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View Poll Results: When did your opinion of Diana start to change and why?
Morton book (1990) 25 9.80%
War of the Waleses (starting 1990) 20 7.84%
Squidgygate (1992) 12 4.71%
Hewitt affair (1993) 17 6.67%
Charles' interview (1994) 5 1.96%
Panorama interview (1995) 43 16.86%
Phone calls to Oliver Hoare (1994) 14 5.49%
Dodi al-Fayed (1997) 23 9.02%
Other (please explain) 96 37.65%
Voters: 255. You may not vote on this poll

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  #461  
Old 01-13-2008, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
I just read that on the inquest hearing's transcripts:

Rosa Monckton about Diana:
she said to me at the time was that this always seemed
5 to happen to her, that she got rejected by people when
6 she became very close to them. She felt that that had
7 happened in her relationship with her husband and with
8 him, and she could not understand the idea that she
9 could go out into the streets and people who did not
10 know her would love her and then, when people got to
11 know her, they did not love her. So she was very --
12 deeply, deeply upset and hurt.

So maybe she was on the right way after all - to finally figure out what went wrong between her and other people. I mean, once you realise there is a pattern there, that it's not just all against you for reasons they are responsible for or even guilty of, then it's quite possible to change. I feel now really sorry for her, honestly I do.
That is quite profound. And how terrified Diana must have been for people to get to know her well.
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  #462  
Old 01-13-2008, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TheTruth View Post
Yes, that sounds terrible ... I've always wondered if someone truly loved her for who she was.
Surely there were someone truly loved her for who she was. Actually, I think more than half of her lover were like that. But love someone doesn't mean can live with them. Along with Diana, except for who she was, there were a lot of other things. She was the most famous woman in the world and even in the history. There were a legend of paparazzis following her everywhere. I don't think there were any ordinary men can tolerate this for a long time.

Actually the same statement from Rosa can applied to Charles before he married. He also had a lot of girl friends. But none of them dare to marry him, even Camilla chose to marry Andrew. I think all these girls (all from high society) were sophisticate enough to know what it come with to be Charles' wife. Finally, they can only find the naive and unsophisticate girl who was willing to marry him. This girl took all the pressure to be his wife, but didn't get his love. What a pity.
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  #463  
Old 01-13-2008, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I don't think not having PR skills equals resenting a need to be PC, the two are totally different things.
Not totally different. There's probably some overlap though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
As for the suggestion over Camilla's involvement in any campaign, do you have any links or checkable evidence to support this?
Sigh, proof and links for everything I say? Ahh, aside from hearing about this for years from sources I can't recall, I do have Andersen's book, "After Diana" and his contacts and sources were thought good enough and extensive enough to be used by Operation Paget.

Excerpt: "Part of Bolland's job was to remake Camilla's image so the plan known as Operation PB (for Parker-Bowles) was hatched. Behind the scenes, Camilla had played a key role in implementing Operation PB. In May '97, she had asked Bolland to arrange a secret lunch at Highgrove with PM Tony Blair's chief image consultant, Peter Mandelson. With Camilla, Charles, and Bolland in attendance, Mandelson mapped out a strategy for the Prince of Wales to win back the hearts and minds of his people -- and for Camilla to make herself acceptable to them as Diana's replacement. "

As far as Camilla being capable of any type of cunning strategy -- well there's this: "The official explanation for the obvious royal snub (of not attending the actual marriage ceremony of Charles and Camilla) was that Her Majesty did not want to overshadow the happy couple at their decidedly low-key nuptials -- but that fooled no one. The Queen believes Camilla is a scheming and predatory woman. She blames Camilla for pursuing her son to the ends of the earth, ruining his marriage, driving Princess Diana mad, and nearly pulling down the monarchy in the process."

Then from Lady Elsa Bowker, "People often say that Camilla is such a sweet and uncomplicated woman, but all you have to do is look at how she plots, schemes -- the deception. She despised Diana in life, and I think even more so in death, because Diana was even more beloved for her kindness in death."

Anyway, I doubt that Camilla got where she is today by being a stoopid do-nothing -- but maybe I'm wrong.

