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View Poll Results: When did your opinion of Diana start to change and why?
Morton book (1990) 25 9.80%
War of the Waleses (starting 1990) 20 7.84%
Squidgygate (1992) 12 4.71%
Hewitt affair (1993) 17 6.67%
Charles' interview (1994) 5 1.96%
Panorama interview (1995) 43 16.86%
Phone calls to Oliver Hoare (1994) 14 5.49%
Dodi al-Fayed (1997) 23 9.02%
Other (please explain) 96 37.65%
Voters: 255. You may not vote on this poll

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  #321  
Old 01-05-2008, 07:31 PM
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See, I think the ability to forgive is a good thing. That doesn't mean you have to forget, and if the memories are too bad you just might to distance yourself from a person, but I think things like hatred or revenge just mainly hurt yourself.
I think lilytornado only people that are mature can forgive. I truly believe what you have said to be the truth about forgiving a person and lovinging yourself. Princess Diana's son are at that point of mature forgiveness.

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I hope if Diana would have been alive, she would have been able to do the same thing.
I think she would have forgiven eventually if she had found happiness in love and a good job role. What is tragic is that we will never really know what Princess Diana would have accomplished these last 10 years.
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  #322  
Old 01-06-2008, 12:02 AM
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Okay, that's your view on it according to your own way to "play the game". In my experience this is what love is all about - if you'd listen in on phone calls between my husband and me when he is away on business trips, you'd hear the same from us... maybe our game is different from yours but IMHO Charles' and Camilla's game is quite similar to ours....

As for the truth: I think after seeing Charles and Camilla for two years now, 18 years after this phone call and two years after he put "that ring" on her finger, I believe they still adore each other and she still tells him what he wants to hear.

While "poor dumb little" Diana could have done the same and still be his princess: be interested in his work, tell him that he is wonderful, talk him into sleep, miss him when he is gone and look forward to seeing him again - feel that and communicate that to your darling and he will be happy (at least my husband is and Charles does not seem to be unhappy either...)

I think that Diana did not much after she had married Charles to make him happy. Even that famous birthday "gift" of her dance at the Royal opera was something she must have known would annoy him but present her as a beautiful and talented lady in public. If she really had loved him she would have tried to understand the pressures of his life and gone about finding her own place there - even if it meant to wait for some months till he had more control over his appointments and could make time for her. Her marriage to him in terms of Royal pre-planning was rather sudden, so of course he was fully booked for the next months - including time he wanted to spent with his friends or playing polo or going hunting or visiting a gardening show. If it is true what has been written, that she thought he should cancel these plans in order to be with her, then she did not understand that much about men. Married men are normally pretty willing to take their bride with them to their private pursuits or present them to their friends. But they were obviously very different in what "fun" meant to them. And if Diana had not been impressed by his future crown so much, she would have seen that he was not the guy for her....
Jo---I LOVED your post. Truly--and I believe that it can apply to all married couples as the secret of success. Pay attention to your spouse, let him/her know you love and adore him, and don't be afraid to show it. Also, be understanding of his/her career and the demands of it. Diana was selfish about Charles and simply wanted all of his attention--just like she wanted all of her father's attention and hated Raine because of it. She liked attention, wanted to be the center--there's nothing wrong with that--we can all be like that--but we also need to understand that we can't be the center of attention all the time.
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  #323  
Old 01-06-2008, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jcbcode99 View Post
Jo---I LOVED your post. Truly--and I believe that it can apply to all married couples as the secret of success. Pay attention to your spouse, let him/her know you love and adore him, and don't be afraid to show it. Also, be understanding of his/her career and the demands of it.
Yes I agree, Jo wrote a lovely post about how to treat ones spouse. I would also hope that Charles ~"paid attention to Diana, let her know she was loved and adored and wasn't afraid to show it. Also, hopefully he was understanding of her career (learning how to be a Princess of Wales) and the demands of it"~.
  #324  
Old 01-06-2008, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jcbcode99 View Post
She liked attention, wanted to be the center--there's nothing wrong with that--we can all be like that--but we also need to understand that we can't be the center of attention all the time.
Yeah, exactly. That was the trouble with Diana. She lacked balance and any sense of boundaries. It was all or nothing, and if she didn't get "all" then her sense of entitlement was betrayed. That's the major problem with people who don't love themselves -- they seek in others what they need to give to themselves. If you love yourself, you do not need to be validated by anyone. If you love yourself and you give love to others, love is what you get. Action and reaction. Law of attraction. I believe that Diana gave love to her boys, and that's why she received so much love from them. Look how Prince Harry put it, "She was the best mother in the world." Harry adored her, and she adored him. Diana thought she could "make" Charles love her if she made him jealous with all the media attention around her, or if she yelled at him enough, or slammed enough doors. But she was giving him anything but love. She gave him yelling, slamming, and spite. Why in the world would he respond to her with love? Naturally, he did not. No one would. If you think about it, it's physics. You don't get love from spite, nor from jealousy and anger. You only get love from love.
  #325  
Old 01-06-2008, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
I think lilytornado only people that are mature can forgive. I truly believe what you have said to be the truth about forgiving a person and lovinging yourself. Princess Diana's son are at that point of mature forgiveness.
There are many things that cannot be forgiven and have no bearing on whether you 'love yourself' or not. Maturity has very little to do with it, many 4 years 'forgive' and many 144 year olds do not. I can't quite see James Bulgers parents standing up and saying we forgive his torturers, but then I think a lot of the belief in forgiveness comes from youngsters or those that have little to forgive!

