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View Poll Results: When did your opinion of Diana start to change and why?
Morton book (1990) 25 9.80%
War of the Waleses (starting 1990) 20 7.84%
Squidgygate (1992) 12 4.71%
Hewitt affair (1993) 17 6.67%
Charles' interview (1994) 5 1.96%
Panorama interview (1995) 43 16.86%
Phone calls to Oliver Hoare (1994) 14 5.49%
Dodi al-Fayed (1997) 23 9.02%
Other (please explain) 96 37.65%
Voters: 255. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1001  
Old 05-19-2011, 01:02 AM
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William, I believe, can be just as strong-willed as his mother was.

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Originally Posted by Dymphna View Post
I couldn't help but wonder if William would have proposed had Diana still been alive.
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  #1002  
Old 05-19-2011, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Well he certainly green-lighted his friends to villify her in the press, such as Fatty Soames. Let's also not forget that Camilla, during the Mistress decades, gave regular briefings to the Editor of The Sun "to get Charles' side out". That's hardly taking the high road.

Both Charles and Diana had their friends badmouth the other but Charles personally never badmouthed Diana but she did try to destroy him publicly and often - that is the difference.

Charles never put down Diana publicly.

Diana regularly put down Charles.
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  #1003  
Old 05-19-2011, 03:18 AM
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Yes, quite. In a way, Diana acted more like a politician than a wife. She got whatever dirt she could find and threw it at him publicly. It wasn't enough for her to have the public's admiration; she wanted to destroy the opposition. What a shame.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Charles never put down Diana publicly.

Diana regularly put down Charles.
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  #1004  
Old 05-19-2011, 07:26 PM
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It's not like there was not a scarcity of dirt to be found. He was often his own worst enemy. For example when he went to the opera the night william had fractured his skull and had surgery.
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  #1005  
Old 05-19-2011, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
It's not like there was not a scarcity of dirt to be found. He was often his own worst enemy. For example when he went to the opera the night william had fractured his skull and had surgery.

And he knew that he was going to be all right, that Diana was going to be with him and that a lot of people would be disappointed if he didn't go - duty before family - as he had been taught - worst enemy or simply a torn man who did what he had been raised to do - put his duty first and that meant ensuring that the public and the performers weren't disappointed in having a royal cancel an event.

It is easy to criticise but sometimes we do need to look at both sides of an issue - something I know that some people refuse to do with their blinkers on - to see things from the point of view of the performers and Charles and the way he was raised.

If William was in danger then yes he should have stayed but her wasn't in danger at the time - as even Diana admitted - William was going to be fine - but it is an easy stick to chastise Charles with - to say he was a bad father and use that example but as there is overwhelming evidence that he was and is a fantastic father it is a bit of a stretch.
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  #1006  
Old 05-19-2011, 09:17 PM
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There was a time when I thought that Charles's leaving to go to the opera was appalling, but I've softened my view. If Prince William's life was hanging in the balance, I think that Prince Charles would have stayed. But it wasn't. I don't believe that he's a hard, uncaring man, particularly toward his children. In the Wales' marriage, there was more than enough scandal to go around. One could turn the argument around, that Diana's upset showed that she didn't understand the seriousness of Charles' position and that his duty sometimes was more important than what he personally would like to do. Quite possibly, he might have preferred to stay at the hospital; but duty called.


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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
If William was in danger then yes he should have stayed but her wasn't in danger at the time - as even Diana admitted - William was going to be fine - .
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  #1007  
Old 05-19-2011, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
There was a time when I thought that Charles's leaving to go to the opera was appalling, but I've softened my view. If Prince William's life was hanging in the balance, I think that Prince Charles would have stayed. But it wasn't. I don't believe that he's a hard, uncaring man, particularly toward his children. In the Wales' marriage, there was more than enough scandal to go around. One could turn the argument around, that Diana's upset showed that she didn't understand the seriousness of Charles' position and that his duty sometimes was more important than what he personally would like to do. Quite possibly, he might have preferred to stay at the hospital; but duty called.
That is exactly the case - duty called and his son was out of danger - of course Diana milked it for all she was worth to paint Charles as an uncaring father - but that was her way of course - to hurt Charles at every opportunity in the press and in the home - and too bad about the impact on their sons.
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  #1008  
Old 05-19-2011, 11:52 PM
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Hi, I haven't been here in awhile and I thought I'd check in because I just got around to finishing Ken Wharfe's book, Closely Guarded Secret.

According to him, the marriage between Charles and Diana was way beyond bad by the time William got hurt. Most of the time, they couldn't stay in the same room together and their individual entourages had to do major tap dancing to avoid them having to spend any time together.

