am not part of the daily grind, so please, save your sarcasm. I would think the entire Western world has read about the lack of honour in any number of businesses, I was merely pointing out that your idea of honour might be different from others. I don't find it very honourable to judge someone on mis reading a couple of articles. Recently a Bishop has been forced to resign because he fell in love with another woman, some of his parishoners, acting in a to them, honourable way, forced this resignation. They believe they did an honourable thing even though I find it was neither an honourable nor christian thing. I don't understand your 'calling out' remark, so I won't judge you on that.

I did not mention religions regarding honour killings, I said many religions have a problem with honour and many women are killed each year because they were believed to dishonour their family. Two completely different examples of 'honour'.
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My circle of friends, which at least one was born and raised in England, do not find DoC to be an exemplary model of hardworking nor sweet. She makes the US Wallis Simpson look like an amateur
Based on what, the same misread article? Does your one English friend know HRH personally to make this judgment, have you and she based your comparison on misread articles concerning Simpson as well as HRH or are you saying you are able to compare one with the other from personal knowledge?
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I would love to put a plan together for the DoC:)
Lucky for us, she has professionals to advise her.
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  #454  
Old 03-12-2008, 04:24 PM
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far from the press not being interested in Camilla's side of the story, they would have paid many millions for it, goodness they have, I understand, offered thousands to any friend who will speak, without any success to date. That is the mark of a good woman who can gather such loyal friends.
You have a really good point there. Not only has she gathered loyal friends, but am I right in thinking that neither "the Butler" nor anyone else employed by her, has felt the need to feather their nest?
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  #455  
Old 03-12-2008, 04:39 PM
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My circle of friends, which at least one was born and raised in England, do not find DoC to be an exemplary model of hardworking nor sweet. She makes the US Wallis Simpson look like an amateur.
Good Lord I should hope not! Wallis loved David but she was never lN LOVE with David, not like Camilla is with Charles.
I have a couple English clients here in Oregon as well and they have said what a conniving person Camilla is. I just don't see it. All I see is a prejudice that just because Camilla wasn't Hollywood beautiful like Diana, people don't like her. Since they label her a "rottweiler" they think her motives suspect and evil.
I like her character. I think she's a strong woman worthy of respect.
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  #456  
Old 03-12-2008, 04:49 PM
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Good Lord I should hope not! Wallis loved David but she was never lN LOVE with David, not like Camilla is with Charles.
I have only read one biography of Wallis Simpson and that not completely, but I don't know how you could know whether she "loved" David but wasn't "in love" with him?
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  #457  
Old 03-12-2008, 05:15 PM
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I actually picked up a book at a second hand shop that Wallace wrote , can't remember if I even have it any more. It was called "The Heart Has It's Reasons". Might dig it out if I can find it and re-read it.......but I digress this thread is about Charles and Camilla

I'm sure Camilla will never write/conspire to write a book/arrange an interview, she has kept silent all these years as have her friends . I respect her for that
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  #458  
Old 03-12-2008, 07:19 PM
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I have only read one biography of Wallis Simpson and that not completely, but I don't know how you could know whether she "loved" David but wasn't "in love" with him?
Indeed this is about Charles and Camilla, I was responding to the post above where they were comparing Charles and Camilla's relationship to that of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.
I am currently at work, so this is what I've come up with just on the top of my head.

From Greg King's Book: The Duchess of Windsor.
"More than anything else, she appears a woman who. in her own way, loved David greatly."
Emphasis Mine.
Didn't say she was in love with David, just loved him in her own way.

From Dancing With The Devil by Christopher Wilson:
"In the eyes of these adhearents, Jimmy put Wallis in a position to fatally compromise the man who had given up his throne, his crown and his empire for the woman he loved. For four years and three months, the Duke of Windsor was cuckolded by, and remained in danger of being rejected for, a homosexual."
Again, Emphasis Mine.
Everybody knows about the affair Wallis had with Jimmy Donohue. In my opinion, if you are IN LOVE, really IN LOVE with somebody, you don't go screwing around on them.

From Owen Platt: The Royal Governor
"Always strong-willed, Wallis now dominated Edward completely; on one occasion, in front of guests, she thumped the table and forebade him to give instructions to the servants "in my home."
Ditto the above.
Point being, marriage is a two-way street. It's built upon people who work together, no one has the upper hand in the relationship. I don't see that with Camilla and Charles. I noticed that to some degree with Wallis and David.
I see Charles and Camilla's relationship to be very healthy, give and take. I saw Wallis and David's as rather sad. She did love him, he did take care of her, but it wasn't the "Romance of the Century" that many have proclaimed it. David simply didn't want to be King and in giving up the throne, how could Wallis dump him?

Charles and Camilla have a very lovely, working, healthy relationship. They always have had this and they always will.
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  #459  
Old 03-13-2008, 05:58 AM
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I have a couple English clients here in Oregon as well and they have said what a conniving person Camilla is. I just don't see it. All I see is a prejudice that just because Camilla wasn't Hollywood beautiful like Diana, people don't like her. Since they label her a "rottweiler" they think her motives suspect and evil.
I like her character. I think she's a strong woman worthy of respect.
Many people have judged Camilla on the things Diana said, but as they say -

You can fool some of the people, some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

There will always be gullible people who choose to believe Camilla is the devil, because they are unwilling or unable to see beyond what ONE person told the world, in her efforts to shift the blame over the breakup. The same pattern that Diana used at school, (poison pen letters prime example). Having spoken to many people over this past year, from all walks of life, the anti Camilla brigade seem to be either raving church goers or people whose partner/spouse/father, has had affairs or divorced them. I say father because those where the mother had affairs all have excuses for what she did.

Not scientific I know!
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  #460  
Old 03-13-2008, 08:07 AM
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Having spoken to many people over this past year, from all walks of life, the anti Camilla brigade seem to be either raving church goers or people whose partner/spouse/father, has had affairs or divorced them. I say father because those where the mother had affairs all have excuses for what she did.

Not scientific I know!
Not scientific, okay, but an interesting observation.
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