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  #401  
Old 05-17-2006, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
In my opinion we should not judge other people's decisions when we never led their life and felt their pressures.

But - in my opinion the fact that adulterous behaviour is frowned upon by most people does not necessarily mean that people who behave like that don't have an utmost human reason to react thus. Maybe they are weaker than we are who did not do it. But maybe they simply had experiences in their life, crashed hopes, lost wishes so that they turned to someone else for the compassion we all need sometimes. Lucky are those who find that compassion (like me) in their marriage. Lucky are those who are able to go public with the truth and are able to find an HEA with another after they paid the price. Unfortunate those who suffer because they find that marriage vows make cold companions when there is no longer love in marriage.

and believe me: I wish Camilla would tell some day the truth as she experienced it. I guess we would love her even more. But being the true friend that she is she will never wash Charles' linen in public.
What a beautiful post Jo of Palantine (which I thought I had better shorten a bit), I bolded the last portion because in that, you are absolutely correct! IMO :)
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  #402  
Old 05-17-2006, 06:40 PM
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Indeed, an excellent post, Jo of Palatine.
Very true, objective and fair, imo.
I don't think Camilla will ever speak her version of the events. It's just not something a peerson with her charecter can do, imo.
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  #403  
Old 05-17-2006, 07:08 PM
Gentry
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
Kate Julie

Everything you have said is just gossip put about by Diana and the media she used. Do you have any corroborating evidence from anyone who was there and actually heard or saw any of this? I am convinced, as I said, the main reason most of them dislike Camilla is because she replaced their 'idea' of a princess but, of course they didn't have to live with the reality.

Good grief, if one of her crimes was to try to befriend Diana, then the rest of Charles' set and his family must be terrible people as well. Isn't that what everyone does when someone 'new' is introduced into a group. Thank goodness for friends like Camilla, willing to welcome new people.

The job Camilla is doing, for her husband and for her country is IMO wonderful and has actually made the people disillusioned with the celebrity culture, more interested in royalty.
It is NOT a crime to befriend someone with the genuine thought of offering the hand of friendship, but I find it very disgusting when someone may have ulterior motives for offering the hand of friendship- and in this case and in my personal opinion, there were ulterior motives to befriend and get close to Diana, Princess of Wales, from camilla.:)
  #404  
Old 05-17-2006, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate Julie
It is NOT a crime to befriend someone with the genuine thought of offering the hand of friendship
Which of course, unless you have evidence to the contrary, is exactly what Camilla did. Thank goodness there are very many people willing to see the good in others.:)
  #405  
Old 05-17-2006, 07:35 PM
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camilla and charles: What is Your Opinion Now?

I would suggest that this thread is only looking for positive feedback, on camilla and charles.

If someone came on board and said as for instance , what I did, about not be a fan, that is totally unacceptable and one soon knows they are in camilla and charles territory. So one should NOT be honest.

The title of the thread is misleading, because one feels you can just say it as you feel it. Once something negative has been said, one gets zeroed in on, and pressure is put on you to modify your opinion and to a more positive view.

Thank goodness I genuinely like and respect other royals, e.g The Kents, The Gloucesters, The Queen and others.

When you are all of the same mind and opinion , and just stating how lovely camilla is in this hat or that hat, time must drag.
With all due respect to this thread

Kate Julie
  #406  
Old 05-17-2006, 07:45 PM
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This isnt just a pro Camilla thread and those were not my intentions when I started this thread but some people get overly defending too quickly. It is just that I want people to look at these two Royals completely. One event or moment in someones life does not define them. Post the pros and cons and try to open yourself up to more possibilities. Damning and ignoring them for a mistake of the past is not fair to them when there is so much more to them and so much more that they do. Just be more thorough in your explanation and I hope other members will be respectfull.
  #407  
Old 05-17-2006, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
camilla and charles: What is Your Opinion Now?

I would suggest that this thread is only looking for positive feedback, on camilla and charles.
Nonsense.

Quote:
If someone came on board and said as for instance , what I did, about not be a fan, that is totally unacceptable and one soon knows they are in camilla and charles territory. So one should NOT be honest.
What do you mean, "that is totally unacceptable"? Are you seriously claiming that there are no negative opinions of Charles and Camilla anywhere in the thread? We don't permit insults or name-calling; we do permit criticism, especially if it's backed up by facts and reasoned opinions.