For all we know William and Harry realised from an early age that their mother made the problems within the marriage, and therefore they found nothing to forgive.
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Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio View Post
EDITED....... That's the major problem with people who don't love themselves -- they seek in others what they need to give to themselves. If you love yourself, you do not need to be validated by anyone. If you love yourself and you give love to others, love is what you get.....EDITED.... Diana thought she could "make" Charles love her if she made him jealous with all the media attention around her, or if she yelled at him enough, or slammed enough doors. But she was giving him anything but love. She gave him yelling, slamming, and spite. Why in the world would he respond to her with love? Naturally, he did not. No one would. If you think about it, it's physics. You don't get love from spite, nor from jealousy and anger. You only get love from love.
The trouble with many people is that they 'love' themselves too much, far from needing 'validation' from others, they believe the other person has the problem, not them, they are after all perfect. Many men and women who are regularly beaten by their partners, despite the awful injuries, will return to their partner because 'they love him/her'. Many who live with control freaks, 'love' their partner. Men and women involved in this type of situation believe, absolutely that their partner also loves them, so no, you don't only get love from love.

That was Diana's problem, IMO, that is why she couldn't understand why the Royal Family didn't think she was the best thing since sliced bread! Her parents fought over her, her father 'won' her and gave in to her demands, to avoid a scene, the nannies were driven out (her father protected her, not them), the general public fell for the 'perfect princess' and when that crown started to slip, she was able to garner the sympathy vote from many with her portrayal of the 'victim'.
  #326  
Old 01-06-2008, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
-SNIPPED- Her parents fought over her, her father 'won' her and gave in to her demands, to avoid a scene, the nannies were driven out (her father protected her, not them), the general public fell for the 'perfect princess' and when that crown started to slip, she was able to garner the sympathy vote from many with her portrayal of the 'victim'.
(my bolding)

I was wondering if someone else than me thinks that if her mother had 'won', Diana would have had a different behaviour ?
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  #327  
Old 01-06-2008, 11:26 AM
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I was wondering if someone else than me think that if her mother had 'won', Diana would have had a different behaviour ?
Yes I also believe that if Frances had 'won' custody, Diana could have been a different person.
  #328  
Old 01-06-2008, 11:30 AM
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I would also hope that Charles ~"paid attention to Diana, let her know she was loved and adored and wasn't afraid to show it. Also, hopefully he was understanding of her career (learning how to be a Princess of Wales) and the demands of it"~.
Charles had an ego backed by an institution with however many years of history. Diana could not have been PW without Charles, she failed to understand her role. If she wanted to be PW so badly, she should have remembered that Charles was her lifeline.
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  #329  
Old 01-06-2008, 11:57 AM
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Yes I also believe that if Frances had 'won' custody, Diana could have been a different person.
IMO, the lack of a "female presence" (since her reationship with Raine was terrible, I can only think of her mother in that role) played a major part in her behaviour and personality. Apart from Babara Cartland's books and the vague memories of her parents living together, she didn't know what to expect of living a married life, having children, etc.
There's also her mother's personality. She seemed more strict with her children but not insensitive. If you look closely, it strikes me the difference between Sarah and Jane's behaviour compared to Charles and Diana's. I think the way they have been raised determines many aspects of their personality.
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  #330  
Old 01-06-2008, 01:53 PM
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Grandmother Fermoy or whatever her name is took care of that situation for Diana by testifying against her own daughter. That has got to be one of the most wicked, evil human beings I have read about in a long time. I hope her life was as miserable and painful for her as it appears to be from reading about her.

