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  #121  
Old 06-16-2008, 07:18 PM
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I have always gotten the impression from biographies, that Charles was somewhat smitten with Camilla because she was not impressed with his title. Camilla may have seen Charles solely as a friend and some one to make Andrew Parker-Bowles jealous. She was very focused on getting Parker-Bowles down the aisle. Also as the years went by, Charles came to see Camilla as "the one who got away" - but at the time, he was being pressured to consider other women as possible bride and to sow his wild oats. For Camilla, I think she finally realized that Andrew was a serial cheater. As some point they got together, but the extent of their relationship prior to Charles marriage will never be completely known. (As his diaries will not be published in our lifetime) And as for when their relationship resumed, we have only Diana's perspective.
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  #122  
Old 06-16-2008, 11:03 PM
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We also have what Charles told Dimbleby - that he didn't go back to Camilla until his marriage had irretrievably broken down, although I don't remember if any actual dates were mentioned.
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  #123  
Old 06-17-2008, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
We also have what Charles told Dimbleby - that he didn't go back to Camilla until his marriage had irretrievably broken down, although I don't remember if any actual dates were mentioned.
I cannot recall any fixed dates as well, only dec. 18th 1989 comes to mind when the "Camillagate"-phonecall was recorded. As Squidygate was around the same time and considering both talks I think that this hints at Charles having been honest when he said that his marriage had broken down before he started his affair with Camilla.
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  #124  
Old 06-17-2008, 04:19 AM
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Mostly it was boy met girl, boy went to sow his "wild oats, girl married another. Boy and girl got together after a period of time passed and continued their relationship. Boy was "forced" to marry proper girl. He did thus. Boy expected to continue doing whatever he pleased. Boy was a Prince. Wife created havoc when finding boy had another girl. Life became untenable. Boy and wife divorced. Wife is killed. Boy decided if he was a prince he could do anything and demanded to marry girl. It didn't much matter as they had two "pure" heirs. And, boy and girl lived happily ever after.
I would put it a bit differently: Boy and wife divorce. Boy introduces girl as his new partner. Wife is killed. Girl takes backseat again (because of the public opinion or because of the mourning sons? I have my own opinion about that...). Boy decides that even though he is a prince he has a right to love and be open about it. Boy marries girl and lives happily ever after with her.
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  #125  
Old 06-17-2008, 04:22 AM
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MARRIAGES, DIVORCES, SCANDALS . . . THE ROCKY ROAD TO THE AISLE | Sunday Herald, The | Find Articles at BNET.com

Fractured Fairy Tale - TIME

Timeline: Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles — Infoplease.com
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  #126  
Old 06-17-2008, 04:35 AM
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Two things where I wonder how they got this information from and if it is reliable?

"1986 In this year, at the latest, Charles renews his affair with Camilla. Royal couple are soon leading separate private lives."

And:

1999 Camilla meets Prince William and Prince Harry for the first time.

I would have thought with the Parker Bowles being long-term friends of prince Charles that Camilla has known the little princes from the beginning. Especially as Camilla seem to have a knack with kids? It has been said that Andrew and Camilla were invited often to Highgrove when Charles and Diana were there at the weekends. Where were William and Harry back then? Somehow I don't see either Diana or Camilla as persons who accept that children stay in the nursery when the parents entertain guests and I don't see Charles as the kind of father who does not take his kids on a stroll around the garden with his guests.
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  #127  
Old 06-17-2008, 04:39 AM
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Thank you very much Skydragon for finding these timelines. Here it says:

"1986 According to Charles's official biographer, Jonathan Dimbleby, Charles begins an affair with Camilla."

My question: Where does Dimbleby says that?
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  #128  
Old 06-17-2008, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Thank you very much Skydragon for finding these timelines. Here it says:

"1986 According to Charles's official biographer, Jonathan Dimbleby, Charles begins an affair with Camilla."

My question: Where does Dimbleby says that?
I'll get shot if I challenge it. IMO, this was the date agreed upon to protect Diana from questions over the paternity of her son Harry.


