C&C love story - the early days

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by TheTruth

I see ... alone against the world. You should have expected this from me .

But TheTruth, only on this little matter, you know we would stand beside you, if you needed us.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by milla Ca

Maybe i´m too romantic, wearing my pink glasses..., but i think how they go through this all together is what real friends, lovers, soulmates always should do: walk all the stony ways of life together, wanting always the best for the other one, and stay in love together....
But it doesn´t work very often, i know, and therefore the C&C story is one of the great love storys of our time!

I don't think you are too romantic, I think you too can see that 'love' and relationships are not plain sailing for everyone and sometimes we have to do what is best for the person we love, with disregard for our own feelings.

[milla Ca]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

But TheTruth, only on this little matter, you know we would stand beside you, if you needed us.

I couldn´t agree more!

[Duchess]

i don't think people that have been in love and parted but remain friends is the same as the situation that charles and camilla were in. even after marrying and over a number of years they still shared a "romantic" love not the love of a friendship. when you remain friends with a former lover/fiance the love you had no longer exists but changes, the feelings are different.

[Skydragon]

Many people, myself included, share the same 'love' we felt, it depends on the reasons for the parting and everyone is different. Unless it is something you have experienced, it must be very hard to understand.

[agatha1939]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

You seem to be straying from your original question, into the realms of when, why and who had the first affair, when the marriage broke down, who was to blame etc, etc. I think there is a thread still running discussing Diana and her affairs. It appears from your posts, IMO, that you had already made your mind up about Charles and Camilla's love story, before asking your question.

No, I'm not, although it's true I am guilty of talking about Diana in this thread too. What I really wanted to ask, and maybe understand, is were C&C really in love when young and FORBIDDEN to stay together? And I got the impression - maybe wrongly - that you think that YES, they were in love when young and didn't stay together for other reasons. So, from that, I assumed that if they were in love young, and had no "motive" to stop loving each other (as a man&woman, I'm not talking about different kinds of love), they were in love when C&D got marrried. And *IMO* that made Charles marriage very difficult, no matter who he married to.

There is no reason to be defensive with me, I was very honest when I said I used to be 100% Diana before and now I was able to see things differently. I don't hate Camila at all, I will never say "I cannot stand her" like so many times was said here about Diana. It's just that "knowing" the truth about C&C love story makes a big difference in how things happend later, for EVERYBODY.

And yes, it's true, I do believe C&C stayed together way before Diana started her affairs. So what? How many times here was implied that Diana was more than crazy, absolutely mad, sleeping around, selfish, and so on? How many times did I come here to accuse you or anybody? I hardly post here because everybody seems so touchy about C&C, C&D, etc.

In the end, it's just my opinion and it doesn't change AT ALL the fact that C&C are way better suited to each other. It doesn't change the fact that Diana could and should have dealt with that in one million different and better ways. It doesn't change the fact they C&C could and should have dealt with that in one million different and better ways too. *IMO* only shows that the feelings between C&C were so strong that not even his marriage could change that. And *IMO* didn't change one bit.

So, I will refrain to make further posts about C&C (and God forbid C&D), no hard feelings from my part.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by agatha1939

No, I'm not, although it's true I am guilty of talking about Diana in this thread too. What I really wanted to ask, and maybe understand, is were C&C really in love when young and FORBIDDEN to stay together? And I got the impression - maybe wrongly - that you think that YES, they were in love when young and didn't stay together for other reasons. So, from that, I assumed that if they were in love young, and had no "motive" to stop loving each other (as a man&woman, I'm not talking about different kinds of love), they were in love when C&D got marrried. And *IMO* that made Charles marriage very difficult, no matter who he married to.

As you will have seen on the previous page, we have been asked to try to keep to the thread matter and from what you had written in the post concerned, IMO, you already had your idea. I don't think they were 'in love', I think there is a vast difference between loving someone and being 'in love'. Even without Camilla, I don't think his marriage to Diana stood a chance.

