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  #321  
Old 03-09-2008, 11:44 AM
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I can understand that maybe for Diana supporters it´s important to reflect again and again the past and the time of her marriage with Charles.

For me this topic is more and more boring because it doesn´t bring any news or any new reliable source.
No, its me that brought this latest topic up because of some comments I got about Charles from people that hardly follow royalty and I am not a Diana follower.

When friends and colleagues first hear I am interested into royalty, they ask me quite cautiously whether I am one of 'those' people that follow Diana and they seem quite relieved to find out that I am not but I'm always amazed that for non-royal followers, following royalty and following Diana seem to mean the same thing. However they also say that of course, Charles was carrying on with Camilla when he was marrying Diana and if they don't know anything else about Charles, they know that even though they don't care much for either Diana or Charles and they certainly don't know where the statement came from. This belief seems to have entered the public's consciousness without the public ever realizing whether it came from or whether it is really true. If people do know anything else about Charles it is the sure fact as another one of my colleagues told me that the British were going to take the crown away from Charles and give it William. The person I spoke to thought it ridiculous that people were thinking of taking the crown away from Charles and he seemed very sympathetic to Charles becoming King but he thought it was a done deal that Charles would not acceed the throne.

So for most of the people that don't care about this stuff, there are no camps between Diana followers and Camilla followers. However, some of the ideas that Diana wanted planted in people's heads have made themselves into the general public's consciousness without them realizing where it came from much to the detriment of Charles. .
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  #322  
Old 03-09-2008, 11:47 AM
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Sorry Kelly, but what you wrote are only speculations without any facts.

All these threads end in an enduring Diana-Charles-Camilla discussion.
And because we all don´t know the truth () we try to built our own pictures.
It´s okay, but than we shouldn´t forget that we most of the time talk about (our) fiction and not about reality.

I can understand that maybe for Diana supporters it´s important to reflect again and again the past and the time of her marriage with Charles.

For me this topic is more and more boring because it doesn´t bring any news or any new reliable source.

What i see ( i hope in reality) is a Prince of Wales happily married with a woman who gives him the suport he needs to do such a great job!
Yes, of course and it's good to see them happy together at last. My post was only reflecting my point of view, not the truth ; like you said, we all have our own vision.

To get back on-topic, my opinion did change about Camilla. When she married Charles, I thought she would have a hard time integrating the RF. Not that she didn't have the guts to face the whole world, but that she would be tired of the protocol stuff like changing 3 times of dress at Balmoral, the state visits, etc. I was very surprised to see that a woman who enjoys so much the country side and nature has managed to live with it and behave like a real HRH. My respects
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  #323  
Old 03-09-2008, 12:33 PM
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Not that she didn't have the guts to face the whole world, but that she would be tired of the protocol stuff like changing 3 times of dress at Balmoral, the state visits, etc. I was very surprised to see that a woman who enjoys so much the country side and nature has managed to live with it and behave like a real HRH. My respects
Interesting that you say that. But you're right. She has managed to give a good image to the public. But maybe that's because she is now as harassed and photographed as ever, but this time her pictures are not used to the advantage of the media alone but for her "darling husband" and her new family as well. So she does what she necessarily got used to but has now the agreable and positive reward of doing Charles and his family a favour not a misdeed.

I'Ve to say that what Ysbel describes bothers me as well. Because it is repeated over and over again. And finally it reaches each and anybody, even those not interested at all. Yesterday I went to a beauty parlour and my husband was so kind to drive me there and wait for me in the lounge. Being there he flipped through the yellow mags and reported exasperated that he couldn't understand why Charles married the same kind of wacko twice? And I said "What"? Then he told me that he had read that Camilla because of a fight with Charles had tried to commit suicide and that her bodyguard had found and saved her. And he commented (and that was when I first realised he had actually listened to my Royal Rants!): "but that was Diana all over, wasn't it? You told me she had claimed to have done done this and it was all in that book you lately read but that she didn't achieve anything from these tantrums and so why would Camilly behave that way, her being much older and much more street-wise, or so I had claimed!" followed by some mumblings that obvioulsy Charles "was not able (other than him, eg.!) to find a wife who was just a good wife and that was that!" I laughed so hard that probably my new laughing wrinkles managed to kill all effect the treatment had had before I proudly had sailed out of the parlour, but then, okay, that's that.
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  #324  
Old 03-09-2008, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
No, its me that brought this latest topic up because of some comments I got about Charles from people that hardly follow royalty and I am not a Diana follower.

