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  #981  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:27 PM
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We don't know when it will happen, or what will happen when it does happen

Right now, all we know is what the PoW/CH announced- "It is intended that The Duchess will be known as HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne..."

Let's assume that Charles has acceded. What does he say? If he "makes" Camilla Queen, what should he say? Should he explain why he made the intended comment in 2005? Will he need to say why he changed his mind? Or was part of the 'deal' with HM or the CoE that Camilla could never be Queen?

If the Princess Consort plan goes forward, he still has a lengthy time before the Coronation to change his mind, depending on the mood of the British public. When polls are taken- and they will be- it should be very plain what his subjects want. Then he can decide.
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  #982  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
His Royal Highness is no title but a form of address, like His Eminence, His Excellency, His Grace, etc. It is connected to the position. Diana Spence could be addressed with her husband's titles and form of address. When she ended to be his spouse, logically also her husband's titles and form of address ended. So nothing was "removed" as also nothing was "given" to her. Her style was an automatism connected to her position as married wife to the holder of these titles. Her style ended when said marriage ended.
I believe that Lady Diana Spencer did not need to marry to have a title, my understanding is that she acquired one when her late father became an Earl on the death of his father. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
His Royal Highness is no title but a form of address, like His Eminence, His Excellency, His Grace, etc. It is connected to the position. Diana could be addressed with her husband's titles and form of address. When she ended to be his spouse, logically also her husband's titles and form of address ended. So nothing was "removed" as also nothing was "given" to her. Her form of address was an automatism connected to her position as married wife to the holder of these titles. This ended with the break-up of said marriage.
I am not sure the legal team involved took the same view, my understanding is that it was quite some sticking point in negotiations and obviously post divorce she was referred to as Diana, Princess of Wales. Again please if I am wrong let me know but I remember was it Mishon R & Co. who represented her handing out the press statement post the decree absolute. Am I wrong?
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  #983  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honeybees View Post
I believe that Lady Diana Spencer did not need to marry to have a title, my understanding is that she acquired one when her late father became an Earl on the death of his father. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
As daughter of an earl, Diana was entitled to be known as Lady Diana Spencer, but it was a courtesy title only, acquired because of her relationship to her father, not a title in her own right.
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  #984  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:37 PM
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Camilla and The Public

The Lady of Lady Diana Spencer is a courtesy title for the daughters of a Earl or above. It's only good for the person using it. It isn't passed down.

Charles doesn't have to do anything to make Camilla Queen. He already did it by marrying her. So when Elizabeth dies and Charles is still alive and Camilla is still married to Charles. She is the Queen Consort automatically


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  #985  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honeybees View Post
I believe that Lady Diana Spencer did not need to marry to have a title, my understanding is that she acquired one when her late father became an Earl on the death of his father. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Also Lady is no title but a form of address for a daughter of an Earl. Before that Diana had the form of address for a daughter of a Viscount: The Honourable.

The only one in the Spencer family whom holds a title of peerage is the Earl Spencer, who is also Viscount Althorp (that secondary title is used by his eldest son).
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  #986  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In principle yes. Queen Elizabeth created her husband a British Prince in his own right. Queen Victoria created her husband with the title "The Prince Consort". So when the King wants Camilla be known with a certain title, he can issue a Letters Patent.
. I believe that The then King after consultation with the then Prime Minister made the decision regarding Prince Phillips title post marriage to Princess Elizabeth and that prior to her coronation Princess Elizabeth discussed titles for Prince Philip with the then British Prime Minister. The British Royal Family are not autocrat's, it is my understanding that post The Magna Charta they lost quite a bit of power and The British Government as voted by the British public on their opinion of potential M.P's, on occasion advise H.M. The British public could decide that they no longer want a Royal family or as we seen with Scotland they can ask for a vote regarding their status with the U.K. Again I could be very wrong.
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  #987  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
As daughter of an earl, Diana was entitled to be known as Lady Diana Spencer, but it was a courtesy title only, acquired because of her relationship to her father, not a title in her own right.
You are correct, "Lady" Diana was only a courtesy.
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  #988  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
So why would Camila be Queen just because she is married to King Charles surely that's outdated
Of course it's outdated. Sexist and outdated. It is this way because of coverture: the doctrine that on marriage a woman's rights and identity were subsumed by those of her husband. She got to share his styles and titles because she was legally considered part of him...the lesser part.

