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  #441  
Old 05-03-2018, 01:27 PM
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That's not what the experts say.

"If you go back to the time of Charlemagne, forty generations or so, you should get to a generation of a trillion ancestors. That’s about two thousand times more people than existed on Earth when Charlemagne was alive."

Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty – Phenomena

The intermarriage between royalty and nobility for 1,000 years could not possibly account for 500 million "missing" ancestors.

See also "You’re Descended from Royalty and So Is Everybody Else" by Dr. Adam Rutherford:

Nefertiti, Confucius, Genghis Khan, and Charlemagne Are Almost Certainly on Your Family Tree
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  #442  
Old 05-03-2018, 02:09 PM
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One thing to remember too and its a big factor is that there was a period in which the plague wiped out quite a bit of the population throughout Europe and Great Britain. The Black Death is estimated to have killed 30–60% of Europe's total population. In total, the plague may have reduced the world population from an estimated 450 million down to 350–375 million in the 14th century.

Its logical to believe that during that time, it was the upper crust, the nobility and the royal families that were able to isolate and disassociate themselves from the general hoi polloi, have a healthier diet and sanitation measures to be able to survive and procreate down through the years.
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  #443  
Old 05-03-2018, 02:52 PM
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And while medieval men may have restricted their marriage partners to women from the same class, that didn't always apply to their sexual partners. To use a more recent example, Charles II left no legitimate children but through his acknowledged illegitimate children he has thousands of descendants living today.
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  #444  
Old 05-03-2018, 03:15 PM
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I'm familiar with what the experts say. And understand what they're saying. I just do not agree with the conclusions.

One interesting thing would be to use the dna samples of the 12 million or people that have gotten tested over the past decade or so and see how many of them are actually descended from Charlemagne.

I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.
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  #445  
Old 05-03-2018, 03:21 PM
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I had my DNA tested and I'm 18% British. So, I'm a possible descendant of the same people Diana, Princess of Wales is.

We also have to take into consideration that there is a line of descent in Diana's bloodline that stems from the USA. Diana is the 2nd cousin 1 time removed to Oliver Platt best known for his role currently in the US drama Chicago Med. Not all Diana's ancestry stems from the English aristocracy.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Work-16
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  #446  
Old 05-03-2018, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tihkon2 View Post
One interesting thing would be to use the dna samples of the 12 million or people that have gotten tested over the past decade or so and see how many of them are actually descended from Charlemagne.
You can be a descendant of Charlemagne and still not have any of his DNA.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...dam-rutherford
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  #447  
Old 05-03-2018, 03:26 PM
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Anyhow...thanks for posting all the interesting lines of Diana over the past month. Cool to see a lot of the lines of descent actually shown .
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  #448  
Old 05-12-2018, 09:48 PM
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James Morgan and Margery Hill - Diana was the 10th cousin of ::

(Don't know if she watched any of these....the score kind of matches her own life, post divorce.)
[video]
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  #449  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:30 PM
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The 15th Althorp Literary Festival took place on the estate at the end of August.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/95918/join-...erary-festival
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  #450  
Old 10-04-2018, 01:31 PM
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New details on Diana's Armenian/Indian ancestor Eliza Kewark:

