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  #1041  
Old 10-11-2015, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
At the start of the marriage they were a popular couple. Your view of the the marriage Charles affair and Diana is so different I can't begin to say. I lived though that time I know how I and others felt.
I won't go any further into it as I get to angry and will say too much. But if you weren't around during that time you really won't understand. It just goes round and round on this forum same old rubbish. So all hammer away at me but I won't be reading it.
With that kind of reasoning no historian can write a valid biography, which we know is not true. Contemporaneous personal accounts in history are always prime sources, and valuable (I use such), but not always for illuminating the facts. More often they illuminate the tenor of the times. More often the biases and prejudices that underlie the controversies are revealed.

Also, that sort of brush-off doesn't work with me because I was around, albeit quite young (in the realm of William's and Harry's ages). Much of what I know actually came through my mother, who followed the BRF (I did not at that time but I was aware, and I have recently done a mound of reading over the summer). No hard feelings. I'm not interested in any tussles, either, because for me it is beyond feelings, it has to do with the reality of the sequence of events which we know a great deal more about now because of memoirs and all.

I think what is clear is there are people for whom the Diana story is very personal somehow. I think it is tragic in itself that the tragedy of Diana continues to rain down upon Camilla, who was only ever a friend to Diana, or tried to be. What happened later between Charles and Camilla is not relevant to Diana's misfortunes imo. Better to leave that drama in the past and move on. Happily, all of my British compadres seem to be of that opinion, too.

I think Camilla will be called Queen regardless. (Princess Consort sounds so Barbie-Doll'ish, rather ridiculous for such an older woman like Camilla. It would be disrespectful to the British Queen to be so called imo. More embarrassment for the institution, and doing so would just continually bring to mind the dysfunction of the Diana years). Just like Kate still gets called Kate despite wanting to be called Catherine, Camilla will be Queen Camilla in the tabloids, and beyond. Yep.
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  #1042  
Old 10-11-2015, 02:25 AM
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This thread is not about Diana. Please stay on topic.
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  #1043  
Old 10-11-2015, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Prince Charles made a vow to the British public when he got married that Camilla would be neither princess of Wales nor queen. [....]
Did I miss that vow "to the British public" (whatever that means) ?
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  #1044  
Old 10-11-2015, 07:58 AM
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Actually, at the time, I believe the statement was that Camilla would be known as The Duchess of Cornwall and not the Princess of Wales. Being married to Charles, Camilla has the right to use the feminine form of any of Charles' titles.

Legally, Camilla is The Princess of Wales as she's married to The Prince of Wales.

When they married in 2005, I don't think Camilla was overly confident about taking on a full public workload and really would have liked to just remain in the background supporting Charles. With this in mind, that's probably why it was stated that it is intended that Camilla will be known as Princess Consort. As we've seen over the past 10 years, Camilla has adjusted quite well to her public role and both Charles and Camilla are very happy in their private lives also.
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  #1045  
Old 10-11-2015, 08:34 AM
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Of course Camilla will be Queen but this was all handled in the worst possible way. I think it was part of Bolland's 'Operation Camilla Parker-Bowles' to make Camilla more acceptable as consort.

I have no issues with her becoming Queen as the marriage is legal but Charles should have just stated this from the beginning. Why he thought it was clever to give the public a 'Princess Consort option' is beyond me. Naturally by giving the public a 'choice' it went with princess consort.

To say Camilla is non-negotiable and then turn around and negotiate her titles and use semantics is unbecoming imo.
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  #1046  
Old 10-11-2015, 08:57 AM
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I think it would be in poor taste for Camilla to be known as the Queen. Just like she is not referred to as the PoW...regardless of the technicality that she is.

I think Charles has behaved badly enough that he's just lucky he's not living 70 years ago because he would of gone the way of his great uncle.

But it appears you are stuck with Charles as the next monarch and he'll probably do a good enough job at it. But I hope I live long enough to see William on the throne. I think he will outdo his father on all levels.



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  #1047  
Old 10-11-2015, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
I think it would be in poor taste for Camilla to be known as the Queen
Why ? Are second marriages somehow less in your mind than first marriages ? Do you find calling the second wives [of your acquaintance] 'Mrs' whatever the name is, a problem ? Do you consider that to be in 'poor taste' ?
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  #1048  
Old 10-11-2015, 09:18 AM
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Camilla and The Public

If not having affairs, is the litmus test for Kingship that a lot of Kings would never been King. Numerous mistresses and illegitimate children of Kings are littered through history. Charles's behavior is mild when you compare him to Edward VII. Even George VI, slept with married women prior to getting married, so he wasn't perfect either. The ideal of Victoria and Albert that the royal family is this sort of perfect idea family isn't something they can live up to.

In modern Britain, people get divorced, they have affairs, sex before marriage, etc. All things that we see in the Royal family.


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  #1049  
Old 10-11-2015, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
If not having affairs, is the litmus test for Kingship that a lot of Kings would never been King. Numerous mistresses and illegitimate children of Kings are littered through history. Charles's behavior is mild when you compare him to Edward VII. Even George VI, slept with married women prior to getting married, so he wasn't perfect either. The ideal of Victoria and Albert that the royal family is this sort of perfect idea family isn't something they can live up to.

In modern Britain, people get divorced, they have affairs, sex before marriage, etc. All things that we see in the Royal family.


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Indeed, to parafrase a favourite quote once uttered by an MP in the Dutch Parliament during a debate about the royal family: "My ladies and gentlemen, we are discussing the royal family, not the Holy Family!"