Prince Charles's aides plotted against Diana

Prince Charles biography
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  #129  
Old 06-17-2008, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
I would put it a bit differently: Boy and wife divorce. Boy introduces girl as his new partner. Wife is killed. Girl takes backseat again (because of the public opinion or because of the mourning sons? I have my own opinion about that...). Boy decides that even though he is a prince he has a right to love and be open about it. Boy marries girl and lives happily ever after with her.
IMO, your 'version' is more accurate.
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  #130  
Old 06-17-2008, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
From Dimbleby (page 394 ff. from the Little, Brown & Company hardcover edition):

As the Prince wrote in November 1986:
Frequently I feel nowadays that I'm in a kind of cage, pacing up and down it and longing to be free.... I fear I'm going to need a bit of help now and then for which I feel rather ashamed. All I want to do is help other people..."

He began to turn once again to his friends, bringing back into his life those whom he had expelled at his wife's behest..." (...)

"Among those to whom he turned was Camilla Parker Bowles, with whom he began to re-establish the intimacy of their former friendship. Following his engement to the Princess in february 1981, the Prince had virtually no contact with Camilla Parker Bowles for over five years. Apart from one occassion before the wedding, when he gave her the "farewell" bracelet, her saw her only fleetingly at occasional social gatherings. (...)

Until he reached the point of desperation, when, as he would later confine himself to saying in public, his marriage had "irretrievably broken down", he had been loyal to his wife and faithful to his marriage vows. Now, in the search of support, he once again began to talk to her on the telephone and they started to see each other at Highgrove; she usually came with either her husband or some of the prince's other close friends, and the opportunities to be alone with each other for any length of time were infrequent. That they loved each other was not in any doubt: in Camilla Parker Bowles the prince found the warmth, the understanding and the steadiness for which he had always longed and had never been able to find with any other person.

Their relationship- about which the tabloids soon began to speculate with such incontinence - was later to be portrayed merely as a tawdry affair: for the Prince, however, it was a vital source of strength to a man who had been saddened beyond words by a failure for which he invariably blamed himself. "I never thought it would end up like this", he wrote. "how could I have got it all so wrong?"

End of quote from Dimbleby.

For me this is all I need to know about their love "affair".

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  #131  
Old 06-17-2008, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Two things where I wonder how they got this information from and if it is reliable?

"1986 In this year, at the latest, Charles renews his affair with Camilla. Royal couple are soon leading separate private lives."

And:

1999 Camilla meets Prince William and Prince Harry for the first time.

I would have thought with the Parker Bowles being long-term friends of prince Charles that Camilla has known the little princes from the beginning. Especially as Camilla seem to have a knack with kids? It has been said that Andrew and Camilla were invited often to Highgrove when Charles and Diana were there at the weekends. Where were William and Harry back then? Somehow I don't see either Diana or Camilla as persons who accept that children stay in the nursery when the parents entertain guests and I don't see Charles as the kind of father who does not take his kids on a stroll around the garden with his guests.
I had a look at the Dimbleby book, and it doesn't specifically say that Charles went back to Camilla in 1986; however, it does trace things chronologically, and the comment about going back to Camilla was made during the 1986 part of the timeline. I'm not sure how much this date also depends on Diana telling Martin Bashir about Charles going back to his lady, but 1986 does seem to fit the bill.

As for the other, I also thought it was a bit strange that Camilla hadn't met Charles's sons before, but there was a fair bit of publicity attached to her alleged first meeting with William some years after Diana's death. I don't know how they were defining "meeting" or how much they were trying to avoid the implication that Charles had been previously meeting his lover in the presence of his young children (something that made Fergie very unpopular) or what the story was, but I do remember reports of this meeting.
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  #132  
Old 06-17-2008, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I'll get shot if I challenge it. IMO, this was the date agreed upon to protect Diana from questions over the paternity of her son Harry.


Prince Charles's aides plotted against Diana

Prince Charles biography
No you won't. There's certainly some ambiguity involved, although I think 1986 would be a reasonable conclusion to draw from the information provided.
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  #133  
Old 06-19-2008, 07:43 PM
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I have read the comments with interest but I am confused about this thread. Agatha seemed to want to focus on the nature of the original "love story"-Charles and Camilla/ Fred and Gladys pre Prince Charles wedding. However, it seems like so many other discussions, we keep going back to the eternal triangle-which only gets people upset.

