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  #361  
Old 05-05-2017, 02:49 AM
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Queen Elizabeth2Fan, on this thread a poster who no longer comments here, Sangre Real016, posted a long list of Diana's ancestors, including the Arabella Churchill line, in post number #67.

Having said that, it is very difficult sometimes to truly verify bloodlines from an illegitimate person, as even if that offspring was acknowledged by the father, there is still of course some doubt.

Most young men aren't interested in their ancestry IMO, unless they are intrigued by a certain forbear or get into genealogy as a hobby. Queen Mary was, as far as I know, the only person in the BRF who had an encyclopedic knowledge of her own and others' bloodlines. Her husband certainly didn't. I believe Charles has an interest to a certain extent but it wouldn't rival his great-grandmother's.
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  #362  
Old 05-05-2017, 03:26 AM
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When I regret it that royals have let down all requirements ("Princess Meghan") and would like to see royals connecting with historic families, I am gunned down with a bazooka for having outdated views.

The same folks gunning me down then use a magnifying glass to browse to all possible descendants of a Kate or a Meghan to see if there is some drop of blue blood traceable somewhere as if to prove they are really not the Eliza-Doolittle-Next-Door to be time-warped into "royalty".

Lady Diana Spencer had a fabulous ancestry, deeply rooted with all the families which did matter in Britain's long history. She is the daughter from a countryside Earl. Nothing wrong with that. This frantically searching for a possible royal ancestor 8 generations ago somehow gives the impression that Diana was not good enoughi or something.

Claims that Diana is "more royal" are utterly laughable. One only needs to look to Prince Philip's darkblue blooded ancestry, which comes together with that of the Queen in their four children, to wipe away any suggestion that Diana is "more royal" than the Windsors.
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  #363  
Old 05-05-2017, 04:20 AM
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I haven't posted here in a while. But, I do check out the site from time to time.

Iain is an "illegitimate" person? As in an illegitimate child, or illegitimate as in not genuine?

And I, myself, am young. I got into genealogy because I wanted to specifically check out the Royal Family's bloodlines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
When I regret it that royals have let down all requirements ("Princess Meghan") and would like to see royals connecting with historic families, I am gunned down with a bazooka for having outdated views.

The same folks gunning me down then use a magnifying glass to browse to all possible descendants of a Kate or a Meghan to see if there is some drop of blue blood traceable somewhere as if to prove they are really not the Eliza-Doolittle-Next-Door to be time-warped into "royalty".

Lady Diana Spencer had a fabulous ancestry, deeply rooted with all the families which did matter in Britain's long history. She is the daughter from a countryside Earl. Nothing wrong with that. This frantically searching for a possible royal ancestor 8 generations ago somehow gives the impression that Diana was not good enoughi or something.

Claims that Diana is "more royal" are utterly laughable. One only needs to look to Prince Philip's darkblue blooded ancestry, which comes together with that of the Queen in their four children, to wipe away any suggestion that Diana is "more royal" than the Windsors.
I definitely don't think your views are outdated!

And who were you addressing when you said someone "was searching for a royal ancestor from 8 generations ago"?

You're right! Diana did, indeed, have a fascinating genealogical blueprint.

I definitely want to get the book that's literally called The Ancestry of Diana, Princess of Wales by Richard K. (I forget his last name), but he lives in my country, the USA, and works for the New England Historical Society. (Or Genealogical, possibly, I forget!)
I want to find out even more information about Diana's bloodlines, through the book. Can anyone tell me if the book is genuine, before I buy it? I've tried to research some information about it and haven't found anything.
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  #364  
Old 05-05-2017, 11:15 AM
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I have a couple questions:
Is Diana directly related to:
1) Deborah Mitford, Duchess of Devonshire?;
2) The Monegasque Royal Family?;
3) One of Lady Jane Grey's relatives?;
and
4) Lucrezia Borgia? I know she's related to Caterina Sforza, which is why I'm asking.
and, finally:
5) Does she have any Byzantine lineage?

I've tried Googling "Princess Diana Ancestry" and I've only found one or two interesting articles, but they mention the Windsor side and/or Diana's other ancestries.
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  #365  
Old 05-05-2017, 12:46 PM
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There is no direct relationship between Diana Spencer and Deborah Mitford. There is however a current link via the Ogilvy family (Earls of Airlie). The paternal grandmother of the Mitford sisters was Lady Clementina Ogilvy. The father of Lady Clementina was the 10th Earl of Airlie.