https://vita-brevis.org/2018/09/furt...cess-of-wales/
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  #451  
Old 11-02-2018, 08:25 PM
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A portrait of Lady Georgiana, Lady Henrietta, and George Spencer, Viscount Althorp in 1774
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ang...132615751.html
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  #452  
Old 11-28-2018, 02:22 PM
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I have tried to use the Genealogics Royal genealogy calculator to trace different relationships; very often, it is unreliable because the calculations either never show up or they take 5-10 minutes to load.
With that in mind, I have some genealogy questions.
1) Is Diana related to Martha Washington, through her marriage to Daniel Parke-Custis? As well as Robert E. Lee? (This is regarding her Southern US side)
I also want to know if Diana is related to the following people or royal houses:
2) Lucrezia Borgia (there are websites which say she is, but I’ve done extensive research to try to find an ancestry chart that ties these two women together—I found only one chart, although it was very complicated and numbered. Yet, it still did not give me an exact answer—the descendant in question never has a number in the chart; plus, the line is ascending in order—I always believe, because Diana was an aristocrat, that she could have multiple ancestry lines/ties to all of the Catholic royals of now and yesteryear). The chart also showed Lucrezia is related to D through a brother she had. But, is she related to D through Ercole d’Este (her son)?
3) Mary Kittamaquund, the Native American married to Giles Brent? Or any of her children?
4) This is an extensive question that may seem complicated. I read that Italian royal pretenders (specifically, the Dukes of Mantua—through Margaret Paleologa who married a Gonzaga) may have Byzantine descent; as well as the Russian royals (through Catherine The Great, although I could be wrong). Is Margaret related to D? As well as Constantin XI, the last Byzantine emperor to D too? Although, I believe either Margaret or Constantin could be related to the Romanovs, which in turn could mean they are related to D or Prince Philip (off the strength of his Byzantine and Russian ancestry). But I don’t know if any of this is true.
5) Is Diana related to any of the heads and/or pretenders of the Duchy of Anhalt/Ascania? I know that the Queen is not related to the Anhalt side at all.
6) Is Diana related to the famous Rothschild family?
7) This is more of a general question: How has it been proven that D is related to every single European royal house that the Queen is not? As well as D being related to most of the British peers/lords/aristocracy?
8) Because the Queen is related to mostly non-practicing Catholic royals herself, are there many royals Diana is related to that the Queen isn’t? Catholic or any other religion?
9) This is my last question: Is Diana related to Stephanie Beauharnais (who was adopted by Napoleon I) and/or Stéphanie’s “rival”, Josephine Tascher-Pagerie? I know Josephine was from Martinique; this fact is especially important because, as a black man, it would be a very unique fact that Diana could possibly have African or Caribbean bloodlines. And especially because I am Bermudian-American and love British royal genealogy. This also goes hand in hand with the fact that Diana (I personally feel) was slightly “Bajan” (as far as having Barbados ancestry).

I’m very sorry for having so many questions! It’s because of the Genealogics calculator, and the questions are things I specifically couldn’t find out myself—for example, I’ve Googled each question in multiple ways, and could not find any mention/answer to any of them. So, I came here.
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  #453  
Old 11-28-2018, 02:29 PM
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As far as Diana's American ancestry, have you looked into the family of Frances Ellen Work? She was Diana's great grandmother and an American heiress and socialite. This might fill in a few blanks for you.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Work-16
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  #454  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:29 PM
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I knew already the story of Frances being disinherited if she married a royal—because her father strongly disliked the royal family. And that Diana is 1/8 American.
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  #455  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:37 PM
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A LOT of Frances’ ancestors are not listed on Wikitree. I heavily understand people may not have kept records during that time.
I didn’t know where to look for the missing links to the chains I was in, in terms of D’s ancestry.
Although, I took the concept of mtDNA and traced ancestry through distant great-grandmothers of Frances. And discovered most of her distant g-g’s aren’t listed.
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  #456  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
I have tried to use the Genealogics Royal genealogy calculator to trace different relationships; very often, it is unreliable because the calculations either never show up or they take 5-10 minutes to load.
With that in mind, I have some genealogy questions.
1) Is Diana related to Martha Washington, through her marriage to Daniel Parke-Custis?

No, but she was related to George Washington. Sulgrave Manor, the ancestral home of the Washingtons, isn't far from Althorp and both the Spencers and the Washingtons descended from Robert Kitson, who lived in the late 15th/early 16th centuries.

Quote:
As well as Robert E. Lee? (This is regarding her Southern US side)
Diana's American ancestors weren't related to Robert E. Lee. But as with George Washington they are distantly related through common English ancestors.

The Queen is more closely related to both Washington and Lee, through the Queen Mother whose ancestor Mary (Warner) Smith of Virginia was the sister of Mildred (Warner) Washington (George's grandmother) and the niece of Sarah (Warner) Townley (3x great-grandmother of Robert E. Lee). This relationship was noted by the American press when the Queen Mother became Queen Consort in 1936.