Quote:
The title of the thread is misleading, because one feels you can just say it as you feel it. Once something negative has been said, one gets zeroed in on, and pressure is put on you to modify your opinion and to a more positive view.
As you're no doubt aware, this is a subject where opinions run high on both sides, so any time anyone posts an opinion on a thread like this or the equivalent Diana thread, there'll be someone coming along to challenge it. That's only to be expected in a discussion about such a contentious subject. All of the moderators on this forum have been accused of being pro-Camilla by some posters and pro-Diana by others. That seems to me to suggest that we're managing to find some sort of middle ground. If you seriously believe that we're biased to the point where opinions on one side of the argument are being systematically suppressed in order to support the other side, by all means take it up with the other three administrators by private message. Complaints about the way the board is run are inappropriate in the open threads.
  #408  
Old 05-17-2006, 08:39 PM
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Maybe that's just the British Royal way. Mistresses have helped kings for years in lots of personal matters. And wasn't Camilla's great great great grandmother the mistress of Prince Charles' great great great grandfather? It seems to me as if this sort of stuff in any royal family goes on and the members learn to grow accustomed to it. If this is what they do then this what they do, I just think bringing failry innocent people into the mix is just unfair. Maybe find someone who knows what the game is all about and is willing to be the wife but technically the other woman?

But-horrors I can't believe that I'm saying this-in Camilla's defense, I really don't think she was trying to sacrifice Diana or anything, I really think she truly thought, well if it's not going to be me, let me find someone who is suitable for the man I love. And while I think the notion is quite strange, I guess in a way it makes sense. I mean when you care about someone, you want the best for them, even if you aren't part of the "best" package.
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  #409  
Old 05-17-2006, 09:11 PM
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{response to deleted post removed - Elspeth} I somehow just don't think it is fair, that one has to like the duchess and former mistress! I have never critized her looks, or her hats, I simply do not like the character of the person!
  #410  
Old 05-17-2006, 09:52 PM
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It was just very sad because Charles and Diana were very ill-matched. The huge gap between them are almost impossible to make up. Their marriage was doomed to fail from the beginning. Charles and Camilla are always good friends becasue she is always there for him whenever he needs her.It is a great friendship rather than just a passionate love affair. Charles and Camilla are just soulmates and they are destined to be together. Unfortunately, it was the royal protocal which prevented them marrying at the first place and it was the royal protocal which forced Charles to marry Diana.

Diana is not Camilla. Camilla loves her man and she will do everything to make him happy. It is hard to accept, but I believe that Camilla chose Diana because she believed that Diana was good for Charles. For instance, Diana loved children and she would be a good mother. Diana was young and Charles can mould her into his ideal wife. Diana was soft and Charles was not strong enough to have a forceful wife. Diana said she loved Charles very much and Camilla expected her to please Charles in everything. Camilla just got Diana wrong because they loved Charles in different ways. Camilla loved Charles in a more matured way and she put his happiness and his future before everything.

Even it was cruel, but Camilla's interferece was just because Charles was very low in his marriage and Camilla wanted to boost his mood. Camilla and Charles are just always too passionate for each other.always. They has a very strong bond since when they are in early 20s. It was Camilla who turned Charles from a shy university graduate to a real man before he went to the navy. Thus Camilla is irreplaceable in his life. The mutual affection fuels the physical relationships or their adultery in the case and vice versa. Charles and Camilla are just the sides of a coin and they match each other perfectly in every way.

If Charles were an ordinary person, he would divorce Diana and asked Camilla to remarry him. But he wasn't, there was no way out. So Charles and Diana began to have their own lovers and went separated ways. Just try to be fair to both Charles and Diana. Charles did want to his marriage to work and he tried, but he failed. No enough people believe he did, especially for those pro-Diana. But Charles did try hard but it was an impossible mission. Don't just blame Charles and Camilla. Charles and Diana are just people in two different worlds.
  #411  
Old 05-17-2006, 10:03 PM
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Many people blamed Camilla for lurking in the background especially for those are pro-Diana. But Camilla is a good friend, always a good friend. And Charles always wants his friends to listen to his pains and help him to cure the pains. It is just very misleading because people regarded Camilla as Charles' mistress at first not his best friend at the first. Such a good friend that Charles can share everything in his life with Camilla, his happiness and his frustrations and his failures. She is far too much protective and mothering of Charles. She cannot stand the idea of let Charles suffering from any pains. She is just too blind to see others and refused to walk out the matter which hurts Charles.Both Charles and Camilla are too protective of each other. Neither Charles or Camilla would drop the matter which can make the other suffer. I think Charles helped Camilla to walk out the pains of Andrew's unfaithfulness and Camilla just helps Charles to smooth the difficulties in his life. But they two are always too close and too dangerous to develop a love affair not mentioning their undying passions for each other.
  #412  
Old 05-17-2006, 10:33 PM
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Where are the reliable sources that say Camilla found Diana as a womb for Charles? This sounds like tabloid fodder. Less speculation please. This last page reads like some fantasy novel.
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  #413  
Old 05-17-2006, 10:39 PM
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I feel sad that time and again people accuse Camilla of sacrificing Diana and using her to bear the next heir to the throne. I feel sad beacuse people believe with such conviction about something which may or may not have happenned in reality.