I've rattled on about coverture at length here before. I won't do it again now, but look it up. It will make any woman with feminist notions of equality cringe, and maybe spit and hiss a bit and even throw things.
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  #989  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Also Lady is no title but a form of address for a daughter of an Earl. Before that Diana had the form of address for a daughter of a Viscount: The Honourable.

The only one in the Spencer family whom holds a title of peerage is the Earl Spencer, who is also Viscount Althorp (that secondary title is used by his eldest son).
I will have a flick through Burke's peerage and get back to yourself. I am correct however that at the time of her marriage she was styled, Lady Diana Spencer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnie View Post
You are correct, "Lady" Diana was only a courtesy.
But isn't it correct that as long as one does not intend to defraud, under English law one can change one's title to Lady or indeed anything else by Deedpoll?

Its a very interesting point and I will check it out the first chance I get.
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  #990  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:53 PM
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Sounds like Charles becoming King would be a good time to change things IMO


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  #991  
Old 09-15-2015, 06:54 PM
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Perhaps the Private Members Bill going through Parliament will change things?

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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
Sounds like Charles becoming King would be a good time to change things IMO


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Royal Rob, you never know but The Elected Government and House of Lords may change things prior to any future Coronation.
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  #992  
Old 09-15-2015, 07:00 PM
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Sounds like Charles becoming King would be a good time to change things IMO


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Change what? No more Queen consorts? So Catherine will not be Queen as well, nor will George's wife. Or things should be changed just for the duration of the reign of King Charles III?
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  #993  
Old 09-15-2015, 07:02 PM
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At time of wedding Lady Diana Spencer. Look at Margaret children to as example. Earl Snowdon son David Armstrong Jones uses the courtesy title of Viscount Linley. His daughter is Lady Sarah Armstrong Jones. Both children marry and have kids. Lady Sarah marries Daniel Chatto becomes Lady Sarah Chatto. Kids Arthur and Samuel Chatto. David married Serena. She takes his courtesy title becomes Vicountess Linley. Kids Honorable Charles and Margarita Armstrong Jones.

When Earl Snowdon dies, David becomes Earl Snowdon, his wife countess, Charles uses the courtesy title of Viscount Linley, Margarita becomes Lady Margarita. The Chattos stay the same.

The monarch determines who has a HRH and is a princess or Prince. The monarch also creates peerages. So it was Elizabeth who amended George V's Letters Patent to make Charlotte a HRH Princess by issuing her LPs without them she is Lady Charlotte Mountbatten Windsor until Charles becomes King. The Queen made Prince William Duke of Cambridge on his wedding day but common law made Catherine Middleton HRH Duchess of Cambridge.


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  #994  
Old 09-15-2015, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cris M View Post
Change what? No more Queen consorts? So Catherine will not be Queen as well, nor will George's wife. Or things should be changed just for the duration of the reign of King Charles III?
My understanding is change towards a more egalitarian regarding the sexes status was the issue being discussed. That was my understanding as that is what is currently being considered legislatively. I may be incorrect.
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  #995  
Old 09-15-2015, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Honeybees View Post
My understanding is change towards a more egalitarian regarding the sexes status was the issue being discussed. That was my understanding as that is what is currently being considered legislatively. I may be incorrect.
I understand. But I want to know what needs to be changed. The title of the woman who is married to the King? Will Camilla, Catherine and George's wife all be called Princesses Consorts?
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  #996  
Old 09-15-2015, 07:08 PM
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You change it for one, it changes for all. No Duchess to Dukes, Princess to Princes, Sir to Lady. In the future, it's HM King George VII and Ms. Olivia Smith.


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  #997  
Old 09-15-2015, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
You change it for one, it changes for all. No Duchess to Dukes, Princess to Princes, Sir to Lady. In the future, it's HM King George VII and Ms. Olivia Smith.


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Call me outdated, but what a sad prospect.
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  #998  
Old 09-15-2015, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cris M View Post
I understand. But I want to know what needs to be changed. The title of the woman who is married to the King? Will Camilla, Catherine and George's wife all be called Princesses Consorts?
. That is a very interesting question and I believe that the situation may change during the duration of this Parliament.
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  #999  
Old 09-15-2015, 07:21 PM
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What in parliament is a bill that would allow a eldest child to inherit a title instead of eldest male. The wife taking the style and title of husband is UK common law and not in debate in parliament as far as I know


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  #1000  
Old 09-15-2015, 07:25 PM
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Skippyboo first chance I get I will hit Hansards and the law books and get back to you but my understanding is that in English law there is no such thing as Common Law wife or Common Law husband and nothing to state that a wife take her husband's name.
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