Charles and Camilla - The Early Years (1970s)

[Tyger]

Shortly after the engagement or wedding she was asked 'what is it like having afternoon tea with the Queen' and she replied - 'nothing unusual I have been doing it all my life' so she did know the system and the expectations about the royal family. She had played with Andrew and Edward as children.

So it has been - a bit of a merry dance - hard to see the image through the flickering sunlight.....

 

[sthreats]

Just because Diana played with Edward or had tea with the Queen does. Not mean that she really knew what she was in for. She was not emotionally mature. Also she and Charles did not know each other.
They both tried to be good parents.

That said what does this have to do with CC love story early or late. I don't think we need to run down Diana to justify CC. They just love each other

 

[Zonk]

Again, this thread is NOT about Diana.

In regards to the early days of Charles and Camilla, this thread will be restricted to the time period of 1970 until 1973, when Camilla marries Andrew Parker Bowles.

Future off topic posts will be deleted without notice.

 

[EmpressRouge]

With the recent excitement over the royal wedding, many have comparisons have been made of Catherine to the late Diana. As I think more about it, William and Catherine, as a couple, share much more in common with Charles and Camilla. Both Catherine and Camilla are slightly older than their princes and started dating them in their early 20s. Both Charles and William would delay proposing to pursue military careers leading to very different consequences.

It seems that William and Catherine were allowed to have the kind of courtship - nearly 9 years of dating and even living together at times - that probably would have suited Charles and Camilla but were denied because royal expectations at the time. Of course, Camilla also had her eyes on Andrew Parker Bowles who, at nearly a decade older than Charles, was probably quite a dashing army officer to have attracted both Camilla AND Princess Anne in the early 70s. There were reports that during William and Catherine's 2007 breakup, Charles was worried that his son would make the same mistake he had with Camilla: taking the advice to sow his wild oats while young and ending up losing his first love, who turned out to be the love of his life. Of course had Charles not married Diana, William wouldn't have been born, but reflecting on the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge's recent marriage, one wonders what a different scenario everything would have been had Charles had been allowed to date on his own terms like William has.

 

[Mirabel]

There were reports that during William and Catherine's 2007 breakup, Charles was worried that his son would make the same mistake he had with Camilla: taking the advice to sow his wild oats while young and ending up losing his first love, who turned out to be the love of his life.

But was Camilla the love of his life?
Charles had other romances, even with Camilla in the picture: Kanga Tryon, Janet Jenkins,et al.

I think Camilla has always been very important to him, but she was never his exclusive lover.
And now? Well, Charles is in his sixties, and probably companionship is more important than variety. He and Camilla seem comfortable together, and content; I think he is happier than he has ever been.

But calling Camilla the love of his life seems a bit over-the-top.

 

[EmpressRouge]

But was Camilla the love of his life?
Charles had other romances, even with Camilla in the picture: Kanga Tryon, Janet Jenkins,et al.

I think Camilla has always been very important to him, but she was never his exclusive lover.
And now? Well, Charles is in his sixties, and probably companionship is more important than variety. He and Camilla seem comfortable together, and content; I think he is happier than he has ever been.

But calling Camilla the love of his life seems a bit over-the-top.

Yes, Charles definitely had other girlfriends, before, during and after he dated Camilla, but Camilla was the one he always went back to and they resumed their affair in the late 70s. Anna Wallace dumped him when he ignored her at a ball and danced the entire night with Mrs Parker Bowles. It has also been alleged that Charles that asked Camilla to leave Andrew and marry him. So, yes, Charles did have other loves, but Camilla was the one he never stopped loving.

 

[MARG]

I quite agreed. I don't think that Camilla was the "Love of his Life". I think she was one of his best friends and whilst he was in an unhappy marriage she and Andrew had a marriage that worked for them.

Basically separate lives but when Charles marriage broke down I guess he, like thousands of others, turned to his friends for comfort and companionship. Camilla was one of those in the small circle of close friends that Charles has maintained over the years.

Somewhere along the line I think that friendship turned inevitably to love.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I am pretty sure C*C's relationship turned to love long before Charles marriage broke down. Camilla has been floating around him even when he was dating other women and while she was married. So it wasn't just something that reached its climax in the 80s.

