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  #781  
Old 04-11-2015, 05:42 AM
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I think Camilla's situation provides an excellent opportunity to examine the issue of a woman taking her husband's styles and titles, and surname, on marriage, which is what we are talking about when we discuss whether Camilla should be Queen or Princess Consort.

The tradition can be traced back to the Normans. One of their "gifts" to Anglo-Saxon England was the concept of coverture, which provided that, on marriage, a woman ceased to have an independent identity. To quote from Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, Chapter 15: "By marriage, the husband and wife are one person in law: that is, the very being or legal existence of the woman is suspended during the marriage, or at least is incorporated and consolidated into that of the husband: under whose wing, protection, and cover, she performs everything; and is therefore called in our law-french a feme-covert [married woman]; is said to be covert-baron, or under the protection and influence of her husband, her baron, or lord; and her condition during her marriage is called her coverture." Blackstone delivered his lectures at Oxford in the 1750s. A married woman had no separate identity at all; she and her husband became the one legal person, and that person was the husband. It is for this reason that she took his surname and styles and titles. She had no choice, for her own identity was suspended during the marriage. There is nothing at all romantic about it: she was his property, merely an appendage of her husband. Things changed over the centuries and the momentum for change accelerated with women's rights movements in the 20th century and by the end of the 20th century the objectionable and archaic principle was merely a historical curiosity.

So why do so many people still accept that it is right and proper and normal for a woman to take her husband's styles and titles and surname on marriage? Why is it accepted as normal these days for a woman to be known as "Mrs John Smith" rather than "Ms Jane Smith". Jane Smith might have been happy as a clam to take on her husband's surname when she married, but she was not legally bound to do so. She can now buy and own her own property and dispose of it as she wishes. She can enter into contracts and obtain mortgages without her husband being her guarantor, and now even sue her husband if he commits a civil wrong against her, so why should she be addressed as merely the female appendage of her husband - Mrs John Smith - with no reference to her own identity as an individual? Likewise, why should Camilla necessarily become The Queen just because her husband is The King? Why can't she become The Princess Consort, or even The Queen though not be crowned with him at his coronation? Queens were only crowned because of that notion of coverture, i.e. she was part of him so she had to be part of the coronation. With the notable exception of the unfortunate Queen Caroline, that is, to prove the rule.

Some argue that for Camilla not to become Queen would mean that the marriage is a morganatic one, and morganatic marriage is not known in the UK. A morganatic marriage is one between people of unequal social rank and operates to prevent the wife from taking her husband's titles and privileges. In light of recent marriages such as Edward and Sophie's, and particularly William and Kate's, the concept of morganatic marriage definitely seems to be a non-starter in the UK and is totally irrelevant.

There is no law in the UK that requires a woman to take her husband's surname on marriage, and I see no reason why different rules should apply to the aristocracy and royalty, though I can certainly think of reasons why the women who marry aristocratic and royal men would like it to be so!

If Camilla wants to be known as The Princess Consort, why shouldn't she? Charles will have to create that title for her, but the fact that it is not the feminine form of an alternative, supplementary title that he holds should not be a reason to withhold it from Camilla if that is indeed what she wants. Would it really require an Act of Parliament? Why? I don't think it does. There is no extant law that requires her to be known as Queen Consort, so there is no law to overrule. It is only tradition that is in issue. Why can't she be known by that title, or even as Queen Consort but not be crowned? I can think of no valid reason.

Yes, I've said something similar before, but the more I think about it, the more I believe I am right. The law has left the notion of coverture behind, but we voluntarily bind ourselves and our families to the outdated notion of a woman taking her husband's style and titles and surname, when there is no reason in law to do so. It is a matter of personal choice, and that's fine. If Camilla chooses to be Princess Consort, that is what she should be, in my opinion, and her husband can give her that gift by way of Letters Patent. It is not a lesser title, just a different one. And if she chooses to be Queen Consort but not be crowned, she ought to be able to do that, too. She has already broken with tradition by being known as The Duchess of Cornwall instead of Princess of Wales; she can break another one by not being crowned with her husband. The world will not end if she does so and such different courses will become more acceptable.
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  #782  
Old 04-11-2015, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AfricanAUSSIE View Post
Might be the reason the Queen is still there, despite how difficult it must be for her to still keep all those public outings. Perhaps she can't bear it either?
The last time I checked, the Queen was still a mere mortal, and could not decide till when till when she "is still there". AS is the case in the UK, she will be monarch till she passes on.
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  #783  
Old 04-11-2015, 06:49 AM
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Ouch and another very nasty one :

Briton's don't want Queen Camilla amid cynical conspiracy | Daily Mail Online
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  #784  
Old 04-11-2015, 07:50 AM
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The mail has gone beyond their normal vitriol.