Quote:
I also want to know if Diana is related to the following people or royal houses:
2) Lucrezia Borgia (there are websites which say she is, but I’ve done extensive research to try to find an ancestry chart that ties these two women together—I found only one chart, although it was very complicated and numbered. Yet, it still did not give me an exact answer—the descendant in question never has a number in the chart; plus, the line is ascending in order—I always believe, because Diana was an aristocrat, that she could have multiple ancestry lines/ties to all of the Catholic royals of now and yesteryear). The chart also showed Lucrezia is related to D through a brother she had. But, is she related to D through Ercole d’Este (her son)?
Lucrezia Borgia was related to Diana but only by marriage. Her second husband Alfonso d'Aragona Duke of Bisceglia and her third husband Alfonso d'Este Duke of Ferrara were both first cousins of Diana's ancestor Charlotte of Naples wife of Guy Count of Laval.

Quote:
3) Mary Kittamaquund, the Native American married to Giles Brent? Or any of her children?
Giles Brent was a descendant of Edward III, so yes Diana was distantly related to him. But the Queen is more closely related through Giles's great-grandfather Sir Fulke Greville who was also an ancestor of the Queen Mother.


Quote:
4) This is an extensive question that may seem complicated. I read that Italian royal pretenders (specifically, the Dukes of Mantua—through Margaret Paleologa who married a Gonzaga) may have Byzantine descent; as well as the Russian royals (through Catherine The Great, although I could be wrong). Is Margaret related to D?
Yes, Margaret was a first cousin (on her mother's side) of Francoise d'Alencon wife of Charles de Bourbon, Duke of Vendome, and grandmother of King Henry IV of France. Henry's daughter Henrietta Maria married King Charles I and was the mother of Diana's ancestors Charles II and James II.

Margaret is also related more distantly to Queen Elizabeth. All the European royal families descend from the Byzantine Emperors. For example, Queen Philippa wife of Edward III was the 4x great-granddaughter of Theodore I Komnenos Laskaris, Emperor in Nicaea from 1204-1222.

Quote:
As well as Constantin XI, the last Byzantine emperor to D too? Although, I believe either Margaret or Constantin could be related to the Romanovs, which in turn could mean they are related to D or Prince Philip (off the strength of his Byzantine and Russian ancestry). But I don’t know if any of this is true.
Yes, all of Europe's royal families including Diana are distantly related to Constantine XI, the last Byzantine Emperor. The Byzantine royal family intermarried with other European royal families.

Quote:
5) Is Diana related to any of the heads and/or pretenders of the Duchy of Anhalt/Ascania? I know that the Queen is not related to the Anhalt side at all.

The Queen descends from the Anhalts many times over. For example, her ancestor Augusta of Saxe-Gotha (wife of Frederick Prince of Wales, and mother of George III), was the daughter of Magdalene of Anhalt-Zerbst and the granddaughter of Karl Wilhelm Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst. The Queen is also a descendant of the Anhalt-Dessau line. Prince Philip is a descendant of Empress Catherine the Great of Russia, who was born Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst.

Diana is also a descendant of the Anhalts but much further back.


Quote:
6) Is Diana related to the famous Rothschild family?
Some of the Rothschilds have married into other European noble/aristocratic families so she's probably related to some by marriage. For example, Hannah de Rothschild (1851-1890) married Archibald Primrose 9th Earl of Rosebery (1847-1929) who was distantly related to Diana through their common ancestor Archibald Campbell 9th Earl of Argyll (1629-1685). Lord Rosebery was more closely related to the Queen Mother through their common ancestor Abel Smith (c1717-1788).

Quote:
7) This is more of a general question: How has it been proven that D is related to every single European royal house that the Queen is not?
Well, since the Queen is in fact related to every single European royal house, the question is moot. But in some cases Diana was more closely related than the Queen, or a direct descendant of royals who are only related to the Queen as cousins. For example, Diana was a direct descendant of Charles I, Charles II, James II, Henry IV of France, Federigo IV of Naples, and the Medicis.