 

[Queen Camilla]

C & C love

(Version 1)
Keep in mind that Camilla was born in 1947. She was raised to be a housewife and mother. Andrew cheated on Camilla before during and after* their marriage. I believe Camilla lost her virginity to Andrew and being old fashion, she chose to marry the man she lost her virginity to even though he was unfaithful to her. Don't know if she gave in before or after the marriage. Or if Andrew proposed to her because she was the only one who wouldn't sleep with him without a ring. (I'm going for the wedding night virgin who didn't cheat on Andrew until 1989 even though he was a dog and she may have flirted with others she was still true to Andrew for over 20 years.)

1. In 1966 Camilla met and fell in love with Andrew. Andrew cheated on her with several women and she looked the other way. That is until Andrew cheated on her with Princess Anne in 1970.
2. Summer of 1971 Camilla decided to play payback and teach him and Anne a lesson; she goes after Charles.
3. Both Charles and Camilla knew it was suppose to be a fling. She to payback Andrew. Charles to casually date. Charles was aware his parents and his great uncle Mountbatten had already chosen his wife (Amanda) for him and being the dutiful and respectful child he went along with the plan. (In addition to Camilla he was dating 3 other women.)
4. Charles and Camilla instantly connected and became very good friends, while dating for a little over a year they fell in love.
5. Charles life had already been planned for him. In the fall of 1972 he leaves for Naval officers training. Although, he writes to her and she replies to his letters. He does not tell her to wait for him, nor are his letter romantic. He leaves her hanging.
6. February 1973, just before he take command of his 1st ship he hears Camilla got engaged. He is stunned.
7. July 4, 1973 Camilla and Andrew marry. (Anne & Queen Mum have front row seats. Ouch!)
8. November 14, 1973 Anne marries Mark Phillips. (Charles 25th Birthday)
9. In early 1974 Charles resumes writing to Camilla. Also starts to drop by the Parker Bowles house (some say invited some say he would just drop in no matter what the PB's were doing.)
10. December 18, 1974 Camilla gives birth to 1st child, Tom
11. January 1, 1978 Camilla gives birth to 2nd child, Laura.
12. Camilla is a single mother throughout their marriage as Andrew is stationed overseas or is in London Monday-Friday. She is a full-time mother with no nannies, servants or staff.
13. August 1979 Mountbatten killed.
14. After Mountbatten's death Charles in despair and in desperation (not love) proposes to Camilla. Camilla turns him down but tells him, she will always be there for him.
15. Charles proposes to Amanda even though he is dating Anna Wallace.
16. Amanda turns him down. (He proposed too soon after her grandfather, grandmother and brother were killed by a terrorist attack that also left her father, mother and another brother severely injured.
17. Anna Wallace breaks up with him because he proposed to Amanda while dating her.
18. He see Diana again. (Charles has know Diana her whole life.) She resembles Anna. Still in love with Anna he tells friends he met the woman he is going to marry.
19. Charles and Diana date a few time before getting engaged. They do not know each other. Both have unrealistic ideas of what the other person should be. Trouble begans very soon after the engagement is announced and both want to end it but cannot as it has already been announced. Diana thought the engagement/marriage to Charles would be the happy ever after with excitement, fun, parties, jewelry, etc instead the day after the engagement she is moved from her apartment and her friends to Clarence House and then to BP where she is giving books and instructions on how to be a Princess and told what to do and what not to do. She feels like a prisoner. In solitary confinement. It was suggested since she was marrying the POW she should learn Welsh. Diana not much for school refused. She started having temper tantrums. RF was taken back to have a Spencer with all her family connections defy them. She thought they were trying to change her and were criticizing her. They thought she was rude. Diana although nearly 20 was very immature for her age. Charles was 32 was very old for his age.
20. July 29, 1981 Charles marries Diana. The public fairy tale.. the private hell.
21. June 21, 1982 William born.
22. September 15, 1984 Harry born
23. 1986 both Charles and Diana agree marriage is over.
24. 1986 Camilla and Andrew move to a new house. Camilla's grandmother dies August 1986.
25. 1986 Patti, Charles' friend, encourages Camilla to get in touch with Charles to cheer him up. Camilla starts writing to Charles. (They had been out of touch, per Diana's request.
26. July 17, 1987 Camilla turns 40.
27. Camilla re-examines her life. The trigger could be one or more events. It may have lasted several years. Her grandmother's death, the new home, her 40th birthday, Laura going off to boarding school and her becoming an empty nester. Andrew was still away M-F and now the kids are also away so she was no longer needed as a wife or mother for most the time. Her mother may also have become sick around this time. Andrew may have found another woman who he wanted as more than just a lover.
28. Sometime between 1987 to 1989, after examining her life she sheds her old fashion values and decides she has had enough of Andrew's cheating. Her marriage was over. Her contact with Charles goes from letter writing to phone calls to dates to intimate encounters...(Charles may have cheated on Diana in 1986 but I do not think it was with Camilla.)
29. James Hewitt who was with Diana from 1986 to 1989 (some say they continued as friends into the 1990's) stated that after several conversations with Diana he felt Charles fancied Camilla and WANTED to sleep with her.
30. In 1989 Diana conversation with Gibley is recorded, in it they mention Charlotte Soame/Hambro/Peel. The transcriber of the tape states it is well known (they all move in a small circle) that APB was cheating on Camilla with Charlotte and she wanted him to divorce Camilla and marry her but APB refused and so she married Peel in 1989.
31. July 1991 Diana turns 30, same month she agrees to to cooperate with Andrew Morton on a book to get her version of story.
32. 1992 Camilla and Andrew separate, Charles and Diana separate. Rosemary Pitman and John her husband divorce in 1991 they were married in 1961. He remarries in 1992 and starts 2nd family. APB and John are old friends. He is the godfather to their son Tom born 1969. (Charles is the godfather for APB and Camilla's son Tom.) note the pattern. Rosemary long time “companion” of APB (1993 earliest photo found as a couple, still looking for earlier one )
33. 1995 Camilla and Andrew divorce. Charles and Diana announce divorce.
34. 1996 February 7th Andrew and Rosemary marry.
35. 1996 Charles and Diana divorce.
36. 1996 Everyone is free. Andrew with 1st love/true. Charles with his (Camilla). Diana looking for love,
37. 2004 after Christmas but before New Year's Eve Charles proposes to Camilla. Camilla accepts.
38. April 9, 2005 Finally married after 34 years.
39. August 2011 Charles and Camilla celebrate 40th anniversary of their 1st date.