It's a pity if you don't post and if you are more interested in Diana, there are quite a few threads, where many of the points you are interested in are raised.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by agatha1939

No, I'm not, although it's true I am guilty of talking about Diana in this thread too. What I really wanted to ask, and maybe understand, is were C&C really in love when young and FORBIDDEN to stay together? And I got the impression - maybe wrongly - that you think that YES, they were in love when young and didn't stay together for other reasons. So, from that, I assumed that if they were in love young, and had no "motive" to stop loving each other (as a man&woman, I'm not talking about different kinds of love), they were in love when C&D got marrried. And *IMO* that made Charles marriage very difficult, no matter who he married to.

I think it's really hard to know exactly what happened from this long distance in time and with so many interpretations of what went on. It seems as though they met when they were rather young and he still had his years in the Navy to get through. I remember at the time that a woman with a "past" was considered (or was claimed by the press to be considered) unsuitable as a potential bride for Charles, and we were still in the days when his bride was going to pretty much have to be Lady someone or at the very least The Honourable someone. Then you had Charles's honourary grandfather and deeply trusted advisor Lord Mountbatten stirring the mix with his advice to Charles about playing the field and then settling down with a sweet young thing (aka Mountbatten's granddaughter Amanda Knatchbull), and then you also had Charles's beloved granny who didn't trust Mountbatten to put Charles's best interests ahead of his own ambition, and who had a very old-fashioned view of life. No doubt she was also of the "sweet young thing" persuasion but I'm pretty sure Mountbatten's granddaughter wouldn't have been the sweet young thing in question.

Charles seems to be a person who doesn't make decisions easily, and he knew that his wife would have to be more than just the person he wanted to live his life with but would have to fit the role of Princess of Wales and eventually Queen Consort. I'm fairly sure he also, back in his early 20s, wasn't about to disappoint Mountbatten and the Queen Mother (to say nothing of the Daily Mail) and insist on marrying someone he knew they'd disapprove of and who had no training or experience of his way of life. Maybe if he hadn't been in the Navy, if he'd had more of a backbone, if Mountbatten and Grannie weren't laying guilt trips on him, if it had been the 1990s instead of the 1970s - who knows what might have happened.

Equally, Camilla seemed, by all accounts to have set her cap at Andrew Parker Bowles even before Charles came along. She seems to be a pretty down-to-earth person, and probably realised that marriage with Charles would probably not be encouraged (and in those circles, they don't have to go so far as to forbid something - it's a lot more subtle than that) even assuming she was interested in getting sucked into the royal gilded cage, which she may well not have been. Perhaps (if the "how about it?" story of their first meeting is true) she fancied herself as Charles's mistress, but I have a feeling she's a more realistic person than to believe they could have been married back in the 1970s without causing the sort of waves that Charles probably wouldn't have had the courage to cause.

There is no reason to be defensive with me, I was very honest when I said I used to be 100% Diana before and now I was able to see things differently. I don't hate Camila at all, I will never say "I cannot stand her" like so many times was said here about Diana. It's just that "knowing" the truth about C&C love story makes a big difference in how things happend later, for EVERYBODY.

That's true, but I'm not sure that we can know. I mean, one thing we do know is that at least in the age before the really intrusive tabloid journalists, the royal spin doctors weren't shy about presenting their subjects in the best possible light even if it meant being very economical with the truth. And then we have the Diana-Morton spin which has been taken as hard fact by many, and we also have the fact that friends of Charles and Diana were talking to the press and I believe even Camilla was talking to the editor of the Sun on and off for years. I think TheTruth was fairly spot on when she said that a lot of unfortunate things happened and led to a disaster.

I don't know how true it is that Camilla was so much more special to Charles than other girlfriends had been so that he was devastated when she got married in a way that he hadn't been when other girlfriends got married. That's what we hear now, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. However, one thing I don't believe is that he went into his marriage with the clear-eyed intent of its being a marriage in name only while he carried on with Camilla behind Diana's back. He seems to be more of a romantic than a realist, and I think in letters at the time of his marriage he said he was looking forward to creating the same sort of family atmosphere that Grannie had created when she married George VI. I honestly don't see how he could have thought to do that if he wasn't prepared to be emotionally committed to Diana. So my feeling about his relationship with Camilla is that however intense it was in its early stages, that intensity must have cooled by the time of his engagement or he wouldn't have been saying the things he was saying.