I was going to say this is probably getting off-topic, but on further thought probably not since Operation PB was all about changing people's opinion about Camilla, and that was thought to be dependent on changing people's opinion about Diana.
  #464  
Old 01-13-2008, 07:19 PM
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Every adult person knows that Cinderella is a fairy tale, no such thing exists.

The world acted like perfect idiots over Prince Charles and Lady Diana, their fantasy was left unfulfilled by two ordinary human beings and people have yet to forgive and move on.

Prince Charles and Lady Diana never fell in love and I highly doubt that they ever grew to love each other, not in an adult and healthy way.

Grown people understand that a relationship takes work, real hard work and that alot of giving and compromising is required if that relationship is going to work in the end. Neither Prince Charles or Lady Diana were willing to do that, not really, because they did not feel those emotions for each other.

It has been clearly shown that neither one of them really wanted to get married to the other on their wedding day.

Just goes to show what you get when you try to live your life for the benefit of someone else other than yourself.
  #465  
Old 01-13-2008, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
..............Charles was adverse to 'as he said' making cosmetic changes to change his brand image as if he were 'a tube of toothpaste'. I never thought of the Prince of Wales as a tube of toothpaste but there you have it. That was his view of public relations and marketing.
Good old Charles, he has the right idea anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
I'm curious as to what you mean by this. I think Bolland's campaign was ultimately disastrous for Charles and I wasn't aware that Camilla was a part of it. Can you explain more?
The way I understand it is that Bolland's campaign worked great for awhile, as long as the target was restricted to Diana. But when the beast got out of his cage and started to include the queen's other children, then all of a sudden it was an official disaster, and he was replaced. It was also a disaster when Bolland retaliated with a vengeance against Prince Charles in some convoluted fairy tale he wrote about poor Charles. Still if contained, Bolland could be effective and I understand that Camilla still consults with him.
  #466  
Old 01-13-2008, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhontella View Post
Sigh, proof and links for everything I say? Ahh, aside from hearing about this for years from sources I can't recall, I do have Andersen's book, "After Diana" and his contacts and sources were thought good enough and extensive enough to be used by Operation Paget.
I don't recall operation Paget using any book extensively and as I have said, any book can only be it's authors second hand interpretation. Elsa Bowker is hardly going to say anything nice about Camilla, she was one of Diana's confidents. Of course Andersen's books have always been controversial and hotly disputed as to their accuracy by the people he is writing about.

It is not just you that is asked for links and proof, without links or proof, there is no way to check whether someone's memories are correct and the accuracy of any statement. Without supplying a link, anyone of us can make false claims against either party and the gulible might believe it to be true. Links and proof are essential when making allegations.
  #467  
Old 01-13-2008, 07:44 PM
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I'm would expect Camilla to be party to the discussions with the spin doctors. She had to know what they said and what their views were because it affected her; she had to do things in response and if I were her I would want to hear first hand what they had in mind and the reasons rather than getting it passed on to me through Charles or someone else. Charles particularly, because he seems to have little regard for PR and the press and may not tell me everthing I needed to hear.

There clearly was a need to improve Camilla's image and try and warm the public to the idea of Charles & Camilla as a couple, and it was fair to assume that engaging professionals to do it would be likely to speed up their acceptance. They'd be silly not to do it, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

To some people this might equate to plots, schemes and deception. I call it common sense.
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  #468  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
That is quite profound. And how terrified Diana must have been for people to get to know her well.
I think Diana had problems with relationships with other people generally.

I think she had problems with boundaries, as I think she was far too familiar with household servants, like Burrell, and other staff, like her protection officers, particularly Manakee, and people like Simmons who performed work for her and was thus only a quasi-friend. For the present I accept she wasn't having an affair with Manakee, but was just too familiar, and it was that over-familiarity that got him sacked.