Quote:
As well as D being related to most of the British peers/lords/aristocracy?
Yes, her family tree literally groans with British dukes, earls, marquesses, and barons. For example, her great-grandparents include the 6th Earl Spencer, the daughter of the 1st Baron Revelstoke, the 3rd Duke of Abercorn, the daughter of the 4th Earl of Lucan, and the 3rd Baron Fermoy.

While the Queen Mother was also the daughter of an earl, the majority of her ancestors belonged to the untitled landed gentry.

Quote:
8) Because the Queen is related to mostly non-practicing Catholic royals herself, are there many royals Diana is related to that the Queen isn’t? Catholic or any other religion?
As I stated earlier, the Queen is related to every other European royal family. She is of course more closely related to the Protestant royal families but she is also related to the Orthodox and Roman Catholic royal families. But in some cases Diana was more closely related.

Quote:
9) This is my last question: Is Diana related to Stephanie Beauharnais (who was adopted by Napoleon I) and/or Stéphanie’s “rival”, Josephine Tascher-Pagerie? I know Josephine was from Martinique; this fact is especially important because, as a black man, it would be a very unique fact that Diana could possibly have African or Caribbean bloodlines. And especially because I am Bermudian-American and love British royal genealogy. This also goes hand in hand with the fact that Diana (I personally feel) was slightly “Bajan” (as far as having Barbados ancestry).
No, Diana wasn't related to Stephanie de Beauharnais. One of Josephine's great-grandfathers, Anthony Brown, was English, apparently, but his exact origins aren't known (despite what some genealogy sites claim). But if it turns out he was born into an aristocratic family, he probably was related in some way to Diana (and perhaps to the Queen Mother too).

Diana did have ancestors who lived in Barbados and Jamaica but they were wealthy plantation owners originally from England with no African or native bloodlines.
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  #457  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:52 PM
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@Gawin
I tried to quote your reply within mine and answer accordingly, but I got a message saying my reply was over the 10k character limit.
I had to post my response as just my replies to the initial questions and your answers, individually.

My reply:
About question 1: Martha Custis-Washington had English ancestry from both of her parents. I wonder if that makes a difference? I remember hearing that chances are, any British person who has ever lived could easily be a direct descendant of the British Royal Family (except for the Anglo-Saxon era around the 8th century, when the concept of royalty had a different meaning). Martha’s father emigrated to Virginia from England. Although, Martha’s mother was English-American.

2) Is there a more direct relationship The Queen Mother has, in relation to REL? I personally don’t consider someone who is a niece or cousin of an ancestor of someone else, as a “close” relationship. Although, it helps to know that there is at least factual evidence.

3) Is there a closer and more direct relation through Lucrezia’s son, Ercole d’Este? Plus, the Borgias are related to the Medicis. However, Diana is a direct descendant of Caterina Sforza. I believe Lucrezia and Caterina are somewhat related (and I don’t count Lucrezia marrying a Sforza for a short time as a relation, since it was a childless marriage). I believe I found a common relation between Lucrezia and Caterina by tracing the connection myself—it’s either through either an Italian royal house or a French one. I forgot the name of their common ancestor as well. If there is a possibly direct relationship between Lucrezia and Caterina; simply on the fact that the Borgias are related to the Medicis, that would make Caterina a link to both—her later descendants became Medici family members (through her grandson or great-grandson possibly?). Which, in turn, means Henrietta María became Queen of England, and is related to Diana—the question I had about Caterina’s line, later was, I had found two similar Medici women. Marie Medici, as well as a Maria Medici. I know Marie is a Medici/Sforza (she’s a great-granddaughter of Caterina, I believe—and I actually found that via Google searching), but is MARIA (with an A, not an E at the end) related to Caterina somehow; or Lucrezia?
Plus, is Diana possibly a direct descendant of the Borgias, Medici’s AND Sforzas? I know the Borgias and Medici’s are related, but I haven’t found the ancestral lines between them. Also, is it possible that Diana is related to Lucrezia in one of these three ways: 1) Through the later Aragonese Borja’s; 2) I believe a distant (but direct) descendant of the Borgias married into the Habsburg line; 3) Its interesting you said D isn’t related to Stephanie de Beauharnais—yet Stéphanie has descendants in royal houses in Romania, Monaco, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria + Luxembourg, so could she be related to any of those royal houses/and thus, Stéphanie, through her descendants but not directly? I know Stephanie was the mother-in-law of the 11th Duke of Hamilton, who had issue with S’ daughter, Marie Amelie; and 4) Possibly through Josephine Tascher? J’s daughter became Queen Consort of Sweden; other descendants are Baden’s, Leuchtenberg’s and Hohenzollerns, as well as members of Danish, Luxembourg, Norwegian, Greek, and Belgian royalty—so would you be able to see if D or The Queen has direct ties to any Beauharnais descendants who double as members of other royal houses or kingdoms?