Just because Camilla kept quiet does not mean she is guilty.
Just because she had a reputation as lively does not mean she was not virgin.

Gay in 1966 meant something completely different than its common meaning today.

*After=The marriage is over and both are cheating but they are still married to each other. When only 1 is cheating the marriage is not over.

It is the wording that is used by the media the influences ones opinion.

Camilla is referred to as a mistress while Rosemary is referred to as the long time companion.

Charles cheated but Diana sought comfort in the arms of other men.

 

[Zonk]

Queen Camilla...thank you for your input.

Although for the topic of this thread, the subject ends at point #7.

 

[Zonk]

Please note that posts relating to when Charles and Camilla resumed their relationship has been deleted as off topic (as its post 1973). If you have questions regarding Queen Camilla's post, please contact her via PM.

If you have any questions, please contact any member of the British moderation team via PM.

Warren, wbenson & Zonk
British Forum Moderators

 

[Tyger]

Davina Sheffield was a stunning beauty! See here: http://tinyurl.com/79csf6d

I recall her name being spoken and the feeling of imminence regarding her being wife to Charles - but I have to agree with others - I have no memory of Camilla ever being talked about in the 1970's in any way, certainly not as 'unsuitable'. Friends and 'playmates' though Charles and Camilla may have been when young and single, it seems obvious that Camilla was focused elsewhere, 'in love' elsewhere - with Andrew Parker-Bowles - and Charles for sure had subsequent 'loves' to Camilla.

 

[Kataryn]

I guess we will only - if ever - find out the truth about the relationship of the Early Years when Charles and Camilla authorize a biography of their life and allow the author to write about these years.

 

[Patra]

Well! I will be first in line to read such a biography! IF That ever happens, one can only hope.......

 

[Iluvbertie]

Two chances while either of them are alive I suspect - none and Buckleys
(an Australian expression to mean 'no chance' at all.)