The link to the royal family is as follows:

David Ogilvy, 10th Earl of Airlie
x Hon Henrietta Blanche Stanley
= David

David Ogilvy, 11th Earl of Airlie
x Lady Mabell Frances Gore
= David

David Ogilvy, 12th Earl of Airlie
x Lady Alexandra Coke
= Angus

Hon Angus Ogilvy
x Princess Alexandra of Kent
= James Ogilvy
= Marina Ogilvy
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  #366  
Old 05-05-2017, 01:01 PM
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According to Wikipedia, this is Diana's connection to most of Europe's royal families. She's a descendent, though illegitimate, of Charles II

Charles II of England mistress Louise de Kérouaille, Duchess of Portsmouth

son Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond married Anne Brudenell

son Charles Lennox, 2nd Duke of Richmond married Sarah Lennox, Duchess of Richmond and Lennox

son General Lord George Lennox married Lady Louisa Kerr

son Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond married Lady Charlotte Gordon

son Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond married Lady Caroline Paget

daughter Lady Cecilia Gordon-Lennox married Charles Bingham, 4th Earl of Lucan

daughter Lady Rosalind Bingham (1869–1958) married James Hamilton, 3rd Duke of Abercorn

daughter Lady Cynthia Hamilton married Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer
son John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer married Frances Roche

daughter Diana, Princess of Wales married Charles, Prince of Wales

sons Prince William, Duke of Cambridge and Prince Harry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descen...3.A9e_Villiers
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  #367  
Old 05-05-2017, 01:04 PM
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A great-great-grandmother of Prince Albert, Princess Caroline and Princess Stéphanie de Monaco was Lady Mary Douglas-Hamilton, daughter of the 11th Duke of Hamilton and 8th Duke of Brandon. Most likely somewhere there will be a common ancestor, but it is clear it if not "direct" at all.
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  #368  
Old 05-06-2017, 10:44 AM
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So I think it's safe to say that Diana was related to almost every British/English aristocratic family.
Except the Redesdales (Sydney, ___th Baron Redesdale was Deborah Mitford's father)

Is Diana related to:
1) Lucrezia Borgia
2) Any recent Kings of Spain or past Kings of France
3) Any Kings of Italy (from possibly the 17th to 20th centuries)
4) The royal families of Luxembourg and Liechtenstein?
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  #369  
Old 05-06-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
So I think it's safe to say that Diana was related to almost every British/English aristocratic family.
Except the Redesdales (Sydney, ___th Baron Redesdale was Deborah Mitford's father)
Georgiana Spencer, the greatx4-aunt of Diana married the fifth Duke of Devonshire & is therefore an ancestor of Deborah Mitfords husband
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  #370  
Old 05-06-2017, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
Is Diana related to:
1) Lucrezia Borgia
2) Any recent Kings of Spain or past Kings of France
3) Any Kings of Italy (from possibly the 17th to 20th centuries)
4) The royal families of Luxembourg and Liechtenstein?
The Borgias: no. The rise and fall of that family took place in the 15th C. They rose from obscurity to shame and fame and felt quite soon back into relative obscurity. They were mainly seen as parvenues in the eyes of the royal families and the aristocracy. That someone in far-away England would marry a Spanish or Italian Borgia is hard to imagine.

The royal houses of Spain, France, Luxembourg (all three Houses are Bourbons), Italy (Savoy): yes, when we acccept that Diana is a descendant of a bastard of Charles II, then ultimately we will find some shared ancestors, if we search long enough, as the descendants of said Charles II of course came from continental royal houses which were very linked together.

With the princely family of Liechtenstein there will be links too since the current Hereditary Princess is the second most senior agnate of the Jacobite claim on the thrones of England and Scotland and this claim derives from the Stuarts, of which Charles II was a scion (and ultimately also Diana).
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  #371  
Old 05-06-2017, 12:05 PM
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Not just any 'bastards'. Charles II had no legitimate issue but he officially recognised some of his children including Diana's ancestors, Henry Fitzroy, 1st Duke of Grafton, and Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond. She is a direct descendent.
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  #372  
Old 05-06-2017, 12:16 PM
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I know that Diana is probably related to Jaquetta of Luxembourg. But, is Jaquetta an ancestor of the current Luxembourg Royal Family?
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  #373  
Old 05-06-2017, 01:02 PM
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Ish Ish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
I have Iain Moncreiffe's book (Royal Highness: Ancestry of the Royal Child) about the ancestry of the Spencer's and the Windsors.
Does anyone have a copy of the book like I do?
And can anyone verify the truthful royal ancestry from the royals to Diana? i.e. Can anyone here verify how true the lines of descent are?

