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View Poll Results: When did your opinion of Diana start to change and why?
Morton book (1990) 25 9.80%
War of the Waleses (starting 1990) 20 7.84%
Squidgygate (1992) 12 4.71%
Hewitt affair (1993) 17 6.67%
Charles' interview (1994) 5 1.96%
Panorama interview (1995) 43 16.86%
Phone calls to Oliver Hoare (1994) 14 5.49%
Dodi al-Fayed (1997) 23 9.02%
Other (please explain) 96 37.65%
Voters: 255. You may not vote on this poll

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  #521  
Old 01-16-2008, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbrida View Post

About the word "cut-off", since from 1995 to 1997 was merely two years, didn't contact friends for two years doesn't mean cut-off. Who know whether Diana would contact them again had she not died?
We cannot have a realistic discussion regarding how our opinions about Diana changed if we base it on a "what if" type of supposition. It just doesn't work. Her behavior was what it was and she had opportunities to redeem herself often, but choose not to do so. That is my whole point about Diana--I keep reading and re-reading how Diana was used, had a bad childhood, was too famous to have real friends, etc etc etc......it is a constant barrage of excuses for what can only be classified as bad behavior. Honestly, my own son, who at the time was age 5, learned the difference between good choices and bad choices. We were at the pool, I told him not to get on the diving board, and I looked up and where was he? On the diving board. So, I said to him "Sterling, is that a good choice or a bad choice?" and he just kinda looked at me, and I then said "How can you make your bad choice a good choice?" and he got down and went where he was supposed to be. Same theory applies to all adults-we make our own decisions and we have to live with those decisions and their consequences, good or bad. Most people eventually discover how to make good decisions, some do not--but we make our own decisions--and yes, that applies to even the Sainted Diana.
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  #522  
Old 01-17-2008, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhontella View Post
As in the words of Skydragon, where are your links or proof of this? It seems I remember Diana in interactions with her friends pre-Charles.
Both Virginia Pitman and Anne Bolton when in the mid 80's were asked about Diana said they had very little contact. Search the library hardcopies of newspapers and magazines of the time and I'm sure you'll find some reference to them. ( It wasn't something they stated negatively, rather more philosophical) Anne Bolton married an Australia and so there was some coverage of her in Australia and it was also reported that she had no contact with Diana. More recently Harry when on his Gap Year, stayed with Anne Bolton in Australia as she had married the son of one of Prince Charles's friends, a wealthy grazier. Harry went to work on their cattle station ( ranch to non-Australians) The contact though was Charles's connection to the family, not Diana's again it was reported that Anne and Diana hadn't maintained contact. Charles knows the family well and Anne met her future husband at Charles and Diana's wedding.

As for Carolyn Bartholomew, Tina Brown has 'on the record' statements about the fact that Diana broke off contact in the mid 1990's.

James Colhurst who was Diana teenage friend and stayed in contact with Diana and was trusted by her to provide material for the Morton book, went very much 'on the record' with Tina Brown and is quoted in her book also tells how he fell out of favour with Diana as she expected him to be at her beck and call and didn't appreciate when he told her that it was embarrassing for William for her to constantly go to Eton and basically hunt him down infront of his friends. James said as he himself had been at Eton he knew how embarrassing it was for a teenage boy in a boarding school to have his mother constantly turning up.

The sad consequence of Diana falling out with people was that in the last summer of her life she really didn't have anyone or anywhere to spend her summer holidays and that's why she accepted the al Fayed offer of a holiday. Had she had other options then she wouldn't have gone with the al Fayeds, she was looking at a long summer with bored teenagers in London ( for the time she had William and Harry) and then by herself when other people were off on holidays. She had organised the holiday with Rosa Monckton ( a friend only from 1991 according to the inquest) and some time in Milan with another friend, but that time was cancelled. Until that particular friend Lana testifies at the inquest we won't know how long they were friends either, but I doubt if the friendship would go back to Diana's pre-Charles days.
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  #523  
Old 01-17-2008, 08:09 AM
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Let's avoid telling other members what they should and should not be discussing in the thread.