 

[Daria_S]

While it would be very interesting to read about their relationship in its' early stages, I too doubt that we'll ever get a biography with such details. Camila and Charles strike me as very private people, and won't want to share something so personal with the general public.

 

[BellaFay]

Davina Sheffield was a stunning beauty! See here: http://tinyurl.com/79csf6d

I recall her name being spoken and the feeling of imminence regarding her being wife to Charles - but I have to agree with others - I have no memory of Camilla ever being talked about in the 1970's in any way, certainly not as 'unsuitable'. Friends and 'playmates' though Charles and Camilla may have been when young and single, it seems obvious that Camilla was focused elsewhere, 'in love' elsewhere - with Andrew Parker-Bowles - and Charles for sure had subsequent 'loves' to Camilla.

If Camilla was 'in love' with APB all along it would seem to have been rather cruel of her to lead on Prince Charles for a full 6 months (between June 1972 and December 1972) and then not even bother to right to him to tell him that she had got engaged to APB in spring 1973. None of which seems like the behaviour of the Camilla we know now.

 

[Charlotte1]

If Camilla was 'in love' with APB all along it would seem to have been rather cruel of her to lead on Prince Charles for a full 6 months (between June 1972 and December 1972) and then not even bother to right to him to tell him that she had got engaged to APB in spring 1973. None of which seems like the behaviour of the Camilla we know now.

In the summer of 1972, when Charles and Camilla, started seeing each other. Andrew Parker Bowles had broken up with Camilla, he was very popular with the ladies and had many relationships, it seems he didn't want to be tied down. Camilla would have thought it was over between them, Charles then went to sea and by the end of the year, ABP restarted his relationship with Camilla. But he was notoriously unfaithful, going back as early as his engagement period.

 

[Tyger]

If Camilla was 'in love' with APB all along it would seem to have been rather cruel of her to lead on Prince Charles for a full 6 months (between June 1972 and December 1972) and then not even bother to write to him to tell him that she had got engaged to APB in spring 1973. None of which seems like the behaviour of the Camilla we know now.

But she did write to him the way I understand it - its why Charles wrote his uncle about Camilla's impending marriage.

In the summer of 1972, when Charles and Camilla, started seeing each other, Andrew Parker Bowles had broken up with Camilla. He was very popular with the ladies and had many relationships and it seems he didn't want to be tied down. Camilla would have thought it was over between them. Charles then went to sea and by the end of the year, ABP restarted his relationship with Camilla. But he was notoriously unfaithful, going back as early as his engagement period.

What was going on was far from 'true love' (between Charles and Camilla) imo just the usual between young people testing out all the possibilities. I'd suggest it's the same sort of thing going on with Prince Harry and his circle of friends, pairing up and un-pairing.

 

[BellaFay]

But she did write to him the way I understand it - its why Charles wrote his uncle about Camilla's impending marriage.



What was going on was far from 'true love' (between Charles and Camilla) imo just the usual between young people testing out all the possibilities. I'd suggest it's the same sort of thing going on with Prince Harry and his circle of friends, pairing up and un-pairing.

Tyger - can you please state which letter to Mountbatten about Camilla's impending marraige you are talking about? It is not mentioned in Dimbleby's biography. He mentions a letter to a confidential correspondent to whom he states that he feels he has no reason to return to England. As all letters between Charles and Mountbatten are identified in Dimbleby's footnotes this 'confidential correspondent' can't be Mountbatten and to judge by the genera comments in the rest of the letter it was obviously someone who knew Camilla and was probably IMO Lucia de Sta Cruz the mutual friend of Charles and Camilla who introiduced the couple to each other in the summer of 1972. If Charles was only trying out love why was he so distraught when he found out about Camilla's engagement?

 

[Tyger]

Tyger - can you please state which letter to Mountbatten about Camilla's impending marraige you are talking about? It is not mentioned in Dimbleby's biography. He mentions a letter to a confidential correspondent to whom he states that he feels he has no reason to return to England. As all letters between Charles and Mountbatten are identified in Dimbleby's footnotes this 'confidential correspondent' can't be Mountbatten and to judge by the genera comments in the rest of the letter it was obviously someone who knew Camilla and was probably IMO Lucia de Sta Cruz the mutual friend of Charles and Camilla who introiduced the couple to each other in the summer of 1972. If Charles was only trying out love why was he so distraught when he found out about Camilla's engagement?