She crossed invisible boundaries, but it's not that simple. She seems to have been aware the boundaries were there in some sense, because she knew she held the upper hand and could control the relationship and cut those people off by freezing them out, refusing to take their calls, or changing her phone number. She invited these people in and befriended them to a degree I think was quite inappropriate, lulling them into a false sense of security. By crossing these boundaries she was being selfish, I think, and I'm not entirely sure she wasn't knowingly taking advantage of the situation, doing it because she wanted playmates and knew she made the rules and could end it when they had ceased to amuse her because these people had no power.

It's complicated. Diana was very complicated. And maybe she behaved like that because she didn't have many real friends. Even with those who could be called real friends, it seems she didn't tell them everything. She compartmentalised people and parts of her life.

I could understand Diana finding it hard to sort out boundaries with people very early in the marriage but if she couldn't get on top of it after 15 years, and life experience had not enabled her by then to understand why certain relationships with equals (e.g. Khan) would not work out despite her very best efforts, I think Diana was destined to be lonely unless she took up with people like Dodi Fayed.

If she had the insight to be aware that though the general public who did not know her adored her but family and friends who really knew her rejected her, and she couldn't work out why, and she was hurt by it, I do pity her, because I don't think she was likely to do anything to help herself understand why and improve things. I think she would have needed professional help to fix this, not just chats to Rosa or her few other friends. They were not trained to help someone as complex and damaged as Diana.

Diana spoke on the Squidgygate tape about the Queen Mother often watching her with a look Diana found hard to describe but called a mixture of "interest and pity". I think that sums up what I feel about Diana, too: interest and pity.
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  #469  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:18 PM
cde cde is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhontella View Post
Good old Charles, he has the right idea anyway.


The way I understand it is that Bolland's campaign worked great for awhile, as long as the target was restricted to Diana. But when the beast got out of his cage and started to include the queen's other children, then all of a sudden it was an official disaster, and he was replaced. It was also a disaster when Bolland retaliated with a vengeance against Prince Charles in some convoluted fairy tale he wrote about poor Charles. Still if contained, Bolland could be effective and I understand that Camilla still consults with him.
Camilla stop consulting Bolland about a year after he stopped working for CH after some pressure from I believe, Charles.
  #470  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post

Interestingly enough I doubt the RF was behind that move, they had done what they wanted right after the divorce, as Raine Spencer said at the inquest:

A. "I felt sorry for her [that is Diana]. I think she had
1 probably not realised that once she had divorced,
2 the Royal Family would shut her out. In addition to
3 this, her sister, Lady Jane Fellowes, had told her that
4 because of her husband's position, she could not see her
5 anymore and her brother Charles had withdrawn an offer
6 of a cottage on his estate because he did not want
7 the press intrusion that would result."

IMHO those who had come to know her simply waited after the divorce how her public image would turn out. Diana had made such terrible (and terribly stupid) mistakes while married, so one would have been right to wonder if it was possible for her to be more cautious in the future. But if she had been able to show that she could survive being just "Diana, princess of Wales" instead of HRH The Princess, I guess some doors would have opened up again. As it was, she made the mistake to trust Dodi and his driver and thus left the stage, leaving only her reputation - for the wolves.

Wolves treat their family members better.

Honestly, the more I read about this, the more I think that the Spencer family is responsible for a lot of the problems Diana had. They didn't seem to be there for her during her courtship and engagement, they were too focused on getting her married off the Prince of Wales; they didn't seem to be there for her when her marriage started to go bad and she started to have all these emotional problems; and when she'd left the royal family, it doesn't sound as though they fell over themselves to be supportive at the time she was so desperately vulnerable.

And then Charles Spencer gets up on his hind legs at her funeral and prates on with all this great-sounding stuff about her blood family and how they, unlike the royal family, are the ones who really cared. Doesn't sound much like it to me. It's so sad that the family member she was closest to (at least, that's how it appears) near the end of her life was Raine.
  #471  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Wolves treat their family members better.

Honestly, the more I read about this, the more I think that the Spencer family is responsible for a lot of the problems Diana had. They didn't seem to be there for her during her courtship and engagement, they were too focused on getting her married off the Prince of Wales; they didn't seem to be there for her when her marriage started to go bad and she started to have all these emotional problems; and when she'd left the royal family, it doesn't sound as though they fell over themselves to be supportive at the time she was so desperately vulnerable.