When friends and colleagues first hear I am interested into royalty, they ask me quite cautiously whether I am one of 'those' people that follow Diana and they seem quite relieved to find out that I am not but I'm always amazed that for non-royal followers, following royalty and following Diana seem to mean the same thing. However they also say that of course, Charles was carrying on with Camilla when he was marrying Diana and if they don't know anything else about Charles, they know that even though they don't care much for either Diana or Charles and they certainly don't know where the statement came from. This belief seems to have entered the public's consciousness without the public ever realizing whether it came from or whether it is really true. If people do know anything else about Charles it is the sure fact as another one of my colleagues told me that the British were going to take the crown away from Charles and give it William. The person I spoke to thought it ridiculous that people were thinking of taking the crown away from Charles and he seemed very sympathetic to Charles becoming King but he thought it was a done deal that Charles would not acceed the throne.

So for most of the people that don't care about this stuff, there are no camps between Diana followers and Camilla followers. However, some of the ideas that Diana wanted planted in people's heads have made themselves into the general public's consciousness without them realizing where it came from much to the detriment of Charles. .
I've noticed that too.
Here's a question. How long was it, after marrying Diana, before Charles started seeing Camilla again?
  #325  
Old 03-09-2008, 12:54 PM
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Oh Jo, how funny you must have looked going out of the parlor.

But you're right about the tabloids; I mean another question I got was why Camilla was so intent on breaking up William and Kate; I told them, no she wasn't intent on breaking up Will and Kate and didn't understand where people got that from.

The next day I went into the grocery store and saw a tabloid that said Camilla finally succeeds in getting William to dump Kate. If you don't care about the royals then the fact that they are the subject of so much tabloid fare does make you lose respect for them even if you don't believe everything that the tabloids say.
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  #326  
Old 03-09-2008, 12:59 PM
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Oh Jo, how funny you must have looked going out of the parlor.

But you're right about the tabloids; I mean another question I got was why Camilla was so intent on breaking up William and Kate; I told them, no she wasn't intent on breaking up Will and Kate and didn't understand where people got that from.

The next day I went into the grocery store and saw a tabloid that said Camilla finally succeeds in getting William to dump Kate. If you don't care about the royals then the fact that they are the subject of so much tabloid fare does make you lose respect for them even if you don't believe everything that the tabloids say.
Well the victim Diana is no longer here to sell the Anti-Camilla stories so they've found a way around it. I think tabloids are like :"Camilla destroyed Diana, now she tries to break William" and that sort of BS.
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  #327  
Old 03-09-2008, 01:13 PM
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Camilla gets called a romance wrecker and you call Diana the victim, TheTruth? I don't see where Diana was the victim here.

But the term victim you use is another idea that Diana worked to move in the public's consciousness that is so prevalent that people name Diana as the victim even in situations where Diana herself was not victimised.

Your easy and confident labelling of Diana as the victim in a situation where Camilla and not Diana is being victimised is quite troubling.

It is as if for the majority of the public Diana's middle name is Victim and being a victim is such a part of her character that her being a vicitm is brought up all the time regardless whether she was a victim or not.

In shorthand terms, the general public seems to regard her as a victim and they don't look beyond the word victim to the actual situation that was going on.

I think with the public hate campaign that Diana waged against Camilla, Diana was the perpetrator and Camilla was the victim. Diana may have been a victim elsewhere in her life but I fail to see where she was a victim here.

Yet the words Diana and victim invariably go in the same phrase whether people think through the facts or not. And they get brought up in situations where she victimised someone else.
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  #328  
Old 03-09-2008, 01:17 PM
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Camilla gets called a romance wrecker and you call Diana the victim, TheTruth? I don't see where Diana was the victim here.

But the term victim you use is another idea that Diana worked to move in the public's consciousness that is so prevalent that people name Diana as the victim even in situations where Diana herself was not victimised.

Your easy and confident labelling of Diana as the victim in a situation where Camilla and not Diana is being victimised is quite troubling.

It is as if for the majority of the public Diana's middle name is Victim and being a victim is such a part of her character that her being a vicitm is brought up all the time regardless whether she was a victim or not.

In shorthand terms, the general public seems to regard her as a victim and they don't look beyond the word victim to the actual situation that was going on.

I think with the public hate campaign that Diana waged against Camilla, Diana was the perpetrator and Camilla was the victim. Diana may have been a victim elsewhere in her life but I fail to see where she was a victim here.