She was more concerned about the title "Earl" and her own connection to the RF than her own flesh and blood. Sickening to me.
  #331  
Old 01-06-2008, 02:38 PM
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Grandmother Fermoy or whatever her name is took care of that situation for Diana by testifying against her own daughter. That has got to be one of the most wicked, evil human beings I have read about in a long time. I hope her life was as miserable and painful for her as it appears to be from reading about her.

She was more concerned about the title "Earl" and her own connection to the RF than her own flesh and blood. Sickening to me.
Yes, that disgusts me as well. I don't remember what were Lady Fremoy's arguments against her own daughter. Wasn't it something about Frances drinking problems or whatever ? Anyway, she did alot of damage to the family and the children were the first victims.
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  #332  
Old 01-06-2008, 03:19 PM
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Frances fainted in court after Lady Fermoy's testimony. Fermoy was nothing but a social climber.
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  #333  
Old 01-06-2008, 03:46 PM
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I"ve read that, too. What a female role model she must have been! And,Lady Fermoy and the Queen Mum did push the marriage....
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  #334  
Old 01-06-2008, 05:12 PM
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I"ve read that, too. What a female role model she must have been! And,Lady Fermoy and the Queen Mum did push the marriage....

Absolutely ! How come someone can be so powerful over others ?! I've never liked Lady Fermoy and never will. I think she wanted to get revenge and accomplish everything she couldn't do in her life through her grandchildren and in particular through Diana. When she saw the occasion, she jumped on it and didn't let go.
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  #335  
Old 01-06-2008, 05:49 PM
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I"ve read that, too. What a female role model she must have been! And,Lady Fermoy and the Queen Mum did push the marriage....
Diana's grandmother/father PUSHING the marriage, Charle's father PUSHING the marriage along with the Queen Mother, seems alot of powerful people wanted that marriage to take place.

TOO BAD, Prince Charles and Lady Diana were NOT numbered among them. Both it seems DID NOT want to go through with it, but felt they had no choice.

Think about that, you are going to get married, to someone you REALLY don't want to marry and you feel VERY UNEASY about getting married to, but feel you have no choice, WHAT A PATHETIC POSITION OF PERSONAL POWERLESSNESS to have to experience.

I do hold Charles and Diana accountable though, they were ADULTS and both should have had the backbone to say NO and mean it.

So what if Charles never married and had children, he had a sister that had already had children and both his brothers wound up with children of their own. It is not like the Monarchy would have died with him.
  #336  
Old 01-06-2008, 10:43 PM
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yes, the only reason that probably theQueen Mother wanted iane was to procreate the future King, once done they didn't need her anymore. She was blue blood, from good family and good looking,, she was too young at the time to see more clear and may be bllind by Charles or the fantasy of being a princess. she had a trouble childhood, everything too sad, but I don't think she was clever enought to choos the other boyfriends
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  #337  
Old 01-07-2008, 01:36 AM
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TOO BAD, Prince Charles and Lady Diana were NOT numbered among them. Both it seems DID NOT want to go through with it, but felt they had no choice.
"He said, 'Will you marry me?' I laughed. I remember thinking: 'You know, this is a joke'. So I said: 'Yeah, OK' and laughed. And he was deadly serious. He said: 'Do you realize that one day you will be Queen?' A voice said to me inside: 'You won't be Queen but you will have a tough role.' So I thought to myself: 'OK', so I said yes."

That is, of course, a quote from Diana on the Settelen tapes. Diana also spoke about the engagement interview:

Diana: "I was brought up in the sense that, you know, when you got engaged to someone, you love them. And the most extraordinary thing is, we had this ghastly interview the day we announced our engagement. And this ridiculous ITN man said, 'Are you in love?' Oh, what a thick question! So I said, 'Yes, of course we are' in this sort of fat Sloane Ranger that I was. And Charles turned round and said "Whatever 'in love' means". That threw me completely. I thought, what a strange question."

