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  #81  
Old 06-12-2008, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
I know this the same way YOU know all the info that you post, Skydragon. Like the comment that "all young people behave" like Charles and Camilla did at the Cirencester Ball. How would you know that...is that just IYO?
Probably because I am a similar age and attended many of these balls. My comments are based, as I originally said, on experience.

I couldn't presume to know what two other women thought, knew or how experienced in the ways of anything they were.
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  #82  
Old 06-12-2008, 02:54 PM
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No one can know what anyone thinks or feels unless they tell them. It seems, though, anything, with the least criticism towards C or C, in some eyes, is always a fabrication or unknown. Bradord's book was researched by a very fine biographer, she doesn't commonly print things she thinks are idle gossip. And who knows if she questioned the very people, wther they would tell the truth?
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  #83  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
No one can know what anyone thinks or feels unless they tell them. It seems, though, anything, with the least criticism towards C or C, in some eyes, is always a fabrication or unknown. Bradord's book was researched by a very fine biographer, she doesn't commonly print things she thinks are idle gossip. And who knows if she questioned the very people, wther they would tell the truth?
I have often questioned some of the 2 person conversations between Diana and ? that are printed as fact. Unless the people concerned decide to tell 'their' version, we cannot possibly know whether it is true or not.

From other posts, Bradford, at least in part based her book on another authors work. She is probably a fine author but just because she married into the peerage, would not mean that everyone suddenly accepts her as one of their own and spills the beans. The main players and the majority of their closest friends have never, as far as we know and IMO, spoken to anyone. One exception seems to have been a displaced bitter ex girlfriend.

Nobody minds fair criticism, but when it is based on a vague 'I read' without a link, or the paragraph/sentence concerned, then that criticism is open to criticism.
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  #84  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
No one can know what anyone thinks or feels unless they tell them. It seems, though, anything, with the least criticism towards C or C, in some eyes, is always a fabrication or unknown. Bradord's book was researched by a very fine biographer, she doesn't commonly print things she thinks are idle gossip. And who knows if she questioned the very people, wther they would tell the truth?

Indeed. Bradford also states in her book that the late Diana was an habitual liar and a world class manipulator, but no one ever seems to challenge negative information said or written about the late Princess.

In the end all any author has to go on are interviews with people he or she considers reputable, as well as previously published work. In the notes it appears that the people who contributed to this book were close to one or all of the three principals and spoke only on condition of anonymity for obvious reasons.
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  #85  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
Indeed. Bradford also states in her book that the late Diana was an habitual liar and a world class manipulator, but no one ever seems to challenge negative information said or written about the late Princess.
Perhaps because IPO's it was true? Many people have questioned negative posts about diana, you only have to read through some of those threads to find that.
Quote:
In the end all any author has to go on are interviews with people he or she considers reputable, as well as previously published work. In the notes it appears that the people who contribute to this book who were close to either of the three principals spoke only on condition of anonymity for obvious reasons.
Or they were on the edge of the set and asked for anonymity because it would not be the truth, just what they wanted people to believe was the truth.
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  #86  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio View Post
Does anyone know why Mountbatten supposedly disapproved of Camilla? This idea never quite made sense to me. Was Camilla just not high ranking enough for Mountbatten's views of a wife for Charles? Or was it simply because Mountbatten wanted to steer Charles toward Amanda Knatchbull? Is the "mistress material" quote about Camilla true? Did Mountbatten really say that?
Does someone know the original source for the quote? I mean, obviously Mountbatten is the original source, but I mean, the first place where this quote was transcribed? The first person to claim he said that??
According to the Dimbleby book (p. 205), in a letter to Charles, which is now in the Mountbatten Archive, he said, "I believe, in a case like yours, a man should sow his wild oats and have as many affairs as he can before settling down. But for a wife he should choose a suitable and sweet-charactered girl before she meets anyone else she might fall for."

Given that he was trying to promote his granddaughter Amanda as the suitable and sweet-charactered girl in question, it's possible that he would have considered any other suitable and sweet-charactered girl to be highly unsuitable. But Camilla didn't fit the bill of "before she meets anyone else she might fall for," by the sound of things.
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  #87  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Perhaps because IPO's it was true? Many people have questioned negative posts about diana, you only have to read through some of those threads to find that.Or they were on the edge of the set and asked for anonymity because it would not be the truth, just what they wanted people to believe was the truth.