Also, on Wikipedia, it says "if this is true" under a line of descent "proposed" by Iain. Can anyone verify this one as well?

Plus, how is Princess Di related to Arbella Churchill, and Bess of Hardwick, individually?

I don't really think (to respond to the 'who's more royal than who' debate) it's a matter of who's more royal.
As long as Prince William becomes King of England, I'd be happy! Because he truly unites the Windsor and Spencer bloodlines.

Also: Does anyone know why William doesn't talk about his ancestry that much? Someone here said he "rarely" talks about it.
Re: the whole "who's more royal than who" debate; this is something that got blown out of proportion based on a comment that Diana is said to have made about her family (the Spencers) being older than Prince Philip's (the Mountbattens). The actual titles - Earl Spencer vs. Duke of Edinburgh, or even Earl Spencer vs. Prince of Greece and Denmark - do show this, but the families themselves don't. The Spencer family only goes back to the 16th century, while the DoE can trace his male-line ancestry back to 1040, and his female line ancestry can be traced almost as far back.

The Spencers are descended from 58 British monarchs (21 of England, 4 of Great Britain, and 21 of Scotland), the most recent being James II/VII. The DoE's family is descended from 57 British monarchs (20 of England, 5 of Great Britain, and 20 of Scotland), the most recent being Queen Victoria. The Queen is descended from 62 British monarchs (21 of England, 9 of Britain, and 21 of Scotland), the most recent being her father.

The Spencers have more royal ancestry in Spain/France/Portugal - descending from 172 monarchs there, in comparison to the Queen and DoE's 166 monarchs. However, the DoE has more ancestors in Eastern European royalty - 66 monarchs to the Queen's 56, and the Spencers' 55 - and more ancestors in Scandinavian royalty - 70 monarchs to the Queen's 68 and the Spencers' 53. The DoE is descended from 387 different reigning European monarchs (the most recent being his grandfather), the Queen is descended from 379 monarchs, and the Spencers from 365. Diana's mother's family, the Roches, are even worse - 246 reigning monarchs.
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  #374  
Old 05-06-2017, 07:18 PM
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Interesting!
What about the nobility across Europe that the Queen, Duke of E., and the Spencer's are descended from?
Do you have the exact amount, Ish?
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  #375  
Old 05-06-2017, 07:29 PM
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King Charles II's mother Henrietta Maria was the daughter of the French King Henry IV, a Bourbon. Diana's descent from Charles II comes through two illegitimate sons of Charles, Henry Ist Duke of Grafton and Charles, Ist Duke of Richmond.
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  #376  
Old 05-06-2017, 07:32 PM
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Its not IMO that interesting. Diana is of an "old" family, which is one reason why charles married her. but its absurd to think that he chose her because she has some Stuart blood on the wrong side of the blanket. She was not royal, he is...
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  #377  
Old 05-07-2017, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Its not IMO that interesting. Diana is of an "old" family, which is one reason why charles married her. but its absurd to think that he chose her because she has some Stuart blood on the wrong side of the blanket. She was not royal, he is...
What isn't interesting to you?
And you're right, she was simply an aristocrat.
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  #378  
Old 05-07-2017, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post
What isn't interesting to you?
And you're right, she was simply an aristocrat.
I could imagine that refers to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenElizabeth2Fan View Post

Interesting!
What about the nobility across Europe that the Queen, Duke of E., and the Spencer's are descended from?
Do you have the exact amount, Ish?
in a way that for your personal status it doesn't matter of how many royals you descend compared to another person.
The last couple of posts have a strong reminiscence of the "who is more royal, Diana or the Windsors" discussion which occasionally shows up again (and imo is an irrelevant discussion)

But purely for genealogical purposes ofcourse it is interesting, because the more royals you have in your family tree, the easier it is to trace your ancestors and the further back you can get back
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  #379  
Old 05-07-2017, 12:15 PM
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Conclusion: the Prince of Wales married a daughter of a respected countryside nobleman. And in the genealogical tree there is a link to a bastard of King Charles II.

That sounds negative but is not. Often bastards climbed to high positions in society. They were often openly recognizable as a bastard branch by a bar on their coat-of-arms:

Example: Bourbon-Parma with three fleurs-de-lys and Bourbon-Busset with the same arms but with a bar. That bar shows that the Bourbon-Bussets proudly carry the French royal arms but are not dynasts of the Royal House because they are descendants of a 13th c bastard.

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  #380  
Old 05-07-2017, 12:24 PM
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Now that, m'friend, is interesting that I didn't know or even thought possible.

Thanks for helping me check off my "learn something new everyday" box today.
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