Settelen: "And what a strange reply!"

Diana: "Oh God! Absolutely traumatised me".

Settelen: "And did you ask him about it?"

Diana: "No, I didn't dare".

Settlen: "Were you frightened?"

Diana: "Must've been, yeah ... We met 13 times before we got married."

If this does truly represent they way her mind was working when Charles proposed and at the time of the engagement interview, it's a little frightening for she doesn't seem to have had a clue what saying "Yes" would really mean for her. I don't think she was giving informed consent. As well as that, she hardly knew Charles and couldn't bring herself to ask him about the reply that had "traumatized" her.

Charles asked her to think about it but she wouldn't wait. She certainly should have, because she seems to have taken it all too lightly at that time, and when it finally did sink in and she wanted out, her face was on the teatowels and she was having thoughts about slaughtered lambs.

It's a real shame she didn't think on it a lot harder and longer. And of course it's a real shame that Charles didn't insist that she think about it a lot harder and longer. He should have insisted she not give her final answer until he returned from his overseas trip. He was the older one and knew what his proposal was asking of her, even if she didn't, and her giggling and light-hearted attitude should have put him on notice that maybe she was not giving informed consent. And if he had a closer relationship to his mother maybe the Queen would have insisted Diana think about it longer. But if he had such a close relationship with the Queen and could have discussed his thoughts and concerns with her maybe he would never have proposed.

So many variables. So much heartache.
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  #338  
Old 01-07-2008, 01:57 AM
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That Settlen interview was very interesting! The way Diana just opened up and told her whole life story to this man she had just met--it boggles the mind and shows how needy she was for attention. The thing that sticks in my mind from that interview was when she was speaking with Charles alone in the stables and told him that she had watched him at the funeral of Lord Mountbatten and thought that he looked so alone and needed someone to be with him--and then "he lept upon me, kissing me" and she was all like, EWWWW--people don't really behave like this......

To me--this event, from the mouth of Diana herself, tells me that Charles did care for her and was attracted to her and that perhaps there was more to the romance than we really know------did they really only meet 13 times before they got married if he was "leaping all over her" to kiss her?
Also, she talked about how they rarely had sex---I mean, really PERSONAL stuff that I'm not sure I really believed--anyone else?? I mean, it was just tooooo convenient--first day they meet, she opens up about everything--dad, mom, stepmom, Charles, etc.....--too contrived--but really also interesting--
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  #339  
Old 01-07-2008, 02:06 AM
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"He said, 'Will you marry me?' I laughed. I remember thinking: 'You know, this is a joke'. So I said: 'Yeah, OK' and laughed...
THANK YOU for your post and everything it illustrates, it brings out some very important points I think.

I am married and very happily. When we agreed that we wanted to be married, we knew we were in love, we were also older and spent months discussing real life stuff, families, values, wants, desires, etc and making sure ours would blend adequately.

I didn't need to question what "in love" means, I knew and IF my mate had of made such a comment just to me in private, much less in public, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO MARRIAGE, at least for several more years.

I guess I just don't understand this "for country" thing. I would NOT sacrifice my ONE life and chance for real, true personal happiness for anyone or anything. Maybe if I was like a cat and had nine lifes, I would be more generous? But with just one, NO.
  #340  
Old 01-07-2008, 02:28 AM
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That Settlen interview was very interesting!
Last week I found the NBC audio transcripts and downloaded part of it. I usually stay away from such things because I only have dial-up and it's very slow but I discovered audio downloads are not as bad as video. After half an hour the download was interrupted by an incoming call but to my delight I discovered that the whole thing was not wiped, so I still have some and I'll go back late one night and download the rest.

I find it fascinating to hear Diana's voice saying all those things. It's sad, too, because you realise that vibrant, giggling person you're listening to is dead now and shouldn't be.

I also found the transcript of the Larry King Live interview with Andrew Morton in March 2004 in which he talks about the making of the NBC documentary: "Princess Diana: The Secret Tapes". Robert Lacey, Kitty Kelley and Hugo Vickers join in to form a panel to comment. I found it interesting and others might too: CNN.com - Transcripts
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