Yet the words Diana and victim invariably go in the same phrase whether people think through the facts or not. And they get brought up in situations where she victimised someone else.
What I meant by calling Diana a victim, it was in the eyes of people and the tabloids, not in mine . I referred to what tabloids buyers thought. Camilla is the real victim here, no doubt of it.
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  #329  
Old 03-09-2008, 01:31 PM
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Oh Ok, TheTruth. So I see you and I are on the same wavelength.

Sorry I thought you were speaking for yourself.

But this brings us back to the idea in the people's consciousness about these figures.

I mean if when people say the word Diana and the first word that comes to mind is victim and then when people say Camilla and the first word that comes to people's mind is Rottweiler then you can see how devastatingly effective Diana's campaign was.

I wonder if there is a way for Camilla to reclaim the Rottweiler comment and other such damaging comments like 'three in this marriage"

I think it would be incredibly funny to see a picture of Charles and Camilla in bed with a real Rottweiler dog between them and have Camilla turn to Charles and say, "Honey, I don't think this is what your first wife meant by 'There Was Three in this Marriage' and Charles responding 'Oh of course, darling, you are absolutely right, there was more than 3. Hurry off Spot, you're getting hairs on the bed. Goodnight Millie' as he turns out the lights.

What are some other ways that Charles and Camilla can neutralize some of the damage that Diana caused to their public reputations (and no I don't mean abdicate from the throne )
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  #330  
Old 03-09-2008, 01:36 PM
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I think it was be incredibly funny to see a picture of Charles and Camilla in bed with a real Rottweiler dog between them and have Camilla turn to Charles and say, "Honey, I don't think this is what your first wife meant by 'There Was Three in this Marriage' and Charles responding 'Oh of course, darling, you are absolutely right, there was more than 3. Hurry off Spot, you're getting hairs on the bed. Goodnight Millie' as he turns out the lights.
LOL, thank you for this, ysbel!
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  #331  
Old 03-09-2008, 03:03 PM
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I don't see Charles, Diana or Camilla as victims; the true victims of the War of the Waleses is William and Harry and perhaps Camilla's children.

Camilla should have known that if the media found out that she was carrying on an affair with the future king it would be deveastating for her reputation.
Diana did cause some damage for Charles and Camilla's reputation but the rest was caused by themselves the camillagate recordings was quite damaging for them.
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  #332  
Old 03-09-2008, 03:06 PM
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I don't see Charles, Diana or Camilla as victims; the true victims of the War of the Waleses is William and Harry and perhaps Camilla's children.

Camilla should have known that if the media found out that she was carrying on an affair with the future king it would be deveastating for her reputation.
Diana did cause some damage for Charles and Camilla's reputation but the rest was caused by themselves the camillagate recordings was quite damaging for them.
Camilla should have known? Shouldn't Charles have known as well?
  #333  
Old 03-09-2008, 03:09 PM
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Camilla should have known? Shouldn't Charles have known as well?
Yes he should have also.
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  #334  
Old 03-09-2008, 03:12 PM
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I don't see Charles, Diana or Camilla as victims; the true victims of the War of the Waleses is William and Harry and perhaps Camilla's children.

Camilla should have known that if the media found out that she was carrying on an affair with the future king it would be deveastating for her reputation.
Diana did cause some damage for Charles and Camilla's reputation but the rest was caused by themselves the camillagate recordings was quite damaging for them.
Yes but they didn't sell the tapes to a tabloid, nor did Diana and Gilbey with the Squidgygate. All three were trapped by the press. And I don't know if Camilla was thinking about her reputation when she was comforting Charles who was facing a doomed marriage. That's what friends do in tough situations and Charles was lucky to have her support at that time, I believe.
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  #335  
Old 03-09-2008, 03:39 PM
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Diana did cause some damage for Charles and Camilla's reputation but the rest was caused by themselves the camillagate recordings was quite damaging for them.
Yes, and that conversation was released by who? Would your reputation remain intact if all your private telephone conversations were released, sirhon?

I also disagree with you that just the fact that Camilla had an affair with Charles it would ruin her reputation. If you haven't noticed, marital affairs go on all the time and they get exposed without ruining reputations.

In fact the press had outed Charles and Camilla's affair for several years before people started to care about it. Both Diana and Andrew Morton were very frustrated about the fact that no one seemed to care that Charles and Camilla were having an affair. (Perhaps the public was used to the idea of royals having affairs or maybe so many marriages had broken up because an affair, it no longer seemed shocking)

But the change in people's opinions about Charles can be tracked to one event and one event only - Andrew Morton's book which deliberately painted Charles and Camilla as the villains in the story in graphic terms. This book was written with the full cooperation of Diana.