This is all IMO based on my reading of Dimblebly, Wilson, Bradford (sp) and Brown, and many articles.
1. I think they were in love with each other in the 70's and maybe a little earlier.
2. I think that Camilla was told directly and indirectly (without Charles knowledge) that there was no chance for anything long term.
3. I think she settled with APB for a variety of reasons and like most of us who settle was quickly disappointed--which leads to
4. A rekindled deep relationship with Charles (sexual or not) that did not end even when he married.
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  #134  
Old 06-20-2008, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I had a look at the Dimbleby book, and it doesn't specifically say that Charles went back to Camilla in 1986; however, it does trace things chronologically, and the comment about going back to Camilla was made during the 1986 part of the timeline. I'm not sure how much this date also depends on Diana telling Martin Bashir about Charles going back to his lady, but 1986 does seem to fit the bill.

As for the other, I also thought it was a bit strange that Camilla hadn't met Charles's sons before, but there was a fair bit of publicity attached to her alleged first meeting with William some years after Diana's death. I don't know how they were defining "meeting" or how much they were trying to avoid the implication that Charles had been previously meeting his lover in the presence of his young children (something that made Fergie very unpopular) or what the story was, but I do remember reports of this meeting.
Yes the late 1986/early 1987 dating for the rekindling of the Charles/Camilla relationship was confirmed by Wendy Berry, the Highgrove housekeeper (Autumn 1985-1993) who stated in her memoirs (published outside UK) that the Prince started to visit Camilla on Sunday evenings from Highgrove sometime between Xmas 1986 and early 1987. She also stated that Camilla never visited Highgrove when the boys were there as they were strictly kept under Diana's control. Indeed she also stated that from about 1988/89 onwards Diana denied Charles the enjoyment of reading bed-time stories to his sons by dint of screaming hysterically anytime he went near the boys nursery, which was off Diana's bedroom. Charles had to say goodnight over the internal tannoy system instead.
As Dimbleby pointed out it was this denial of access to his own sons that led Charles to divorce Diana (not his relationship with Camilla) because Charles's then PRivate Secretary (Richard Aylard, himself a divorced man) pointed out that as a divorced man you have legally enforceable rights of access to your children, as a miserably married man to a hysterical woman you don't.
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  #135  
Old 06-22-2008, 06:18 AM
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. . . . . it was this denial of access to his own sons that led Charles to divorce Diana (not his relationship with Camilla) because Charles's then PRivate Secretary (Richard Aylard, himself a divorced man) pointed out that as a divorced man you have legally enforceable rights of access to your children, as a miserably married man to a hysterical woman you don't.
Wow, that is a harsh and bitter inditement of the state of the "marriage", and yet somehow it rings true.

If the marriage was to end in divorce I think that that would do it far sooner than Charles relationship with Camilla. She loved him and wanted nothing to come between him and his children and seemed content with the status quo.
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  #136  
Old 06-22-2008, 06:34 AM
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I agree with you MARG. Still, it's always a nightmare to keep your position unbiased with your children when your couple is overwhelmed with hatred as it seems to be between Charles and Diana.
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  #137  
Old 06-22-2008, 09:24 AM
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Some people are able to keep overt displays of anger stemming from their marriage breakup away from their children. It appears Charles endeavoured to keep away from the nastiness of his marriage when he was dealing with his children. I suspect that in Denmark, the breakup between Joachim and Alexandra was far more traumatic and filled with anger against the other than anyone imagined at times but their main focus seemed to always make sure their children weren't impacted by it. I know other examples from my personal experience.
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  #138  
Old 06-22-2008, 11:01 AM
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Yes, I also have some examples in my life. Although, the damaged caused to children can be terrible whether or not the parents are famous, I believe it's even more difficult to spare your kids when you're in the limelight.
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  #139  
Old 06-22-2008, 12:25 PM
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IMO, Charles and Diana were advised to divorce after the terrible Panorama interview in Dec 1995, it was reported that HM had written to them both advising them to seek a divorce at the earliest opportunity. They had been officially separated since 1992. I do find it hard to believe that the nursery or boys bedroom would have been off Diana's bedroom, that would have made it very difficult for the nanny to tend them.
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Old 06-22-2008, 12:57 PM
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That's also my belief, Skydragon. But I have no doubt that some of Diana or Charles's close friends had advised her/him to divorce. In such a position, both couldn't do much, even if they really wanted to divorce (whoch was not Diana's case). Friends are usually the ones to have a more objective view on things happening. As good friends, they were probably there during the toughest times and I'm sure divorce was for most of them the right solution to appease the two person in the couple.
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