I don't think one can 'try out love' - he may have been trying out lust, that I'll agree to, which for a man is more significant the first time (though I don't think we know if Camilla was his first - I doubt she was).

You got me there. You have the better info. I thought the letter was to his uncle. Perhaps not - as you say. Pure conjecture, but if it was to the mutual woman friend it might have been Charles' stealth way of trying to get the word to Camilla that he was still interested. Clearly it didn't work - Camilla married elsewhere.

I don't think he was 'so distraught' - what makes you think he was? With news of her marriage he knew he couldn't just take up with her as though the marriage never was - flying in the face of the claim that he did - so he was confronting the fact that he didn't have a girlfriend to come back to for some R&R. Makes sense - but not significant above all else. At least that's the way I see it.

I just don't accept the premise that it's been a life-long affair - and that it hung over Charles' first marriage - so I don't see the initial years with that overlay. I think they meshed at once. It's possible that Charles was more 'taken' with Camilla than she was with Charles. After all, if she was pining for Andrew Parker-Bowles, it wasn't a level playing field for Charles.

 

[Oliv]

in a way, it has been a lifelong relationship (obviously, with two breaks). I think Charles loved and NEEDED Camilla more than she needed him. he took everything more seriously than she did

 

[COUNTESS]

It has been a "lifelong" affair. He did understand that she wasn't "good enough". She moved on, briefly, because she knew her position. She is very savy. And he did follow his guidelines. He cheated himself and his former wife, because of his love for Camilla. She, only, became non-negotiable, when he was older and knew the cards he held and he had heirs from the "better" choice. On the other hand, they will be together for eternity, now.

 

[Tyger]

On the other hand, they will be together for eternity, now.

I won't try to debate your opinion - you clearly are convinced on how you see it. How you have this insight into Charles - outside of what Charles' first wife claimed - only you know.

However, on one fact I will disagree - its not for eternity (like the Mormons - in their marriage vows they declare 'for time and all eternity'). For most of us it's 'until death us do part'. The cards are re-shuffled in the afterlife. We are free - to go our way freely - with all our connections from life (or not) in a new way.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I have often wondered whether it was in fact Camilla who felt that she wasn't good enough for Charles with not having a title etc. She came from that bit lower down the social scale and may have felt that the heir to the throne was out of her reach as a husband, lover - yes, husband - no, so set her own sights lower and went with Andrew.

I suppose I am saying that Charles and Camilla were the generation between having to marry within a certain limited class - the aristocracy or other royalty - if you are the future monarch to being able to marry solely for love.

The Queen was lucky in that she found 'the love of her life' within the right class but Edward VIII wasn't so lucky and couldn't find the 'right one' within that narrow confines and suffered as a result. Earlier monarchs had arranged marriages that as often as not weren't love matches at all although some affection may have developed over time.

 

[COUNTESS]

You are correct about eternity, as I lost my first husband many years ago, when I was young and remarried and do have another wonderful life.

Actually, Charles and Edward VIII, had the same problem, Charles just came in at the right time.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Charles wasn't in the right time period in the 70s and 80s. He was still expected to marry within the aristocracy and a virgin or at least a girl with limited past experience. No one else had the same limitations.

Had he been able to marry solely for love, as William has been able to do, he woud have probably not married Diana at all and married someone far more suitable to be his wife and companion - not necessarily just for her own background but suited to him as a person e.g. Camilla.

I am not wanting, not will I participate in a 'CCD' triangle discussion but rather trying to show how had Charles been a generation further on he wouldn't have been pressured into marrying someone like Diana but would have been allowed to marry Camilla in the first place.

The most lasting legacy of his failed first marriage is that William has been allowed to marry solely for love, regardless of Kate's background. A generation ago William wouldn't have been allowed to marry Kate as she wasn't of the 'right background'.

Edward VIII had to give up the throne to marry a divorced woman (along with the government wanting to rid themselves of an unsatisfactory king) and times have moved on where Charles can be married to a divorcee without it threatening his position as the future King.