I also deleted some personal comments between members. Let's eliminate them too. You don't have to like each other but please refrain from throwing sarcastic comments about your fellow members in the thread which can only make the temperature hotter.

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  #524  
Old 01-17-2008, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbrida View Post
About the word "cut-off", since from 1995 to 1997 was merely two years, didn't contact friends for two years doesn't mean cut-off.
That isn't the way friendships are supposed to be, you don't cut someone off and then expect to pick up again, when you feel like it. It seemed to me that she used people and cast them aside when it suited her purpose, without any thought for their feelings.
  #525  
Old 01-17-2008, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
That isn't the way friendships are supposed to be, you don't cut someone off and then expect to pick up again, when you feel like it. It seemed to me that she used people and cast them aside when it suited her purpose, without any thought for their feelings.
Its not a good practice I agree but I don't think Diana didn't care for people or that she used them. I think she dropped people because she didn't know how to resolve conflicts healthily with them.
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  #526  
Old 01-17-2008, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
That isn't the way friendships are supposed to be, you don't cut someone off and then expect to pick up again, when you feel like it. It seemed to me that she used people and cast them aside when it suited her purpose, without any thought for their feelings.
That's what Paul Burrell said yesterday about the way Diana obviously saw the world (the last is my interpretation):

"I remember on occasion she talked about her own
4 engagement ring and made comment on that, saying that,
5 well, she didn't get the choice, it was chosen for her.
6 Like everything in her life, she was always thought of
7 in second or third place. "

Like everything in her life, she was always thought of in second or third place.... now, if she really felt that way after how she had been treated in her life ever since she became the Princess of Wales, I don't know what idea she had of life and how it works. She was virtually carried over red carpets around the world, she had servants at her beck and call, endless nimbers of hosts tried to make her visit comfortable and she thought that "she was always thought of in second or third place"?

Well, to be honest, mankind is a bunch of egotists and egocentrics and I think that in reality most people think of themselves first but that's a reality and nothing to complain about.

As for engagement rinds: here in Germany you normally are not consulted when it comes to the engagement ring, it's the groom, maybe aided by a friend or his parents selects the ring or makes a pre-selection of several, but presents one and gives you the chance to change it after you accepted. You do choose the wedding bands together, though. It's the same in Britain, isn't it? So Charles' choosing of the ring without consulting Diana was okay, or am I wrong? But it shows of course how very foreign those two were when they decided to get married. I bet william will have quite the idea what kind of ring Catherine will want once he decides to offer her "the" ring.

And another of the Burrell-quotes about Diana and relations:

Very often relationships did that
21 in the Princess's world. She became infatuated,
22 obsessed with someone, and then grew tired of them.
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  #527  
Old 01-17-2008, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
That's what Paul Burrell said yesterday about the way Diana obviously saw the world (the last is my interpretation):

"I remember on occasion she talked about her own
4 engagement ring and made comment on that, saying that,
5 well, she didn't get the choice, it was chosen for her.
6 Like everything in her life, she was always thought of
7 in second or third place. "
.
Hmm, interesting. Stephen Barry, Charles' valet at the marriage said that Diana was presented with a collection of engagement rings and chose her favorite the blue sapphire. I tend to believe Barry more because he published his memoirs before the War of the Waleses got started. If Diana actually said this to Burrell, I suspect that she was just doing some mindless complaining - like, They never let me do anything and exaggerating in the process.

I wonder if the feeling in second or third place was more a problem for Burrell than it was for Diana. Its possible he was projecting his own feelings on her. Other than being born a girl when her parents wanted a boy, the tag doesn't fit. When she was married to Charles, she was next to the highest lady in the land and while that was second place, being Princess of Wales and only second to the Queen is nothing to sneeze at.