And then Charles Spencer gets up on his hind legs at her funeral and prates on with all this great-sounding stuff about her blood family and how they, unlike the royal family, are the ones who really cared. Doesn't sound much like it to me. It's so sad that the family member she was closest to (at least, that's how it appears) near the end of her life was Raine.
Good observation, I agree. The saying goes that one marries the one that reminds them the most of good old mom or dad or brother or sister -- someone that was closest to them. The results of Diana's marriage to Charles does not reflect well on her family.

And to top it off, Charles Spencer demanded the return of the Spencer tiara. Obscene!
  #472  
Old 01-13-2008, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
She seems to have been aware the boundaries were there in some sense, because she knew she held the upper hand and could control the relationship and cut those people off by freezing them out, refusing to take their calls, or changing her phone number. She invited these people in and befriended them to a degree I think was quite inappropriate, lulling them into a false sense of security. By crossing these boundaries she was being selfish, I think, and I'm not entirely sure she wasn't knowingly taking advantage of the situation, doing it because she wanted playmates and knew she made the rules and could end it when they had ceased to amuse her because these people had no power.

They were not trained to help someone as complex and damaged as Diana.
Your comments about power and who had the upper hand because of this power could apply to anybody -- not just Diana. The difference with Diana was that she had the resources to check up on all her so-called friends to know how true they were as friends. She was also in a pressure-cooker of intrigue and adverse influence, and these friendships were vulnerable to others who were eager to influence these friends to betray Diana.

It could be that any normal, non-damaged person, any one of us, would have reacted the same as Diana, under identical circumstances. Try to consider for a moment the amount of provacation that Diana must have endured every single day.
  #473  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:02 PM
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Well, Zhontella, to be fair, that tiara is rightfully his as he is the Earl of Spencer--but yes, he acted self-righteous and refused to accept any blame on his part. Her family had issues, and I don't agree with how her sister reacted to the divorce--but, could there be a little more to it? Perhaps her family knew how she could be and just didn't want to deal with it? If that is the case, I do feel sorry for her because perhaps if they had offered her a little more comfort after the divorce she wouldn't have made such a horrid mistake by taking up with Dodi Al-Fayed and thusly, avoiding a painful death....
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  #474  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
She crossed invisible boundaries, but it's not that simple. She seems to have been aware the boundaries were there in some sense, because she knew she held the upper hand and could control the relationship and cut those people off by freezing them out, refusing to take their calls, or changing her phone number. She invited these people in and befriended them to a degree I think was quite inappropriate, lulling them into a false sense of security. By crossing these boundaries she was being selfish, I think, and I'm not entirely sure she wasn't knowingly taking advantage of the situation, doing it because she wanted playmates and knew she made the rules and could end it when they had ceased to amuse her because these people had no power.
Actually, Diana would suddenly cut off contact not only to servants, but also equal person, like Sarah. So I don't think, the difference in status played a substantial role here.
  #475  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jcbcode99 View Post
Well, Zhontella, to be fair, that tiara is rightfully his as he is the Earl of Spencer--but yes, he acted self-righteous and refused to accept any blame on his part. Her family had issues, and I don't agree with how her sister reacted to the divorce--but, could there be a little more to it? Perhaps her family knew how she could be and just didn't want to deal with it? If that is the case, I do feel sorry for her because perhaps if they had offered her a little more comfort after the divorce she wouldn't have made such a horrid mistake by taking up with Dodi Al-Fayed and thusly, avoiding a painful death....
Well Jcbcode, timing is everything. Did Earl Spencer ask for the Spencer tiara back after their dad died or later, after Diana separated from Charles or after she lost her HRH?

Perhaps her family did know how she could be, but unless there is some kind of severe organic brain damage, the family of origin usually determines how one can be.

I'm not too sure that Dodi Fayed = painful death. I think a loss of her royal protection, for whatever reason, led to her painful death.
  #476  
Old 01-13-2008, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by zhontella View Post
Well Jcbcode, timing is everything. Did Earl Spencer ask for the Spencer tiara back after their dad died or later, after Diana separated from Charles or after she lost her HRH?