Maybe Camilla did propose to Charles about her, but why do we need to presume that her motive in doing was beacuse she perceived her as a mouse. Couldn't it have been that the shyness and introvertness which Diana displayed during those early years could be a perfect match for Charles' insecuritites. I do not claim to know if Charles and Camilla were having an affair or not at this time/ whether the sparks were there or not. But sometimes in a marriage other than love people do look for various other things. Especially people whose social circle has certain expectations and unspoken norms. It could be that Charles, Camilla and all those other who deemed Diana to be the pefect match expected that this similarity in personalities could lead to a companionship which results in a different love. Especially in light of notion that the POW's marriage would be for keeps. Wouldn't it have been better that 25 yrs later there would be a chemistry in form of long friendship, understanding and similar interests ?

I have seen a lot of arranged marriages from where I come and some based on love. It is funny but somewhere along the line that distinction is erased away. In the end what remains is not the love that brought you together, but what you were able to cultivate along the course. And I strongly believe that POW is not that insensitive a man. It is not something which you can turn on and off on your will. Someone who felt the need to be appreciated, to be loved so constantly would have never taken a young girl for a ride. Even if he had that form of support from elsewhere. So I do believe that the pictures people saw on that wedding day were true. I will not be a judge for how long it remained that way and whose fault it was but it was not such a cold hearted decision that people make it out to be.

And as it is fair to look from other side what is to say that Diana did not want to step in the role of POW's wife. Maybe she fell for the idea of prince charming, of happily ever after considering what she had to suffer through her childhood. The definition of love differs from person to person. Maybe what POW offered her at that time felt like love to her and which as she matured, changed.

However the most interesting point in this whole drama is how in our involvement with the leads, we underestimate the supporting leads. People give Camilla credit for a lot more than she may have been at the time. Do you really think that her influence on him have been the most significant. At that time he did have his grandmother who may have nudged him in that direction seeing as how she was a friend of Diana's grandmother. Pow himself has mentioned about DoE's pressures and maybe the Queen too felt that Diana was perfect. From Diana's side she must have had inner influences too. What were the chances that Camilla whom she just met could have persuaded her in taking such a significant step of her life ?

It is ironical isn't it that all these people have been forgiven and forgotten. People rave about The Queen Mother and HM The Queen and their devotion to the monarchy and to their family. I too have respect for them but does that make them perfect. Couldn't it have been that their lapse in judgement gave encouragement to this doomed affair? And yet their better work makes it for them and all the blame lies on these two or three depending on your take. For me all of them were victims. Diana was wronged but wasn't Camilla too. She came on the scene and her past prevailed over her as a person. A past which was reflected in future of Diana and even then she is considered a saint and Camilla the Satan.

Sorry for putting up with my long post.
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  #414  
Old 05-17-2006, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Where are the reliable sources that say Camilla found Diana as a womb for Charles? This sounds like tabloid fodder.
Gyles Brandreth and countless others have written that Charles asked Camilla to find him a wife. The term for this used to be "a womb", something Princess Michael used in her fake sheik interview and explained in a later interview with Wogan.
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  #415  
Old 05-17-2006, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Where are the reliable sources that say Camilla found Diana as a womb for Charles? This sounds like tabloid fodder.
I had not heard the story of Camilla actually finding Diana as a suitable womb for Charles until reading this thread, but apparently numerous reliable sources exist (Princess Michael of Kent being one) who claim that Diana's role was to be a womb for Charles.
  #416  
Old 05-17-2006, 10:54 PM
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Well said, Capricorninin. I too agree that Camilla was not the sole influencer that helped Charles to marry Diana. I do think Queen mother praised Diana and encourgaged Charles to marry her. Queen was not against the idea even it was said that she had worries in Diana. DoE just wanted Charles to marry a girl to produce the heirs and do his duty and Diana was perfect to be a princess. Not mentioning the courtiers, the press, the public who supported and excited by the idea of Charles marrying Diana.