Quote:
And another of the Burrell-quotes about Diana and relations:

Very often relationships did that
21 in the Princess's world. She became infatuated,
22 obsessed with someone, and then grew tired of them.
Interesting. That's another reason I think Diana just didn't know how to handle some conflicts well. It seem like at first the other person was totally wonderful, nothing wrong, and then when she found a fault or some problem that needed to be worked out between them, she didn't know how to do it and so left.
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  #528  
Old 01-17-2008, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
Interesting. That's another reason I think Diana just didn't know how to handle some conflicts well. It seem like at first the other person was totally wonderful, nothing wrong, and then when she found a fault or some problem that needed to be worked out between them, she didn't know how to do it and so left.
I don't think it was even that, as someone described her actions - "A child with a new toy, use it, abuse it and cast it aside for the next new toy".
  #529  
Old 01-17-2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I don't think it was even that, as someone described her actions - "A child with a new toy, use it, abuse it and cast it aside for the next new toy".
As Diana has never made a statement about this, any story cannot be based on anything other than imagination. Do you know with 100% or even 35% certainty, that Diana thought of her friends as mere toys instead of Diana having problems with trust/resolving conflicts?
  #530  
Old 01-17-2008, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhontella View Post
As Diana has never made a statement about this, any story cannot be based on anything other than imagination. Do you know with 100% or even 35% certainty, that Diana thought of her friends as mere toys instead of Diana having problems with trust/resolving conflicts?
I see your point here, zhontella, but at the moment we are discussing what Paul Burrell, a person who was the closest to her for the last 5 years of her life and who still adores her, said on oath. Thus that's how it was. He said:

Very often relationships did that
21 in the Princess's world. She became infatuated,
22 obsessed with someone, and then grew tired of them.

Now that is a very clear statement. "Very often" Diana became infatuated and obsessed with someone but grew tired of them.
What else is there to say? Adults normally don't become "obsessed" with others out of habit and then grow tired of them. To "grow tired" of people IMHO says very clearly that these people were not seen as partners in some sort of communication but as objects. That is the way a child thinks and acts.

Si IMHO what Skydragon said is just another wording of what Paul Burrell said. And he said that on oath.

That's what he said in context (about her relationship with Dodi shortly before the crash):

I felt she was telling me -- she was inferring that
19 this relationship had reached its peak and it was going
20 down the other side. Very often relationships did that
21 in the Princess's world. She became infatuated,
22 obsessed with someone, and then grew tired of them.
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  #531  
Old 01-17-2008, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
I see your point here, zhontella, but at the moment we are discussing what Paul Burrell, a person who was the closest to her for the last 5 years of her life and who still adores her, said on oath. Thus that's how it was. He said:

Very often relationships did that
21 in the Princess's world. She became infatuated,
22 obsessed with someone, and then grew tired of them.
I think Mr. Burrell was talking about men relationships Jo. zhontella is talking about all personal relationships. We all know Princess Diana's track record with men that are louses or married. I think she did not grow tired of Dr. Kahn and would have married him if he would let her. Also, reading a book about Diana - she gave Oliver Hoard cuff links from her father, so it is possible that she wanted to keep Dodi interested. Mr. Burrell and her close girlfriends were compartmentalized with her true motives on Dodi. Only time would have told us if the relationship would have worked out.
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  #532  
Old 01-17-2008, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by zhontella View Post
As Diana has never made a statement about this, any story cannot be based on anything other than imagination. Do you know with 100% or even 35% certainty, that Diana thought of her friends as mere toys instead of Diana having problems with trust/resolving conflicts?
I would have to suggest that you read my comment in context of what was being said.

