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  #541  
Old 11-05-2014, 11:41 AM
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Whilst trying to find out about the laws relating to royal titles etc, I came across the following, which may be of interest: -

Will Camilla actually be Princess Consort?
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  #542  
Old 11-05-2014, 12:19 PM
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The article isn't accurate. When it says its only tradition the wife of King is a Queen misses the point. Tradition makes up a large part of The British Constitution. Common Law is clear that the wife of a British King shall be Queen. There has been no exception in history. The precedent is iron clad.

People are mistaking royal titles with Queen Consort. Unlike the style of HRH and the titles of Prince and Princess, Queen Consort is simply the female partner of the King.

Remember back to the Abdication crisis. It was ruled that although the King has the royal prerogative to regulate the use of HRH there was nothing could be done about Wallace becoming Duchess of Windsor because she took that title under Common Law and not even the King could change this.

So whether or not Camilla is made a Princess in her own right doesn't not change the fact she will still be Queen under the law.
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  #543  
Old 11-05-2014, 01:13 PM
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Surely Clarence House and Charles knew what they were doing when they said Camilla would be Princess Consort? If they didn't, that doesn't say much for them. And if they said it with no intentions to follow it, that doesn't say much for them, either. Which is it- ignorance, a lie, both, or neither?
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  #544  
Old 11-05-2014, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The article isn't accurate. When it says its only tradition the wife of King is a Queen misses the point. Tradition makes up a large part of The British Constitution. Common Law is clear that the wife of a British King shall be Queen. There has been no exception in history. The precedent is iron clad.

People are mistaking royal titles with Queen Consort. Unlike the style of HRH and the titles of Prince and Princess, Queen Consort is simply the female partner of the King.

Remember back to the Abdication crisis. It was ruled that although the King has the royal prerogative to regulate the use of HRH there was nothing could be done about Wallace becoming Duchess of Windsor because she took that title under Common Law and not even the King could change this.

So whether or not Camilla is made a Princess in her own right doesn't not change the fact she will still be Queen under the law.
You are entirely correct, common law has set the precedent over hundreds of years that the wife of the king shall be queen. The precedent is iron clad and the king cannot prevent his wife from using the title or anyone else referring to her as that. This is the same as a wife or anyone else taking her husbands title, such as Mrs John Smith or Duchess of Kent - any many people in those categories choose not to.
If the situation remains the same when Charles becomes king and he or both of them still wish for Camilla to be known as Princess Consort, then it seems she will.
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  #545  
Old 11-05-2014, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
You are entirely correct, common law has set the precedent over hundreds of years that the wife of the king shall be queen. The precedent is iron clad and the king cannot prevent his wife from using the title or anyone else referring to her as that. This is the same as a wife or anyone else taking her husbands title, such as Mrs John Smith or Duchess of Kent - any many people in those categories choose not to.
If the situation remains the same when Charles becomes king and he or both of them still wish for Camilla to be known as Princess Consort, then it seems she will.

As I understand it, the point in the article is that, in the absence of specific acts of Parliament regulating the matter, royal titles and styles are actually the monarch's prerogative. Since royal prerogative overrides the common law, there is no legal impediment to make Camilla princess consort rather than queen if Charles so wishes. I firmly believe that is what is going to happen. She will be an H.R.H rather than H.M. and, for all practical purposes, lower in rank than the consorts of other European monarchs. In fact, I assume Camilla will still have to curtsy to the queen consorts e.g. of Sweden, the Netherlands, Spain, or Belgium, even after Charles ascends the throne.
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  #546  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
The poll conducted in June 2014 was positive. It was posted by Lee-Z.

53% for Queen Consort and 32% for Princess Consort.