In the same way times have moved on and William was allowed to marry for love and for that reason alone.

 

[BellaFay]

Iluvbertie, I fully agree with your analysis of both Charles & William's position. Without Charles & Camilla's example and support during the period in 2007 when William briefly split with Kate, I don't think the marriage between William & Kate would have gone ahead.

 

[Tyger]

I have often wondered whether it was in fact Camilla who felt that she wasn't good enough for Charles with not having a title etc. She came from that bit lower down the social scale and may have felt that the heir to the throne was out of her reach as a husband, lover - yes, husband - no, so set her own sights lower and went with Andrew.

Then how do you explain his string of involvements with non-titled woman vetted as possible Queens - like Davina Sheffield? Who I think I focus on because it was the first moment I really thought he was going to marry - that she was it. Imagine if she had been the one? She seemed a modest sort - not flashy. Too bad it didn't work out.

Look at this picture - so sweet: Prince Charles and Davina Sheffield in a Carriage at Windsor: http://tinyurl.com/8xg6sjp

This is from a DailyMail article, 2004 - and honestly, I just can't believe the guy was fixated on Camilla early on. Or that Camilla would have seen herself as not up to snuff - look at the women he was dating after her - not everyone had a title, either.

It was with the failure of his first marriage, depressed and disillusioned, that he went seeking for something more.

A former aide says: 'Charles has always been attractive to women. Apart from the power thing, he dresses immaculately, he's in good shape and is charming and flirty.' He also has a strong libido [...]

Charles has always seemed to heed the famous 1974 note from his great-uncle, Earl Mountbatten, that said: 'I believe in a case like yours a man should sow his wild oats and have as many affairs as possible before settling down.'

Starting with Lucia Santa Cruz, the daughter of a former Chilean diplomat he met while a student at Cambridge and who is believed to have taken his virginity at 19 Charles has enjoyed flings with a stream of well-bred girls, including the Duke of Wellington's daughter Lady Jane Wellesley; Lord McGowan's daughter Davina Sheffield; landowner's daughter Anna Wallace and socialites Fiona Watson, Sabrina Guinness and model Jane Ward, who told a friend he was 'an experienced lover, tender and sweet.'

 

[Daria_S]

Then how do you explain his string of involvements with non-titled woman vetted as possible Queens - like Davina Sheffield? Who I think I focus on because it was the first moment I really thought he was going to marry - that she was it. Imagine if she had been the one? She seemed a modest sort - not flashy. Too bad it didn't work out.

Look at this picture - so sweet: Prince Charles and Davina Sheffield in a Carriage at Windsor: Prince Charles with Davina Sheffield - HU009008 - Rights Managed - Stock Photo - Corbis

This is from a DailyMail article, 2004 - and honestly, I just can't believe the guy was fixated on Camilla early on. Or that Camilla would have seen herself as not up to snuff - look at the women he was dating after her - not everyone had a title, either.

It was with the failure of his first marriage, depressed and disillusioned, that he went seeking for something more. If it wasn't Camilla who Charles sought out in 1986 - who was it? (That may be a thread-nap).

A former aide says: 'Charles has always been attractive to women. Apart from the power thing, he dresses immaculately, he's in good shape and is charming and flirty.' He also has a strong libido [...]

Charles has always seemed to heed the famous 1974 note from his great-uncle, Earl Mountbatten, that said: 'I believe in a case like yours a man should sow his wild oats and have as many affairs as possible before settling down.'

Starting with Lucia Santa Cruz, the daughter of a former Chilean diplomat he met while a student at Cambridge and who is believed to have taken his virginity at 19 Charles has enjoyed flings with a stream of well-bred girls, including the Duke of Wellington's daughter Lady Jane Wellesley; Lord McGowan's daughter Davina Sheffield; landowner's daughter Anna Wallace and socialites Fiona Watson, Sabrina Guinness and model Jane Ward, who told a friend he was 'an experienced lover, tender and sweet.'

Wow. This is definitely an eye-opener. I never imagined Charles as someone who was outgoing in his youth, but it's nice to know that he enjoyed his days at university and got a chance to experience life of a student with all the bells and whistles, if you will.