When William was hurt, according to the book, Diana made it clear that she was staying with William for the night and she didn't want Charles there. This was pretty standard for how their relationship was going at that point. Charles checked in with the hospital to check on William's condition and his prognosis and then aquiesced and didn't stay with Diana. Wharfe remarked that it was clear that Charles was concerned with his son but said it was a bad decision to go to the opera. I got the sense that Wharfe was more talking about the public relations angle rather than Charles' concern as a father. I seriously doubt whether Wharfe or anybody else in Diana's or Charles' party really wanted to deal with Charles and Diana being in the same place all night. Things were seriously that bad between them.

What surprised me about the book was how bad their marriage really was for a long time. I'm amazed they were able to put up a front as long as they did because both of them seemed to be absolutely miserable together pretty much all the time. I had thought they could be at least some of the times cordial and civil but according to Wharfe having them together in the same place was always problematic for the staff.

There was a sad account of the two waiting for their car to arrive for a State Banquet and Diana was acting like a caged animal wanting to go ahead while everybody was trying to tell her that they had to wait for their spot in line right in front of the Queen. Charles was ignoring her and making martinis. Wharfe indicated that they didn't have to wait too long but even this short amount of time together was too much.

It was pretty pathetic. I was sad for both of them but rather annoyed too that they did this to themselves and each other.
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  #1009  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:13 AM
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IMO none of them came out looking better than the other. Diana publicly vilified Charles its even recorded. While Charles allowed his friends to villify Diana, to the point where they publicly questioned her mental health. He didn't stop or prevent them. As to whether he put down Diana, publicly he didn't, as to privately that is a matter of opinion. Charles isn't better than Diana nor is Diana better than him. The sob stories of poor poor Charles and bad Diana or poor Diana and bad Charles is beyond old. They both behaved appallingly publicly and privately.
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  #1010  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
IMO none of them came out looking better than the other. Diana publicly vilified Charles its even recorded. While Charles allowed his friends to villify Diana, to the point where they publicly questioned her mental health. He didn't stop or prevent them. As to whether he put down Diana, publicly he didn't, as to privately that is a matter of opinion. Charles isn't better than Diana nor is Diana better than him. The sob stories of poor poor Charles and bad Diana or poor Diana and bad Charles is beyond old. They both behaved appallingly publicly and privately.

I disagree because Charles never publicly put down his wife whereas she constantly did all she could to hurt Charles.

They both had their friends make public statements about the other but Diana behaved like a spoilt child whose only way of behaving was to publicly trash the other person - like the 12 year olds I teach. Charles could have stopped his friends - sure - but he never said anything negative himself publicly and thus never publicly made known his feelings directly.

Diana's tirades must have heard her sons but she didn't care about their feelings - only her own - typical of her - Diana first and foremost and no-one else ever mattered - not even her sons whom she was supposed to love.
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  #1011  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I disagree because Charles never publicly put down his wife whereas she constantly did all she could to hurt Charles
I have read books on Diana, Princess of Wales and I can say Prince Charles did make embarrassing comments in public to Diana.

1) On their Canadian trip when Diana fainted. He complained to the Princess when she was waking up in front of people.

2) On a trip to an Arab country he told the princess to go shop because that is what a woman does and not listen to the men talk. I might not be writing it correctly by Diana was embarrassed by the comment.

If Prince Charles was so easy to life with I think Princess Diana have been married to him until death.

Just like Sirhon stated. It takes two to make a marriage. There were three in the marriage from the beginning. I think Diana, Princess of Wales put up with the situation an awful long time.

Getting back on topic Diana, Princess of Wales is still a hard act for any princess to follow. My opinion is favorable in how she lived her public life.
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  #1012  
Old 05-20-2011, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
I have read books on Diana, Princess of Wales and I can say Prince Charles did make embarrassing comments in public to Diana.

1) On their Canadian trip when Diana fainted. He complained to the Princess when she was waking up in front of people.

2) On a trip to an Arab country he told the princess to go shop because that is what a woman does and not listen to the men talk. I might not be writing it correctly by Diana was embarrassed by the comment.

If Prince Charles was so easy to life with I think Princess Diana have been married to him until death.

Just like Sirhon stated. It takes two to make a marriage. There were three in the marriage from the beginning. I think Diana, Princess of Wales put up with the situation an awful long time.

Getting back on topic Diana, Princess of Wales is still a hard act for any princess to follow. My opinion is favorable in how she lived her public life.
Please provide links to your allegations.

If Diana was so easy to live with Charles may have stayed with her.

As Diana herself says that Charles returned to Camilla in 1986, the same year she went to Hewitt - it is wrong to say there were three in the marriage from the beginning - there were three for a short period of time before she added the fourth, fifth, sixth etc with her numerous lovers and she became the third person in the Will Carling marriage.