Again as always, the source of negative opinions about Charles and about Camilla always started with Diana and it started with a deliberate campaign by Diana to ruin their reputations.

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I don't see Charles, Diana or Camilla as victims; the true victims of the War of the Waleses is William and Harry and perhaps Camilla's children.
And again what was the immediate source of their pain? Their mother's dumping her emotional turmoil on two young boys to immature to understand what was going on. From every account I have read of Charles, he endeavoured to keep his relationship with Camilla away from his son and he made a goal of not revealing his troubles with Diana to his son.

Diana thought differently and she used William as her father confessor to bear the burden of her pain when he was only eight or nine years old.

So yes William is definitely a victim of the War of the Waleses but no matter how bad the relationship between Charles and Diana got, William's suffering could have been much less if Diana had not chosen him as her Father Confessor to listen to all her pain and resentment against Charles.

Again the immediate source of someone's pain points clearly to Diana. She was the deliberate source of a lot of illwill against Charles and Camilla that was not there before she started her campaign and her sons suffered because she used them as ammunition. Few people even knew or cared about Charles' affair with Camilla until Diana made it her business to make them care.
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  #336  
Old 03-09-2008, 04:02 PM
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Well, we agree to disagree Ysbel.
But I do agree with you about Diana unloading her troubles on to William since he was a child and she was wrong to involve him into her quarrels with Charles.
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Old 03-09-2008, 04:49 PM
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It would be interesting to see how the tabloids handled Charles and Camilla when they first started to talk about them as an item and see how that opinion has changed over the years. I think Elspeth was doing a research of the history of one of the tabloids depictions of Charles and Camilla over the years and I remember she said how surprising it was that it changed.

But maybe I'm mistaken.
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  #338  
Old 03-09-2008, 06:15 PM
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... Again the immediate source of someone's pain points clearly to Diana. She was the deliberate source of a lot of illwill against Charles and Camilla that was not there before she started her campaign and her sons suffered because she used them as ammunition. Few people even knew or cared about Charles' affair with Camilla until Diana made it her business to make them care.
It is not surprising that Princess Diana started the campaign against Prince Charles and Mrs. Parker-Bowls. Most women with cheating husbands attempt to shift blame onto their rivals. Princess of Wales was not a happy exception in this respect. Unfortunately she failed to discover the more intricate or sophisticated ways of poisoning the lives of her husband and his mistress and preserving a happy face in public. I wish she did.
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  #339  
Old 03-09-2008, 08:37 PM
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It is not surprising that Princess Diana started the campaign against Prince Charles and Mrs. Parker-Bowls. Most women with cheating husbands attempt to shift blame onto their rivals. Princess of Wales was not a happy exception in this respect. Unfortunately she failed to discover the more intricate or sophisticated ways of poisoning the lives of her husband and his mistress and preserving a happy face in public. I wish she did.
This may indeed be the common, and understandable, reaction of women who have cheating husbands .............. when the woman herself is not cheating. But when she is also cheating (Hewitt, et al), and may in fact have been the first to do so (Manakee and possibly also Henry Pembroke*, even earlier), the word that springs to my mind is hypocrite.

(*See The Real Diana, Lady Colin Campbell, 2004 edition, Chapter 10.)
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Old 03-09-2008, 08:47 PM
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It is not surprising that Princess Diana started the campaign against Prince Charles and Mrs. Parker-Bowls. Most women with cheating husbands attempt to shift blame onto their rivals. Princess of Wales was not a happy exception in this respect. Unfortunately she failed to discover the more intricate or sophisticated ways of poisoning the lives of her husband and his mistress and preserving a happy face in public. I wish she did.
For people who cared and felt deeply about the Royal Family as human beings before Diana, Diana did create enough lasting damage to those people without being very sophisticated. She didn't need to be more poisonous than she already was.

However for those who cared more for Diana than for the rest of the Royal Family, and people who rejoice at a finely tuned and devastating turn of revenge, then no Diana was not subtle enough in her poison because she died in the process.

So there are no winners in Diana's campaign to bring down Charles and Camilla. They haven't shaken off her effect and Diana died herself in the process by consorting with company that necessarily had a dishonourable reputation because those are the only types of people that so willingly join in as partners for revenge.

However if Charles and Camilla are going to move on with the rest of the Royal Family, they must move out of this damaging realm of influence that Diana created.
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