And then it seems as though he had no idea how to handle Diana's insecurities, and his family (and her family) were no help whatever. Again, it was the "present the royals in as good a light as possible" spin, along with the Queen Mother's famous ostriching, the lack of Mountbatten by then, and the Queen's apparent inability to understand Diana's problems. To say nothing of her age and inexperience, and the fact that her own family, having married her off into the royal family, seemed to have pretty much abandoned her. Given that sort of reality, it's quite possible that he was romanticising his "lost love." But to me, his comments to Jonathan Dimbleby in the interview, when he said that he went into his marriage intending to make it succeed, were sincere, and I don't really see how you can make a marriage succeed if you're completely committed emotionally to someone else.

And yes, it's true, I do believe C&C stayed together way before Diana started her affairs. So what? How many times here was implied that Diana was more than crazy, absolutely mad, sleeping around, selfish, and so on? How many times did I come here to accuse you or anybody? I hardly post here because everybody seems so touchy about C&C, C&D, etc.

Well, it's a touchy subject. We have quite a few of those around TRF.

In the end, it's just my opinion and it doesn't change AT ALL the fact that C&C are way better suited to each other. It doesn't change the fact that Diana could and should have dealt with that in one million different and better ways. It doesn't change the fact they C&C could and should have dealt with that in one million different and better ways too. *IMO* only shows that the feelings between C&C were so strong that not even his marriage could change that. And *IMO* didn't change one bit.

So, I will refrain to make further posts about C&C (and God forbid C&D), no hard feelings from my part.

Well, I've been enjoying your posts, so I hope you'll carry on contributing to the thread.

[Elspeth]

I've deleted some posts that were getting back to the CCD wars as well as a post complaining about biased moderation. If anyone wants to complain about the British forum moderation, please contact one of the non-British-moderator admins. Keep it out of the threads; it isn't fair on people wishing to discuss the thread topic.

Elspeth
British Royals moderator

[kimebear]

I agree with Elspeth that Camilla was really in love with Andrew Parker Bowles from the beginning. I'm also of the opinion that, even during the early stages, Camilla showed interest in Charles the man and not the Prince of Wales. Quite frankly, I think even today she is a reluctant consort. I'm sure she loves him in every sense of the word, but I get the feeling that perhaps she would have been happier if he was only Lord Something or Another, the country gentleman. They wouldn't be the first people to realize different romantic feelings as they got older. If Charles had not been pushed into marrying a "sweet young thing" the whole situation could have turned out so much differently for everyone. Given a different bride more his age and temperment might well have stopped him ever giving Camilla another romantic backward glance and kept them friends only.

I also don't know how much weight I can give to the rumor of the "I'm not going to be the only Prince of Wales without a mistress" comment either. Although I wouldn't be at all suprised if it was true. Charles would not have been the first royal man to share his throne with one woman who made the people happy and his heart with another woman who made him happy.

[Monika_]

Personally, I think APB was her best second choice. She knew she wasn't going to be Charles' bride so she opted to do the next best thing available to her. If she was really in love with APB, she would not have looked back on her time with Charles.

[MARG]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

I was trying to find the passage in a book that says I believe, that the C's were in fact the Chanel logo.

That makes sense. But what a lot of milage that story has had.

Originally Posted by kimebear

I agree with Elspeth that Camilla was really in love with Andrew Parker Bowles from the beginning. I'm also of the opinion that, even during the early stages, Camilla showed interest in Charles the man and not the Prince of Wales.

I too believe that is true. It would have been pretty unique for Charles to meet a woman who saw him as himself.

Originally Posted by kimebear

They wouldn't be the first people to realize different romantic feelings as they got older.

You are right there. I find the scenario of two close friends leaning on each other whist they were both stuck in unhappy marriages more believeable than some of the more salatious allegations

Originally Posted by kimebear

Given a different bride more his age and temperment might well have stopped him ever giving Camilla another romantic backward glance and kept them friends only.