Let's be fair to both of them - they shouldn't have married, they both wanted to pull out before the wedding but their families told them that they were only suffering nerves. Diana walked down that aisle believing her husband to be was in love with another man. Charles walked down that aisle knowing he didn't feel comfortable with her. They both should have called off the marriage when they both knew it was wrong but they went through with it and then, when it failed, one was prepared to try to keep up appearances while the other set out to destroy not only the partner but his entire family.
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  #1013  
Old 05-20-2011, 06:20 AM
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I think the major problem is that Diana did not have a close relatinship with her mother-in-law. Had QE been able to act as a mentor I think many things would have looked different. Pressumably she knew Dianas background and I feel QE could have done more to support Diana emotionally and realised how big a transition this would be for a 19 yo girl.

Todays CPs have a thourogh introduction into the society of which they have to live. Even if Diana were Brittish I doubt that many 19 yo have the insight into why things work the way the do. To have this knowledge pehaps makes it easier to navigate certain situations.

Our Queen MII, has said at one point, that since CP Mary no longer have a mother, that it were here duty to be there for Mary. And give her support.
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  #1014  
Old 05-20-2011, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by olebabs View Post
I think the major problem is that Diana did not have a close relatinship with her mother-in-law. Had QE been able to act as a mentor I think many things would have looked different. Pressumably she knew Dianas background and I feel QE could have done more to support Diana emotionally and realised how big a transition this would be for a 19 yo girl.

Todays CPs have a thourogh introduction into the society of which they have to live. Even if Diana were Brittish I doubt that many 19 yo have the insight into why things work the way the do. To have this knowledge pehaps makes it easier to navigate certain situations.

Our Queen MII, has said at one point, that since CP Mary no longer have a mother, that it were here duty to be there for Mary. And give her support.
But Diana still had her mother so the Queen would have been treading on the toes of Diana's mother.
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  #1015  
Old 05-20-2011, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
But Diana still had her mother so the Queen would have been treading on the toes of Diana's mother.
Yes I know she did. But Dianas mother were not the Monarch and I am sure she wouldn´t know how to navigate the establishment in the same way. And the was closer to Diana on a day to day basis.

Please do not take my comment as disrespectful to QE. I admire her emmensely for the way she has adaptet to the whole situation with Charles and Camilla and (for me at least) it seems as though she has been a great support for Wiiliam after his mother died.
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  #1016  
Old 05-20-2011, 11:48 AM
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Compared to some mother-in-laws I know, the Queen was an ideal mother-in-law because she didn't get involved in their marriage. I can't count how many women I have heard say that they wish their mother-in-law would stay out of their marriage.

Honestly, if Diana was looking for that kind of support from the Queen, I think she was being unrealistic. Charles is who he is but he was still the Queen's first child that the Queen gave birth to when she was very young and at a stage in her life where she had the most normal, family-friendly atmosphere for being a mother. The Queen was barely older than Diana when she gave birth to her first child and from Diana's relationship with William, you can see how durable that bond can be. I seriously doubt that Diana would support Kate over her firstborn son William.
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  #1017  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:05 PM
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I believe the queen was well aware of her son's shortcomings and surely she had a lot of understanding at first for Diana. But at a certain point she must have realised that nothing Charles could offer to change the situation would be enough for Diana and that Diana had character traits which made her difficult to live with when things did not work out as she wanted it.

There are surely mothers who try to help their daughter-in-law when she has a problem with her husband but the wife should accept this help as a positive influence for the marriage, but never against the son. That's unrealistic as long as the mother has a good relation with her son she will try to help but not side with her daughter-in-law unconditionally.
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  #1018  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I disagree because Charles never publicly put down his wife whereas she constantly did all she could to hurt Charles.

They both had their friends make public statements about the other but Diana behaved like a spoilt child whose only way of behaving was to publicly trash the other person - like the 12 year olds I teach. Charles could have stopped his friends - sure - but he never said anything negative himself publicly and thus never publicly made known his feelings directly.

Diana's tirades must have heard her sons but she didn't care about their feelings - only her own - typical of her - Diana first and foremost and no-one else ever mattered - not even her sons whom she was supposed to love.
You don't think publicly saying his mistress was non negotiable wouldn't hurt his sons or Diana? When my parents carried out their affairs with their lovers it hurt me. You may not agree that's fine, but I stand by my opinion and won't try to make one look worse than other. Those kids were hurt by both of them regardless if it was done publicly or privately it hurts just the same.
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  #1019  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
I have read books on Diana, Princess of Wales and I can say Prince Charles did make embarrassing comments in public to Diana.

1) On their Canadian trip when Diana fainted. He complained to the Princess when she was waking up in front of people.