Why would Diana make a statement on how she treated friends? IMO, Diana gave no thought to how she treated friends after she had finished with them. The description was made, to me, by someone she had treated in that manner, not in a press release or TV interview. As I was not presenting it as said by so & so or printed in a paper, it is what it is, a personal observation.
  #533  
Old 01-17-2008, 02:00 PM
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I just completed reading Paul Burrell's book- no matter what we think of him (advocate, opportunist, or somewhere in between), it really struck me how much he devoted to serving her. If he chose this or if it was demanded of him- who knows. However, he admits in the book that his wife often questioned how much Diana 'needed' him... at all hours of the day and night. If she was indeed so clingy and reliant on friends, it's easy to understand why she did not keep them for long.
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  #534  
Old 01-17-2008, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
The description was made, to me, by someone she had treated in that manner, not in a press release or TV interview. As I was not presenting it as said by so & so or printed in a paper, it is what it is, a personal observation.
Skydragon was this person a female or male that Princess Diana treated in a bad manner. Also was this person from Princes Charles camp?
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  #535  
Old 01-17-2008, 04:06 PM
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Getting back to Diana's 1981 engagement ring... it was my understanding that the jeweler brought a whole tray of rings of various kinds, and Diana picked out the biggest one on the tray. And the way I heard the story, Prince Charles and the Queen were there as she did this. (And allegedly the Queen was taken aback by her ostentatious choice -- although I don't know who would have leaked the Queen's thoughts on the subject.)

Young Diana must not have been very educated about gems, however, as the biggest isn't necessarily the best in quality.
  #536  
Old 01-17-2008, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by iowabelle View Post
Getting back to Diana's 1981 engagement ring... it was my understanding that the jeweler brought a whole tray of rings of various kinds, and Diana picked out the biggest one on the tray. And the way I heard the story, Prince Charles and the Queen were there as she did this. (And allegedly the Queen was taken aback by her ostentatious choice -- although I don't know who would have leaked the Queen's thoughts on the subject.)

Young Diana must not have been very educated about gems, however, as the biggest isn't necessarily the best in quality.
This is what I've always heard as well--and that Diana had indeed picked the largest on the tray. I've always thought, also, that she must not have been well informed about jewels. I wonder what else was on that tray?
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  #537  
Old 01-17-2008, 05:11 PM
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As about using friends, I have a very tacky experience. I once warned my friend that she needed to be careful, because someone might be using her. She was very shocked by my words. She said she could never imagined that people could use friends. Moreover, it was me, the first person who she suspected was using her. Because she thought using friend must be one thing in my mind, otherwise I could not come up with this thought. That was one of the main reason I was cut-off by one month. But the most horrible result was, since then I instilled a virus in my friends mind. Now she is always on guard of being used by people. I hoped we had never had that conversation.

But I am really curious of one thing. If a person enters into an relationship carring a thought from the beginning that he would never made a commitment, can we say this person is using his partner?
  #538  
Old 01-17-2008, 05:14 PM
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ysbel, I appreciat your comment 523.
The whole beauty of this forum is the reasoned and objective argument and discussion. (I'm a newbie.) I have my own very strong opinions, and yet respect the whole other side of the coin. I have deserted other forums because of the abuse and unreasonable chatter between posters. Great moderating. Though I guess that there is not much of it needed here... Thankyou.
  #539  
Old 01-17-2008, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Burrell said:
20 Very often relationships did that
21 in the Princess's world. She became infatuated,
22 obsessed with someone, and then grew tired of them.
I find it difficult to take anything Burrell says seriously. He's kind of creepy, and seemed obsessed and infatuated with Diana in a perverse kind of way. He probably projected those desires onto Diana, and then decided she was getting tired of him since his fantasies didn't seem to fit reality.

I always thought with Burrell: read between the lines -- he was no true friend to Diana.
  #540  
Old 01-17-2008, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhontella View Post
I find it difficult to take anything Burrell says seriously. He's kind of creepy, and seemed obsessed and infatuated with Diana in a perverse kind of way. He probably projected those desires onto Diana, and then decided she was getting tired of him since his fantasies didn't seem to fit reality.

I always thought with Burrell: read between the lines -- he was no true friend to Diana.
He is not true friend to Diana but he is very obessed about Diana which probably reduce his amount of reasoning matters he witnessed during Diana time.

After I read "They Royal Duty", my thought was that that book was written by a person more likely to be her fan.
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