4) Is The Queen Mother’s direct line of descent tied from Fulke to Giles and onward? If so, that leads me to my next question: I read that 2 later descendants of Giles Brent married 2 of Charles Caroll’s sisters (Caroll was one of many people who signed the Declaration of Independence). How closely is Diana related to Charles Caroll (or his direct descendants)? Somewhere in the article about Mary K. and Giles that I was reading, the Calvert family (I wonder if it’s the same family of Calvert’s who signed the charters of my state—New Jersey—and Maryland; but I’m not sure) kept being mentioned. Is there a relation between Diana or The Queen that ties them to the colonial Calvert family?

5) You just answered a later question I had asked. I had written that the relation between Constantin could either be through Margaret P., who (on the contrary) could have a second closer relationship with the BRF through Catherine the Great; I read that Catherine has Byzantine lineage (but I don’t know what person made her Russian and Byzantine blood intertwine together); as a result, you had answered my question and said Philip is related to Catherine—but that may also mean Catherine is related to Diana. Are Byzantine Constantin, as well as Catherine, both related to Diana specifically? If so, what is the line of descent? However, are Margaret P., and Constantin related directly?

6) What is Catherine (Sophie’s) Anhalt line? I never knew she was from the Anhalt line.
7) Is TQM’s relation to The Earl Rosebery a direct one? Or is it an “extended” relation (cousin, niece, in-law, by marriage)?

8) It’s interesting you mentioned the close relationships Diana has, that QEII doesn’t. Although, I don’t know of any BRF member (specifically in the earlier centuries) who married a Catholic female or male royal, that in turn left descendants from the marriage to that Catholic female or male (better yet, descendants who, in turn, survived to adulthood and had issue of their own). Are there any exceptions to this case?

9) Is Diana related to every single British Prime Minister? I already know she’s related to Robert Walpole and one other PM, and that David Lloyd-George’s male descendant (with the last name Snow) married a cousin of The Queen. Also, is she, or The Queen, related to any of the Governor Generals, past or present, from any of the Commonwealth realms (including any from the former realms)? Alternatively, does Diana or The Queen have Bermudian ancestry? Or any of their ancestors? What was extremely interesting is that I’ve never heard of Diana having any sort of Jamaican ancestry line; what is the Jamaican line? Does she have other Caribbean bloodlines from other Caribbean (Commonwealth or not) countries besides Barbados and Jamaica?

10) Did every Bajan or Jamaican plantation owner Diana is related to, possibly have African or Caribbean blood through other direct descendants of the plantation owners (from farther back in some of their earlier ancestors’ lines)? What were the ancestors that were looked into on the Jamaican or Bajan side of D?

11) I found out that Lucrezia Borgia—or Caterina Sforza—is related to the husband of the Austrian Archduchess, Maria Theresia, by marriage; is Diana related to Maria T directly?