Marrying Diana was a typical kind of decisions made by Charles who always believes others's judgement. Charles did believe that he could learn to love Diana after their marriage because he regarded Diana as a sweet-character girl. Unfortunately he failed to do so, not because his affections for Camilla but the huge gap of lifestyles and conflicts in characters that contributed to the failure of their marriage. Charles regarded his marriage as a partnership and a deep friendship and shared interests and a good home for children. We can see how different from the fact. Unfortunately Charles and Diana were just ill matched.
  #417  
Old 05-17-2006, 10:58 PM
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Ok seriously, all of you stop for one second. I know Im not a moderater or anything but I started this thread with a purpose and I dont like where its going. I want all you who have been keeping this thread busy to stop and breathe.

First, post what you thought of them in the past. By past, I mean before there engagment. Why did you think that?

Example: I thought she was a total tramp. She went and ruined the peoples princess live from the begining. She is evil and vile and the sight of her makes me want to vomit.

Second, what did you think of them after one year of marriage. Why?

Example: I dont know what happened in the past and I dont think I ever will. Charles is the happiest I have ever seen him and he seems much more happier doing his job. Camilla has come off as very charming. She is so elegant and has a killer sense of humour. She is a confident, strong women and does not rely on men but makes men think she needs them. A tough cookie but a tasty one nontheless.

Third, judge them on there job as royals and ONLY as royals. You can only judge them by what you know for certain and how they are doing there work.

Example: Charles has worked so hard for so many causes. He is a bit eclectic with his choices and I think if he was more focused he would have a better impact but he is still having an impact on what he does. He is modern man with realistic visions of the future. Its a shame he is cast off so easily as a nuissance because he has something good to say. Camilla has started off very well. She is very good accompening the PoW and they make the perfect charming couple. She has started a good solo status and is progressing. I would still like to see her start doing a little more but it is still understandable for her to be going slower than normal.

Or make a list of pros and cons or something but lets be respective and let others have their opinions.

--Moderator's Note: Normally moderators are the only ones that should moderate people's behavior in a thread, however, princejohnny has made quite a few good comments that the moderators of the forum share and we feel it beneficial to remain for the rest of the members. In the future though, let the moderators do the moderating.
  #418  
Old 05-17-2006, 11:02 PM
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About the womb, the bottom line of a royal marriage is to produce heirs and Diana and Charles only achieved that. It was very sad of course. But I don't believe that Charles only wanted Diana to be a womb and he did hope that they two would grow to love each other after marriage.

Depending how you defines. Charles's ideal wife is a woman who can provide the warmth, the understanding, the steadity to him and support him in his duty. He wants a woman who can share his burden of being Prince of Wales and being life companions.
  #419  
Old 05-17-2006, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Gyles Brandreth and countless others have written that Charles asked Camilla to find him a wife. The term for this used to be "a womb", something Princess Michael used in her fake sheik interview and explained in a later interview with Wogan.
You said Gyles Brandreth and countless others have said this. I've read a lot of biographies (not the Brandreth one yet), and they aren't at all unanimous. If it wasn't the Queen Mother and Lady Fermoy plotting, it was Charles's wider group of friends or it was Charles himself who was impressed by Diana's empathy with how he must have been feeling after Lord Mountbatten's funeral. Of course an indecisive person like Charles was going to rely on his friends for advice, but the notion that he just decided one day "I need to get married because I have to produce some sons so I'll ask Camilla to find me a suitable womb" suggests a degree of heartlessness in him and complicity in Camilla that I'm surprised you find so praiseworthy.

"Used to be" is a different thing from "is." We're not talking about ancient history where "womb" and "wife" are interchangeable terms. Nowadays, to refer to a wife as a womb is to say that she has no value except as the producer of children. I think, if I remember the Princess Michael interview correctly, that this is what she was implying. She's perfectly entitled to her opinion, of course, but since it's highly unlikely that Charles or Camilla ever told her anything of the sort, she's basing that opinion either second hand on something Diana told her or just on overall impressions of members of a family that haven't treated her with a lot of respect over the years.
  #420  
Old 05-17-2006, 11:52 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate Julie
Thank you for this reply. I somehow just don't think it is fair, that one has to like the duchess and former mistress! I have never critized her looks, or her hats, I simply do not like the character of the person!
One doesn't have to like her. One simply has to be polite and give sensible reasons for disliking her. Frothing-at-the-mouth posts dripping with outright hatred reflect a lot worse on the poster than on the subject of the post, especially when we're all talking about people we don't actually know.
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