This is off topic but I have to say that Diana has not been airbrushed out. She is in fact, years gone and no longer photograph-able. Some people insist on airbrushing her in though. The article is a case in point.
Writing like this makes me want to bring back pelting with old fruit and veg as a deterrent for ill behavior.
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  #785  
Old 04-11-2015, 08:43 AM
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I am no native English speaker but eeeerh... isn't the plural of Briton atually Britons?

Briton's don't want Queen Camilla...

It is telling for the standards maintained at the Daily Mail...
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  #786  
Old 04-12-2015, 04:58 PM
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Once again, posts rehashing the Charles, Diana, Camilla triangle have been deleted.

If you wish to discuss Charles and Diana’s marriage, do it in the 'Charles and Diana' thread. Discussions about Charles and Camilla's marriage belong in the 'Charles and Camilla: Marriage' thread. Please stay on topic, which is Camilla and the public. Any further off-topic posts will be deleted.
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  #787  
Old 04-16-2015, 09:14 AM
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I believe Camilla has done very well trying to put her best foot forward in terms of quietly supporting her husband and showing her kind and compassionate nature. She could do a tremendous amount of good as Queen. However, it is going to be a bit of a hot mess navigating these issues when the time arises for Prince Charles to become King.
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  #788  
Old 04-16-2015, 01:00 PM
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I'm not convinced that Camilla wants the title of Queen. She seems to like having her own space, and I'm not sure that would be possible if she were Queen Consort. Granted, Buckingham Palace is a large place. I think also that her responsibilities would be greater than if she were Princess Consort, and she sometimes strikes me as being somewhat physically frail.
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  #789  
Old 04-16-2015, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
[....] She seems to like having her own space, and I'm not sure that would be possible if she were Queen Consort. Granted, Buckingham Palace is a large place. [...]
And Windsor Castle, and Clarence House, and St James' Palace, and Balmoral Castle, and Sandringham House, and Highgrove House, and the country residence in Canmarthenshire, etc. etc. etc. ...

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  #790  
Old 04-16-2015, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I'm not convinced that Camilla wants the title of Queen. She seems to like having her own space, and I'm not sure that would be possible if she were Queen Consort. Granted, Buckingham Palace is a large place. I think also that her responsibilities would be greater than if she were Princess Consort, and she sometimes strikes me as being somewhat physically frail.
You noticed her gait and posture as well? As a former Orthopedic nurse, it caught my eye immediately a couple of years ago when I first started paying more attention to the British Royals. I know her Mother passed away from complications due to Osteoporosis, and I do hope she is not heading down the same path with that terrible affliction. You are right; she might do better as Princess Consort, since these things do have to be taken into consideration- as well as her feelings on the matter.
Mara
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  #791  
Old 04-16-2015, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Mara View Post
I believe Camilla has done very well trying to put her best foot forward in terms of quietly supporting her husband and showing her kind and compassionate nature. She could do a tremendous amount of good as Queen. However, it is going to be a bit of a hot mess navigating these issues when the time arises for Prince Charles to become King.
I've always assumed that because C&C will likely be eighty-ish when Charles ascends, that the issue of her being Queen wouldn't be a problem. It's hard to be angry with very old people over the sins of their youth.