Lee-Z, I also could not find anything on Yougov to support the Daily Mail article. The Daily Mail article did not have a link to the poll.
yeah, i was looking for it because i tend to take DM coverage with a grain of salt, esp. without a link provided, but i couldn't find it online..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
A new YouGov poll just out has only 16% of Britons wanting a Queen Camilla. 46% say she should be Princess Consort.
Do you have an online link to this YouGov poll so we can compare the way the questioned with the june 2014 poll?
I'd be interested how much is actually in the poll and how much is the DM-flavour added to it?
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  #547  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
There are no statutes regulating the title of the monarch's consort AFAIK. We cannot assume then that Camilla will be automatically queen consort when Charles becomes king.

Furthermore, her future title does matter in practice. If she is titled "queen", she will be referred to as "Her Majesty" and princes/princesses of foreign royal houses who are H.R.H's will have to bow/curtsy to her. If she remains "princess consort" only, she will be just an H.R.H. and, most likely, won't get any bow/curtsy from continental crown princes/princesses, with the possible exception of Mette-Marit, who seems to curtsy to everybody (even president Obama and CP Mary of Denmark !).
We can assume. The precedent of Caroline of Brunswick shows that the wife of the King of the UK is the Queen - even if he doesn't want to recognize her as such.

British common law is that a woman takes the female equivalent of her husband's titles, where applicable. She can chose to not use said titles, but she still holds them. In order for Camilla to not hold the title Queen Consort legislature has to be drawn up to deprive her of that title. In order for her to hold any title other than Queen Consort then LPs have to be issued in order to create her as such.

Do the Continental princes and princesses curtsey to Charlene of Monaco? Or Maria of Liechtenstein, or Maria Teresa of Luxembourg? None of them are Queen Consorts, but they're all the consorts of the head of state of their respective realms.
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  #548  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
What I don't like is the seemingly cavalier attitude towards Camilla being Queen. When William decides to spend Christmas with the Middletons people pull their hair out as if the future of the monarchy depends on him being at Sandringham and yet here we have C&C thumbing their noses at hundreds of years of tradition and common law because of some PR stunt. I just don't get it
I wouldn't say that there's a cavalier attitude being taken here at all. Many people who seem to understand the huge implications of this are strongly against it.

Those who support the idea of Princess Consort seem to be either those who are fans of Diana (and often seem to still hold a grudge) or are those who will support the BRF regardless of what they're doing.
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  #549  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:06 PM
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And Charles doesn't exactly come across like he really knows what he is talking about regarding this issue. Remember back in 2010 when NBC's Brian Williams asked Charles would Camilla be Queen when he takes the throne?

Answer: “Er, that’s, that’s, we’ll see, won’t we? But, er, that could be.”
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  #550  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
And Charles doesn't exactly come across like he really knows what he is talking about regarding this issue. Remember back in 2010 when NBC's Brian Williams asked Charles would Camilla be Queen when he takes the throne?

Answer: “Er, that’s, that’s, we’ll see, won’t we? But, er, that could be.”
I actually think he knows exactly what he is doing. The question was probably planted to get the public used to be idea. The answer was completely non-committal, either way. Soon after the incident, Camilla was asked the very same question by the child whilst she was on an engagement. Without a flap she replied, "Who knows!"

I think the plan very much is to stick to the current line for now, and when the time comes, say that the Government of the day requires that the wife of the King be Queen.
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  #551  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post

Do the Continental princes and princesses curtsey to Charlene of Monaco? Or Maria of Liechtenstein, or Maria Teresa of Luxembourg?
I don't think they do, but Maria Teresa and Charlene both curtsy to Queen Elizabeth II for example. Hence, my conclusion that HRH The Princess Consort (Camilla) would curtsy to H.M. Queen Maxima , Queen Letizia, Queen Silvia, or Queen Mathilde.
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  #552  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
I'm not actually disputing whether their marriage is legal because that's above my pay grade but what interests me is the issue of Princess Consort. From a legal point of view the only reason Camilla can't be Queen is if her marriage isn't valid for whatever reason.

I think its fair to say that Charles has received conflicting legal and constitutional advice from ministers over the years. Yes Lord Falconer says it legal but others say it isn't.