So...the many anonymous sources who said that Diana behaved unreasonably
and childishly and carried on nuisance calls to Oliver Hoare can't be believed because they had an axe to grind?

The "anonymous source" who stated that Charles and Camilla stayed away from one another for the first two years of the Royal marriage were making it up out of an attempt to make C&C seem noble and self-sacrificing?

Or are you saying that only the people who requested to be anonymous but did not say flattering things about C and C were the ones making things up and were "on the edge of the set"...which is it?
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  #88  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rebafan81 View Post
This is probably not the right thread for this but I have to ask, please move if needed, why did the QM hate the Duke of Windsor so much? If he had not abdicated, she would always just be the Duchess of York instead of Queen and her children would just be like Princess Margret's children, cousins of the ruling monarch. I just wondered because without his abdication, she would probably just be a footnote in history.
It was Wallis she hated, not David. Even though David was the one who was besotted, Wallis seemed to be the focus of a disproportionate amount of the blame. You should be able to find some more information in this thread:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...sor-10245.html
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  #89  
Old 06-12-2008, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
So...the many anonymous sources who said that Diana behaved unreasonably
and childishly and carried on nuisance calls to Oliver Hoare can't be believed because they had an axe to grind?

The "anonymous source" who stated that Charles and Camilla stayed away from one another for the first two years of the Royal marriage were making it up out of an attempt to make C&C seem noble and self-sacrificing?

Or are you saying that only the people who requested to be anonymous but did not say flattering things about C and C were the ones making things up and were "on the edge of the set"...which is it?
Let's be perfectly honest.... you would argue with anything I might write. Regarding Diana and Oliver Hoare, I believe Hoare and the police confirmed that she had in fact stalked him. As the inquest revealed, many of her 'friends' were able to confirm a great many of the allegations. This however is not a thread about the dead ex wife!

In many cases those that wish to remain anonymous have their motives open to question, I can't recall an anonymous source quoted as saying C & C did not get back together until '86 but then I don't recall any of their friends speaking out of turn.

End of reply
-----------------
IME, authors and the media are quite happy to misquote, either directly or by use of punctuation. If challenged their reply is usually, you will have to speak to the author (almost impossible) or obtain an injunction (very costly), the papers tend to say 'sue me' and if any of them print a retraction, it is so small and insignificant, nobody can read it. If the author is approached their reply is normally 'Oh, I misunderstood', so please don't tell me that reputable authors don't misrepresent anything they have been told or heard as gossip!
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  #90  
Old 06-12-2008, 04:00 PM
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Would you two please turn down the heat? It's possible to address what other people say without having to get personal about it.

Thank you.
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  #91  
Old 06-12-2008, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Would you two please turn down the heat? It's possible to address what other people say without having to get personal about it.

Thank you.

Elspeth, I am sorry. I don't believe I am the one who has gotten personal here. I am only trying to figure out the rules...when is a quote or source a lie, when can we believe it, etc.

I am not a fan of C&C but I am also not...uninformed enough to accept that there was only one villain in this very sordid and sad debacle.
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  #92  
Old 06-12-2008, 05:12 PM
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Thank you Elspeth for your answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
It was Wallis she hated, not David. Even though David was the one who was besotted, Wallis seemed to be the focus of a disproportionate amount of the blame. You should be able to find some more information in this thread:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...sor-10245.html
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  #93  
Old 06-12-2008, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Would you two please turn down the heat? It's possible to address what other people say without having to get personal about it.

Thank you.
My apologies Elspeth, I for one accept that I am 50% to blame.
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  #94  
Old 06-13-2008, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
According to the Dimbleby book (p. 205), in a letter to Charles, which is now in the Mountbatten Archive, he said, "I believe, in a case like yours, a man should sow his wild oats and have as many affairs as he can before settling down. But for a wife he should choose a suitable and sweet-charactered girl before she meets anyone else she might fall for."