But Charles' assertion that she would be known as Princess Consort could come back to haunt him, regardless of his age. People don't like being misled/deceived by/lied to.
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  #792  
Old 04-16-2015, 08:19 PM
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People have 'intentions' to do things all their lives and things change. They haven't deceived anyone or lied to them - circumstances change.
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  #793  
Old 04-16-2015, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Mara View Post
You noticed her gait and posture as well? As a former Orthopedic nurse, it caught my eye immediately a couple of years ago when I first started paying more attention to the British Royals. I know her Mother passed away from complications due to Osteoporosis, and I do hope she is not heading down the same path with that terrible affliction. You are right; she might do better as Princess Consort, since these things do have to be taken into consideration- as well as her feelings on the matter.
Mara
Thank you for your input as I've noticed this about her posture, but was unaware that it could affect a person's gait as well. My neighborhood is home to many Japanese expats and there are a number of elderly ladies who appear to have a form of Osteoporosis.
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  #794  
Old 04-16-2015, 09:02 PM
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Can osteoporosis be hereditary? Perhaps Camilla's grandmother had the same condition. I have noticed from Camilla's photographs over the past ten years or so that she sometimes appears to have slumping back and shoulders. And yes, she does sometimes appear frail. The Queen does too, but at nearly eighty nine that is natural. Surely Camilla, aware of her family history, will be having regular checkups?
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  #795  
Old 04-16-2015, 09:20 PM
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The Queen looks to be in great shape and I don't ever see her stepping down for Charles nether. So when Charles does become king his going be up in age like Camilla and I can see William having to step up and start doing royal duties and setting in for Charles. So I don't see what the big deal is about Camilla becoming Queen, if it had been back years ago I could see people not wanting her to be Queen. But it's 2015 and who knows when Charles will take the throne.
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  #796  
Old 04-18-2015, 02:57 PM
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I've noticed it more recently, but I don't have your trained eye. Camilla's not 70 yet, but her movements are of an older lady. In contrast, it's only in the last few years that I've really noticed the Queen slowing down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Mara View Post
You noticed her gait and posture as well? As a former Orthopedic nurse, it caught my eye immediately a couple of years ago when I first started paying more attention to the British Royals. I know her Mother passed away from complications due to Osteoporosis, and I do hope she is not heading down the same path with that terrible affliction. You are right; she might do better as Princess Consort, since these things do have to be taken into consideration- as well as her feelings on the matter.
Mara
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  #797  
Old 04-18-2015, 03:32 PM
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Camilla's health as nothing to do with her future title. Whether, she's Her Majesty The Queen or Her Royal Highness The Princess Consort, her royal roles remain the same.
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  #798  
Old 04-18-2015, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
People have 'intentions' to do things all their lives and things change. They haven't deceived anyone or lied to them - circumstances change.
What was the motivation behind the original 'intention'? To soothe the public?
What are the circumstances that have changed?

I like Camilla, and I'm glad Charles was willing to make an 'honest woman' of her, rather than humiliating her. But why was it necessary to intend to give her one title 10 years ago, and now to intend to give her another (if indeed he does)? He should have said either nothing, or else said, 'of course she'll be Queen.'

He wouldn't/couldn't have been kept from marrying her, so why the equivocation?

IMO, it makes him look weak and deceitful. I don't care if she becomes Queen, but I can think what I like about Charles and his character. He should have been strong enough to say nothing about the intention. I doubt the Queen encouraged him to say something he didn't really mean.
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  #799  
Old 04-18-2015, 04:35 PM
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To be honest, I think a lot of all this actually has to do with Camilla herself. From what I understand, prior to the time of the engagement and then the marriage, she would have been very happy to just have things remain the way they were and stay very much in the background of things. I think she viewed what it would entail if she married Charles with a bit of trepidation. Full scale role in the limelight in the royal fishbowl would give anyone the heebeejeebees let alone a woman approaching her 60s. Not only just becoming Charles' wife but also Princess of Wales (Duchess of Cornwall was her choice I believe) and after that Queen Consort of the UK. Quite a daunting prospect. Unsure of just how she would fit into a royal role without any kind of previous experience, she might have just envisioned a role where she would support her husband and be there for him and the proverbial 3 steps behind kind of thing and like Philip, be a Princess Consort to Charles and let him be the King.

Time changes things and as we've all seen, Camilla has most likely surpassed her own expectations of herself in a royal role. She's done very nicely and hasn't put a foot wrong and 10 years down the road, perhaps the idea of being Queen Consort isn't such a daunting prospect.
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  #800  
Old 04-18-2015, 04:37 PM
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The Queen can end all this. When she orders Buckingham Palace to speak about "The Prince and Princess of Wales" in the Court Circular and in all media connunications, then that is a fait accompli.

"The Princess of Wales, Prince Henry of Wales, The Duchess of Cambridge and other Members of the Royal Family drove to Horse Guards Parade and witnessed The Queen's Birthday Parade."


"The Prince and The Princess of Wales this afternoon attended the Prince's Countryside Fund's Race Day at Ascot Racecourse."


"The Prince of Wales, President, and The Princess of Wales this evening gave a Dinner for the Royal Ballet School."


In no time people will get used to it. And when they are used to Camilla as The Princess of Wales, they will be used to her as The Queen.
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