Once again, I’m sorry for asking even MORE questions than before!
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  #458  
Old 11-29-2018, 03:18 AM
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4) It was Empress Josephine's granddaughter, Princess Josefina of Leuchtenberg who became Queen of Sweden and Norway not her daughter. None of her descendants are closer in relation to Queen Elizabeth than being distant cousins such as King Harald of Norway, Queen Margrethe of Denmark, King Carl Gustav of Sweden, King Philipe of Belgium. Also worth mentioning is the members of the House of Baden descended from Prince Philip's sister Theodora.

8) In order to be able to have a Protestant heir to Queen Anne the parliament bypassed over 50 Catholic descendants of the Stuart kings. The Jacobite claimant today is a member of the House of Wittelsbach and within the foreseeable future the claim will lie with the then reigning Prince of Liechtenstein. Practically every major Catholic Royal in Europe today, including the Count of Paris and the King of Spain, are Stuart descendants mainly from the marriage of Henrietta Stuart to the Duke of Orleans and in the case of the King of Spain also through Ena of Battenberg, granddaughter of Queen Victoria, who married King Alfonso XIII.
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  #459  
Old 11-29-2018, 08:53 AM
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Because all the European royal families are related in some way, although sometimes very distantly, the Queen, Prince Philip, and Diana are related to Empress Josephine's royal descendants (but not Josephine herself). These are the closest connections I can think of:

(1) Josephine's son Eugene married Princess Auguste of Bavaria. Her first cousins Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (wife of the Duke of Saxe-Hildburghausen) and Louise of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (Queen of Prussia) were Philip's direct ancestors.

(2) Eugene and Auguste's son Maximilien Duke of Leuchtenberg married Grand Duchess Maria of Russia whose brother Grand Duke Constantine was Philip's great-grandfather.

(3) Maximilien and Maria's grandson Prince Maximilian of Baden married Princess Marie Louise of Hanover, a niece of Queen Alexandra (Queen Elizabeth's great-grandmother) and King George I of the Hellenes (Prince Philip's grandfather).

(4) Maximilian and Marie Louise's son Berthold of Baden married Princess Theodora of Greece, Prince Philip's sister.

BTW - I'll answer your other questions later.
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  #460  
Old 11-30-2018, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
4) It was Empress Josephine's granddaughter, Princess Josefina of Leuchtenberg who became Queen of Sweden and Norway not her daughter. None of her descendants are closer in relation to Queen Elizabeth than being distant cousins such as King Harald of Norway, Queen Margrethe of Denmark, King Carl Gustav of Sweden, King Philipe of Belgium. Also worth mentioning is the members of the House of Baden descended from Prince Philip's sister Theodora.

8) In order to be able to have a Protestant heir to Queen Anne the parliament bypassed over 50 Catholic descendants of the Stuart kings. The Jacobite claimant today is a member of the House of Wittelsbach and within the foreseeable future the claim will lie with the then reigning Prince of Liechtenstein. Practically every major Catholic Royal in Europe today, including the Count of Paris and the King of Spain, are Stuart descendants mainly from the marriage of Henrietta Stuart to the Duke of Orleans and in the case of the King of Spain also through Ena of Battenberg, granddaughter of Queen Victoria, who married King Alfonso XIII.
About question 4: What a shame that there were descendants AROUND Philip and QEII, but none directly tied to them. Are any of Josephine’s descendants directly tied to Diana?
About question 8: I already knew about the succession crisis surrounding Queen Anne’s death. That’s how we got the present line of the Royal Family. I believe times are much different now, regarding the Catholic concerns—Catholics CAN now marry into the BRF (I read that it says so in the Succession Act 2013; is this true?). The only problem is, I read, that it will be frowned upon; although it is definitely allowed now. I find it fascinating that 1,200 years of history could have turned out much differently if Catholic people in the days of old were respected and treated as regular human beings. Perhaps there wouldn’t have been religious persecution at all, if they kept that in mind thousands of years ago? Look at the Four Crusades especially, as well as The Glorious Revolution of 1688. They’re the main two wars that come to mind, pertaining to the Catholicism concerns.
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