2) On a trip to an Arab country he told the princess to go shop because that is what a woman does and not listen to the men talk. I might not be writing it correctly by Diana was embarrassed by the comment.
Sources were asked so here are two I found:
EDIT
Gulf State trip: Diana by Sarah Bradford Pg 196 "Patrick Jephson witnessed an incident on the royal couple's tour of the Gulf States earlier that year, in March 1989. The royal host was offering his visiotrs coffee: The royal host and his senior guest (the Prince of Wales) were sticking manfully to their scripts... Plainly uncomfortable, the Princess was not joining in either, nor was she invited to by the Prince or her host. She seemed to have created an invisble barrier round herself, as if to say that she was apart from the polite charade going on around her. To me she looked excluded and vulnerable. To the host as well, presumably, because eventually he leaned across the Prince to ask her politely what she was going to do during her visit. Under the the unexpected attention she visibly brightened, perhaps thinking - as I was- of the serious programme we had arranged: visits to a day centre for mentally handicapped children, a clinic for immigrant women and a girls' business studies class.

The Prince also turned towards her, looking as if he were seeing her for the first time, ruefully indulgent, patronising. There was asn expectant hush. Before she could reply, he said with studied innocence, 'Shopping isn't it darling.' The Princess coloured, mumbled something inaudible and lasped into silence."

The Canada Tour: Diana by Sarah Bradford P.G. 152-53 "In Vancouver Diana, once again prey to her eating disorder, fainted by his side only to recieve minimum sympathy. Diana, it appeared, thought that he was convinced she had done it on purpose to gain sympathy and to distract attention from himself."

It is remarkable that by the time of her death both Charles and Diana repaired their relationship to provide their sons with a happy family life, after everything that was said and done.
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  #1020  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
I have read books on Diana, Princess of Wales and I can say Prince Charles did make embarrassing comments in public to Diana.
Yeah, I can agree with that. There was the infamous comment where he said he wished he had two wives so he could send both of them on opposite sides of the royal walkabout so he could re-direct traffic.

Honestly though, I think Diana did more public sniping but after reading Wharfe's book, I think its irrelevant. Their private relationship was vile and what got reported in public didn't always match what was going on in private. Some incidences where it was claimed she was showing Charles up, Wharfe maintained that she really just wanted to get away from the Royal Family and the press. Other incidences that didn't get much press coverage, Wharfe claimed that she was trying to show Charles up and was disappointed in the lack of coverage. Conversely, the first public function Charles and Diana did together after their separation where everyone was amazed at how well they got on and wondered whether they were going to get back together, Wharfe maintains it was just an act. He quoted Charles as responding to a question, 'How do you two do it?' and Charles said 'Smoke and mirrors'

The funniest incident (at least to me, not to Wharfe, he was irritated) was the trip that Diana and her boys took to Disney World. Disney had a VIP pass that allowed guests to use private walkways and underground tunnels to the rides and cut in line so they would have the most privacy. This was a big complaint against Diana in that she claimed to want normalcy but took advantage of perks to let her cut in line. Wharfe maintains that she did NOT want the VIP pass; she said she didn't want to be seen as taking advantage. He overruled her because of security issues.

He suspected that something was up with her because she was in a vile mood; so he had a guest check and found that Richard Kay was booked into one of the hotels. Kay was the only name he recognized and was known for having direct contact with Diana. So Wharfe suspected Diana of actually wanting to court publicity to show up Charles which was the real reason for her not wanting the VIP pass. However, she maintained to him that she did not want publicity. Wharfe was peeved at her not being honest with him which he maintained was vital for his role as her security guard so he decided to take her at her word and stave off any attempts by the press to get a scoop.

He reported that despite the best security measures, some of the press always showed up at the very rides they were going on and Disney World is big. He suspected that Diana was consistently clueing somebody in to let them know where she'd be. But every time the press tried to get their shot, either he or Disney thwarted them so they didn't get their scoop.

As the trip wore on, he reported that Diana got more and more pissed and difficult to deal with but he took a tactic from Charles' book and let her stew. Initially in the book, he was very critical of Charles' ignoring Diana and I had to agree with him. I think Charles took the easy way out and just left the servants to deal with her which was unfair to her and to the servants. But by the end of the book, Wharfe was handling her like Charles was.

Maybe this is Schadenfreude but I did enjoy reading how Diana got so pissed at her own security guard for thwarting her attempts to do something underhanded. In this incident, I thought she deserved exactly what she got.

As an American, I also enjoyed the fact that despite Wharfe's rather superior condescending towards Americans regarding security (he claimed credit for thwarting the press at Disney) there were quite a few incidents where he didn't even need to get involved, Disney's security measures were quite capable of handing the onslaught of the Diana press mob.
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