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  #1050  
Old 10-11-2015, 03:14 PM
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Imo at some point the unequality between a male consort of the monarch and female consort of the monarch will be removed and just like a male consort is "prince", the female consort will be "princess" (in the netherlands a similar discussion was started when Maxima became queen).
Maybe not for a couple of generations in the future, but on the other hand: why not start with King Charles and Princess Camilla, and make a step towards gender-equality...
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  #1051  
Old 10-11-2015, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Imo at some point the unequality between a male consort of the monarch and female consort of the monarch will be removed and just like a male consort is "prince", the female consort will be "princess" (in the netherlands a similar discussion was started when Maxima became queen).
Maybe not for a couple of generations in the future, but on the other hand: why not start with King Charles and Princess Camilla, and make a step towards gender-equality...

An alternative approach to gender equality would be to call the husband of a reigning queen the king consort, just like the wife of a reigning king is the queen consort.
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  #1052  
Old 10-11-2015, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
An alternative approach to gender equality would be to call the husband of a reigning queen the king consort, just like the wife of a reigning king is the queen consort.
Makes far more sense.
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  #1053  
Old 10-11-2015, 11:04 PM
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To me, the titles Princess Consort and King Consort would be going against the grain as far as British tradition goes.

With King Consort, it would be like getting used to redefining the face cards in a deck of playing cards. A King always is higher than a Queen. Its been that way for centuries. Even with the Consort part, it denotes that the King is every bit as much as a monarch as the Queen Regnant is.

To have a King and a Princess Consort goes against equality in my book. The wife of a King is a Queen. Princess is a lesser title with the styling of Her Royal Highness rather than Her Majesty, The Queen Consort. To put Camilla into this position would actually be making her less equal in the marriage. As wives take their titles and styles from their husband, as King, the only titles Camilla can use of her husband's would be Queen Consort. Charles would have to create her anything else.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens when the time comes.
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  #1054  
Old 10-13-2015, 09:11 PM
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I believe Prince Henri, consort of Queen Margrethe of Denmark, would dearly love that King Consort title!

A summing up by the Independent on a DM survey taken earlier this year.

Over half of UK public do not want Camilla Duchess of Cornwall to be queen | News | The Independent
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  #1055  
Old 10-13-2015, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Why ? Are second marriages somehow less in your mind than first marriages ? Do you find calling the second wives [of your acquaintance] 'Mrs' whatever the name is, a problem ? Do you consider that to be in 'poor taste' ?

If they were the future defender of the Faith and head of the Church of England and in the same circumstance of Charles and Camilla...yes.


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  #1056  
Old 10-13-2015, 10:14 PM
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If they were the future defender of the Faith and head of the Church of England and in the same circumstance of Charles and Camilla...yes.





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  #1057  
Old 10-13-2015, 10:52 PM
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*coughHenryVIIIcough*

*coughthechurchwasformedbecauseamanwantedadivorcecough*

*coughtherehavebeennofewerthantwoRomanCatholicswhoheldthispositioncough*

*coughandMANYmenwhohadmistressescough*

*coughincludingtheguywhosefirstdivorcebroughtthechurchintoexistencecough*

Yes I'm well aware of history...aren't they supposed to have improved over the past several hundred years? Unless you are saying Charles isn't so bad because he hasn't killed two of his wives so far?


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  #1058  
Old 10-13-2015, 11:02 PM
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Looks like you have to choose the right interpretation of a poll. This one says Camilla is fine in the polls, but another paper using the same poll results asserts the opposite. Can't be both ways. Might there be some 'cookin' of the polls'?

LINK: Camilla Parker Bowles’ Title As ‘Queen Consort’ When Prince Charles Becomes King Is Fine With Most Brits
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  #1059  
Old 10-13-2015, 11:21 PM
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Yes I'm well aware of history...aren't they supposed to have improved over the past several hundred years? Unless you are saying Charles isn't so bad because he hasn't killed two of his wives so far?


LaRae
The point that you seem to fail to get, though is that there is no moral requirement for the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. There is ABSOLUTELY NO MORAL REQUIREMENT. There isn't even much of a religious one for that matter.

In order to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England you have to be the king or queen of the United Kingdom. That's it. In order to be the the king or queen of the United Kingdom you have to be the senior most legitimate descendant of Sophia of Hanover and not a Catholic.

That means that in order to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England you don't have to be a moral, upstanding person. You don't even have to be an Anglican. You just have to have the right bloodline and not be a Catholic. Charles could convert to Islam tomorrow and would still be eligible to be the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and Defender of the Faith.

As for this morallity of monarchs since Henry VIII... actually, yes things have progressed since then and Charles being divorced is actually a sign of that. First of all, Charles' reasons for divorce were actually considerably more founded than Henry's - Charles' marriage dissolved because he and his wife were not compatible and really didn't love each other so he and his wife separated. It wasn't done because his wife failed to produce a male heir, or because she had affairs (which she did). His one affair wasn't dismissed as completely acceptable while hers were a crime. Charles' divorce affected him and his wife, not the whole realm because he didn't have the authority (or need) to change everyone's religion just to get a divorce. He didn't need to make up a reason to divorce his wife, nor did he get to send his wife into exile, or prison, or execute her. He also didn't make it so that his wife could never be with anyone else.

What's more is that we as a society largely don't believe that a couple should be condemned simply because they were married previously or because they were unable to make that first marriage work. It's hard to do when you consider that 50% of marriages end in divorce and in the Charles/Diana and Camilla/Andrew marriages everyone committed adultery.
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:37 AM
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I'm aware that there is no requirement to be moral or even religious.

No one is talking about anyone needing to be condemned and just because 50 percent of marriages end in divorce doesn't mean it's ok. Just because one person commits adultery doesn't mean it's ok.

What is the point of the farce then...if one doesn't even has to be moral or even part of the CoE why bother to begin with. It doesn't mean anything and before long neither will the monarchy.


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