We will never know what was said behind closed doors because the records have been sealed until after Charles's death. Then Justice Secretary Jack Straw blocked a Freedom of Information request to make public the advice given to the then Lord Chancellor Lord Falconer before he gave the wedding the go-ahead.

So we don't know what Lord Falconer based his opinion on nor do we know what negative views were offered.

Maybe Charles isn't 100 percent confident that if challenged his marriage would stand because it strikes me as bizarre that if this was purely an exercise in PR it would have ended years ago. Why keep up this line of Princess Consort unless there is some other fly in the ointment.
I strongly doubt that Charles isn't confident in the legality of his marriage. Had they been unclear on whether or not he could get married in a civil marriage then he could have easily gone up to Scotland, put on a kilt, and gotten married in the Church of Scotland like Anne did (well, minus the kilt).
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  #553  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I don't think they do, but Maria Teresa and Charlene both curtsy to Queen Elizabeth II for example. Hence, my conclusion that HRH The Princess Consort (Camilla) would curtsy to H.M. Queen Maxima , Queen Letizia, Queen Silvia, or Queen Mathilde.
For what it is worth, Camilla did curtsy to both MT and Charlene when they came to the UK in May 2012 in connection with HMs Diamond Jubilee.

Whilst Charlene did curtsy to HM, Albert did not, when HM and the DoE received them at WIndsor.
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  #554  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
She will be an H.R.H rather than H.M. and, for all practical purposes, lower in rank than the consorts of other European monarchs. In fact, I assume Camilla will still have to curtsy to the queen consorts e.g. of Sweden, the Netherlands, Spain, or Belgium, even after Charles ascends the throne.
Prince Philip is merely an HRH and not an HM, and he does not curtsy to other monarchs or consorts, so I doubt if Camilla (should she be Princess Consort) will.
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  #555  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
For what it is worth, Camilla did curtsy to both MT and Charlene when they came to the UK in May 2012 in connection with HMs Diamond Jubilee.

Whilst Charlene did curtsy to HM, Albert did not, when HM and the DoE received them at WIndsor.
I recall that Princess Diana and Princess Anne, as well as Infantas Elena and Cristina, all curtsied to Queen Beatrix (as expected), but they never curtsied to Prince Claus (HRH The Prince of the Netherlands). I don't recall if they ever curtsied to Hendrik of Denmark.
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  #556  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I recall that Princess Diana and Princess Anne, as well as Infantas Elena and Cristina, all curtsied to Queen Beatrix (as expected), but they never curtsied to Prince Claus (HRH The Prince of the Netherlands). I don't recall if they ever curtsied to Hendrik of Denmark.
I am not familiar with the event you are referring to, but I would have expected that Claus receive curtsies from the princesses / Infanta's as he was the consort of a reigning monarch.
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  #557  
Old 11-05-2014, 03:20 PM
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See this is the issue that I'm sure the government will never allow. For Camilla to be HRH implies a lower rank than her husband and all sorts of people from religious figures on down will say "Well if the wife of the King can be a lower rank than why can't I demote my own wife's rank"

If the marriage is legal and we seem to think it is there is no way on earth a British Parliament will ever allow hundreds of years of common law to be flushed down the toilet on basically a lark. Women's groups will go up the wall I would imagine.
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  #558  
Old 11-05-2014, 03:55 PM
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I think they'll stick with Princess Consort for some time, then they'll start to say "It'll be decided when the Prince Wales becomes King", but when the time comes I believe the Duchess will be Her Majesty the Queen.

I just can't imagine King Charles III thinking: "So mum has just died, now I'll give Camilla the title of Princess Consort".
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  #559  
Old 11-05-2014, 04:25 PM
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Basically, they never should of brought up the issue at the time of their marriage.


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  #560  
Old 11-05-2014, 05:31 PM
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Her future title may end up being different than usual but I think people should stop holding Camilla's past mistakes over her head. Camilla has been nothing but respectful of the late Princess and her step-children. Whether she's crowned Queen or coronated HRH The Princess Consort, I just hope people respect the titles and show some respect for Camilla's role.
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