As would Camilla if APB hadn't turned out to be a serial womaniser.

Unlike so many others, I find the scenario of true deep friendhip totally believeable. In this day of "instant" everything the old fashioned notion of friendship that stands the test of time and distance is an anachronism. I think that we are all the poorer for it.

[Monika_]

...but if Camilla and Charles were just friends, then why on their wedding day did they feel a need to state the following:

"We acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickedness, Which we, from time to time, most grievously have committed, by thought, word and deed." And... “We do earnestly repent, And are heartily sorry for these our misdoings. Have mercy upon us .... Forgive us all that is past.”

There was no need to go this far if they shared the odd coffee. Or am I reading way too much into their words, as they stated them?

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by agatha1939

That is true, I can agree with that. It seems there are 2 spins going on very strong, one when people believe that Diana didn't matter, C&C were so in love that Charles and Diana never had a chance. And the other one (very strong in this forum I may say) when people believe Camila didn't matter, Diana was so instable that because of that, her wedding didn't have a chance. Like everythning in life, it is probably something in the middle.

IMO, it's exactly because I don't believe that Camila was a just "fling" for Charles that I find very hard to believe that they stayed just as friends. I know it can happen, everything is possible, but I don't think it's that common and *I* cannot believe it happened in that case. If they were really in love, and both in a loveless marriage, it would "make sense" FOR THEM to live whatever they were feeling. It doesn't mean they wanted other people to suffer because of that.

I used to be 100% pro-Diana and put all the blame on Charles, but I got older (LOL) and now I understand better about relationships. Diana behaved very bad, she could - and should - have changed HER behaviour to try to get her husband "back" and if that failed, then divorce him. She had children with Charles and she should have put them in 1st place, not her. But I also cannot make myself to believe that she entered a marriage with a man who had only a friend like some people believe, I still believe C&C were in love BEFORE and WHEN PW married Diana and his "plan" (please, note the quotes) was to have a "good" marriage with Diana - like Camila had with APB - but his heart was Camila's.

IMO, it doesn't matter Diana was fighting with him about his duties, shooting, etc, these kind of arguments happen in many marriages and they don't end because of them. The same thing I said about Diana applies to Charles, it doesn't matter she was spoiled, naive, immature, whatever, he married her, he had to deal with her OR divorce her. IMO, the fact that Charles knew he had Camila as his love (not just a friend) changed the whole thing, not only for Diana, but most importantly for him.

Well, I think we'll never know what exactly happened, so many spins from so many places and people...

You make a lot of good points but I think you (and many women) underestimate the importance of friends in a man's life; for many, a man's friends are more important than his wife. He can pick up and drop girlfriends like crazy but the circle of his closest friends remains intact over the years. So to say that Camilla was Charles' friend when he married means that Camilla's support as a friend was more important to Charles than Diana's relationship was to him simply because a friendship was worth more to him than a romantic love. But I think that's true of his relationships with all his friends even today, not only Camilla. Men don't attach the same feelings of self-esteem and personal worth to their romantic relationships as women do. When Charles showed that he didn't care for Diana, that cut into Diana's self-esteem and sense of worth as a woman. But Diana's flings and Camilla's attempts to go back to APB didn't affect Charles' self-esteem as a man at all. As long as Charles had his steady group of supportive friends, his self-esteem remained intact and overall he seemed unscarred by all the turmoil going on.

The fact that Charles had a group of supportive friends ready to listen and commiserate with him through all his travails was a blessing but it could also be a curse. I imagine that this group of friends made an impenetrable wall to any romantic interest of any of the friends who dared enter their circle. In other words, I believe Charles and his friends were somewhat cliquish and an outsider such as Diana had to prove themselves to the group to gain entry into the private sanctum and be accepted.

Entry and acceptance into that private sanctum of friends was, I believe, the key to Charles' heart-not a single woman's love. In hindsight, it was an extremely unfair test to put someone through but no one realized it at the time.