Given that he was trying to promote his granddaughter Amanda as the suitable and sweet-charactered girl in question, it's possible that he would have considered any other suitable and sweet-charactered girl to be highly unsuitable. But Camilla didn't fit the bill of "before she meets anyone else she might fall for," by the sound of things.
Yes, very true. Thank you for reminding me of this letter. It does put context into it. Yes, indeed, Camilla was a very jolly and popular young person by all accounts, and probably her infatuation with APB, even in the early part of the first half of the 70s, was widely understood in the polo crowds in which they moved. That was a very clever, concise answer to my many questions.
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  #95  
Old 06-13-2008, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
It's very easy to for those of us who were not the principals to sit back and say "oh I would have done this or that" if I had been her.
Good point. Nay, a very important point. I know sometimes I am quick to judge Diana because I am so baffled by her irrationality. Yet I am now appropriately humbled. I will also add that I would not have traded places with her for all the world, and oh my, if I had been in her shoes (though the shoes themselves must have been nice to wear sometimes) I am likely to have carried out things much worse. I always say I would be the worst royal ever.
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  #96  
Old 06-13-2008, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliforniaDreamin View Post
.....I am only trying to figure out the rules...when is a quote or source a lie, when can we believe it, etc.

I am not a fan of C&C but I am also not...uninformed enough to accept that there was only one villain in this very sordid and sad debacle.
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, some of us prefer to use personal knowledge, experience and judgment rather than rely on the views of someone trying to sell a book.

As already discussed, the reason I (and I can only speak for myself) ask for the full quote, as written or the source is because 9 times out of 10, when you read the article for yourself, you find that it is based on unnamed sources, rumour and gossip or has been misinterpreted by the other person. Repeat rumour and gossip enough and people forget that it has no basis in fact.

I don't believe there were any villains in this sad tale and I don't believe myself to be uninformed, but as I have said I don't have to rely solely on what I have read in a few books.
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  #97  
Old 06-13-2008, 06:13 AM
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Royal wedding rules?

Why was Charles not allowed to marry Camilla before Diana? What was the impediment?
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  #98  
Old 06-13-2008, 06:24 AM
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Smile

Because Camilla Shand at that time was married with Andrew Parker Bowles.
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  #99  
Old 06-13-2008, 12:28 PM
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Since there seems to be some confusion about the question of quoting sources, the British moderators are preparing some guidelines which will eventually show up as a sticky in the British forum.

For the moment, the short version is as follows.

1. While it's acceptable to say "I read somewhere that....," you shouldn't be surprised or offended if other posters don't take what you say at face value. With the best will in the world, people do misunderstand or misremember, and some sources are more reliable than others.

2. If you're basing an opinion or statement on something you read somewhere, and someone asks for the exact quote, you should try to provide it or say that you're unable to (in which case someone else might be able to help out). I know people read things in library books or in magazines that they don't keep, but if it's possible to provide the name of the book and preferably the page number(s), along with the exact quote of the relevant information, that does at least give the conversation a factual basis. Please don't feel that your honesty is being questioned if someone asks for details about your statement that "I read this somewhere." We're just trying to get hold of the facts of the matter as a basis for the discussion.

3. For the purposes of the discussions in these threads, verifiable published information in reputable sources is more valuable than claims of insider knowledge, either by newspaper reporters ("a close friend of Prince X told me...") or by posters ("I can't tell you how I know, but they aren't telling the truth in that book").

If anyone has questions or comments about this policy on quoting sources, which seems to be giving a few of our posters serious heartburn, please PM me or Warren. That'll be helpful in our attempts to prepare the sticky we're working on. Please don't respond here, because I don't want this digression to derail the thread.

So - back to our regularly scheduled discussion...
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  #100  
Old 06-13-2008, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
...Given that he was trying to promote his granddaughter Amanda as the suitable and sweet-charactered girl in question, it's possible that he would have considered any other suitable and sweet-charactered girl to be highly unsuitable...
i've read about mountbatten pushing for a marriage between his granddaughter and charles a number of times over the years and was always under the impression that mountbatten wouldn't have considered any other sweet-charactered girl suitable...he wanted it to be her. perhaps after he realized it wasn't going to happen THEN he considered other girls suitable.
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