Perhaps her family did know how she could be, but unless there is some kind of severe organic brain damage, the family of origin usually determines how one can be.

I'm not too sure that Dodi Fayed = painful death. I think a loss of her royal protection, for whatever reason, led to her painful death.
Diana gave up her royal protection willingly because she thought she was being spied upon; to say that a loss of her royal protection ...led to her painful death is misleading and implies that the Royal Family forced her to give it up. Diana made that decision. As I recall, the Queen offered to to continue to provide that protection--and HM also paid the costs of Diana's office after the divorce (about 600.000 pounds yearly as I remember--I might be wrong).

Regarding the Spencer tiara, once she lost her HRH and her standing, she wouldn't have been attending tiara events anyway, right? She wouldn't have attended any State Visits, she wouldn't have represented the UK on State Visits, etc...She may have attended the wedding of a Royal, but if that was the case, she still had the Lover's Knot on a lifetime loan so she would have had a tiara to wear anyway--but at Royal Weddings those Royals who attend are representing their countries and families so Diana would not have been the only British Royal there and therefore protocal probably would have dictated that she not wear a tiara......perhaps someone more educated in tiara protocal can educate me, but irregardless, the tiara belonged to the Earl Spencer. Incidentally, the tiara always remained with the Earl Spencer even during Diana's marriage and she had to ask permission to use it each time she wanted it--so it was not hers to take, and she never really had full use of it. Estates and jewels stay in the family.
Besides, The Early Spencer's wife, Countess Spencer, has a right to wear the tiara, also. It isn't just Diana's--in fact, this is a recurring theme. There was some controversy a while back when it was suggested the Camilla had worn a emerald and diamond PoW brooch that had been worn by Diana. The two brooches were very similar, but not the same, but there were people who were just up in arms about it. What some fail to remember is that these are family pieces that pass through generations (these two brooches belonged to Queen Alexandra) and if Camilla wants to wear the same brooch as Diana, well, that's her right as the current Princess of Wales....If the current Countess Spencer wears the Spencer Tiara, well, that's her right also.
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  #477  
Old 01-14-2008, 01:20 AM
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The Queen allowed the Princess to retain her precedance at court on State and national occassions.
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  #478  
Old 01-14-2008, 01:37 AM
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But, she would still have had to asked to borrow the Spencer tiara and to return it afterwards....
and, just because her brother asked for it back did not mean she couldn't borrow it again, did it?
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  #479  
Old 01-14-2008, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by zhontella View Post
Your comments about power and who had the upper hand because of this power could apply to anybody -- not just Diana. The difference with Diana was that she had the resources to check up on all her so-called friends to know how true they were as friends. She was also in a pressure-cooker of intrigue and adverse influence, and these friendships were vulnerable to others who were eager to influence these friends to betray Diana.
I suppose the comments in that paragraph could apply to anybody....anybody who had an inappropriately familiar relationship with servants or staff.....but I was talking about Diana.

Quote:
It could be that any normal, non-damaged person, any one of us, would have reacted the same as Diana, under identical circumstances. Try to consider for a moment the amount of provacation that Diana must have endured every single day.
These sentences do not seem responsive to my post. If you want me to consider any provocation you will have to be more specific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anbrida
Actually, Diana would suddenly cut off contact not only to servants, but also equal person, like Sarah. So I don't think, the difference in status played a substantial role here.
I agree. She certainly did cut off social equals, like Sarah. As I said at the start of the post to which you were responding, I think Diana had problems with relationships and other people generally.
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  #480  
Old 01-14-2008, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by zhontella View Post
Well Jcbcode, timing is everything. Did Earl Spencer ask for the Spencer tiara back after their dad died or later, after Diana separated from Charles or after she lost her HRH?
.
No, Diana never had possession of the Spencer Tiara. It was always kept in a bank vault in London, whenever Diana wanted to wear the tiara it had to be sent for, after whatever event she wore it to, it was returned to the bank vault.
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