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  #161  
Old 12-22-2010, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
Also after she had the boys did she take medication then?
No medication until about ten years into her broken marriage. Her close friend, Carolyn told her if she didn't get help she would go to the press and tell of her bulimia.
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  #162  
Old 12-22-2010, 06:14 PM
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My mother summed this up beautifully I think some years ago - "Camilla was in Diana's head so much that she ended up in Charles bed."

In other words Diana believed it even when it wasn't true to the extent that it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Pretty much, yeah I definitely agree with your mother

I think as I said earlier because she knew of Camilla prior to the marriage and was unhappy with the relationship from the beginning I find she couldn't let it go and trust him. Not to say Charles was any better maybe there were some ways he could have reassured Diana as well but they both played huge roles in the eventual breakdown of the marriage. As Jennifer Aniston once said " Your partner can take 90% of the blame in the failure of your marriage but you too also have to take that other 10%" So basically everyone is to blame when the marriage falls apart not just that one person. But ya in the all the books I've ever read no one has ever provided any sort of proof that Camilla was still around in the early years.
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  #163  
Old 12-22-2010, 06:40 PM
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Dimbleby would have talked to the courtiers who were in Prince Charles's office at the time, and his book reflects what they observed about Diana in the lead-up to the marriage. She asked a lot of questions about Camilla and Charles' relationship with her. Charles is quoted as believing that Diana was "obsessed" with Camilla.

I think that medication would have helped her a lot. It would have taken the edge off her jealousy. That's assuming that Prince Charles had given up Camilla before his marriage. There doesn't seem to be any hard evidence that he didn't give her up. If he had been intimate with Camilla early in the marriage, somebody would have talked. Somebody in one of the households or an acquaintance would have sold the story.


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There it is again - the reference to Camilla being a 'shadow' in the marriage. Is this just Diana's spin repeated? Or is there reliable sources that verify this? I'm really asking - is there? Or is this bit solely the result of what Diana had said and has subsequently gotten repeated so much that it is taken as truth?
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  #164  
Old 12-22-2010, 06:46 PM
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Mermaid 1962 I agree with you.
Poor Princess Diana seeing Camilla in the marriage. Medication would have help her.
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  #165  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:01 PM
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...There doesn't seem to be any hard evidence that he didn't give her up. If he had been intimate with Camilla early in the marriage, somebody would have talked.
Exactly! oh really Mermaid where is Charles quoted as saying Diana was obsessed with Camilla though I don't doubt it even the way she spoke of her in the Morton tapes definitely sounded like it to me. I mean just as I said the fact Camilla was even present prior to the marriage musta caused all the stress for Diana being young and naive I can see where her trust issues may have come from. Though I don't understand where she says when she saw Camilla at the wedding she thought it was all over what caused her to feel as though Camilla's presence had returned in their marriage in such early days even during the honeymoon. She said she dreamt of Camilla the whole time. I really should have payed more attention to the Dimbleby book but I had it during exam period so I just quickly scanned through it and got the parts I needed and left the rest. Maybe I'll renew it at some point.
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  #166  
Old 12-23-2010, 02:57 AM
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It's in Dimbleby's book, in the chapter about their wedding and honeymoon.


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Exactly! oh really Mermaid where is Charles quoted as saying Diana was obsessed with Camilla
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  #167  
Old 12-23-2010, 03:05 AM
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It's in Dimbleby's book, in the chapter about their wedding and honeymoon.
Ah thank you gotta check to see if I scanned that bit if not ...*sigh* I have a bad feeling I'll be going to the library in the new year

You know what I never quite could get my head around was Diana said she received no help now did she mean prior to the marriage aka no "princess school" or during the marriage for example no one telling her well done. Cause if she meant prior to the wedding she did receive some extent of trainingbut it was 2 people who had been sent by the Queen to help her. I cannot remember their names . Maybe no one told her what exactly she was supposed to do but I assume the basics were there such as etiquete and such. Plus I also remember either Bradford or Brown said she was given Welsh lessons but she refused
I'm watching Panorama right now and she says that in the early years they were very happily married. She doesn't mention Camilla at all. Also in those tapes from her speech trainer she revealed that she thought Charles was seeing Camilla once she followed a pattern she said something like" It was once every 3 weeks and then I followed a pattern", while talking about them "sleeping together" She also says in Panorama that there was a change in pattern in her husband. But she keeps refering to "instinct told her" or "people who cared about our marriage" She also mentions Charles' friends alot and they're invovlement in the marriage ie "Diana was unstable she should be put in a home" which in hindsight is interesting though I do find his friends have alot of influence on him IMO She's always used the unstable thing with the royals blaming the bulimia on the marriage failure but till now I hadn't really noticed the whole thing about his friends saying it too though from what I read she was getting a little out of control.

She claims that she loved country life..k that's news to me...I also don't get how she says in the Morton tapes that Charles made her feel inadequate yet in Panorama she said that she herself felt as though she wasn't good enough for the family that she had inflicted the bulimia on herself and during that period those are the thoughts that would go through her mind.

Blah Diana really contradicts herself in these 3 interviews. It's quite a contrast though from the 1985 interview called The Prince and Princess of Wales Talking Personally
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  #168  
Old 12-23-2010, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
Yes, Diana, Princess of Wales' fear did become reality. She made it happen.
I just wish she would have been under medication. I really believe she would never have a reason for divorce.
Diana probably was full of fears. As a child, she was lied to by her environment because of her parent's divorce. It was an ugly divorce in an aristocratic household where there was not only the family but a lot of staff. Having staff is always a question of loyality and in the Spencer household, the loyalities were divided. First due to the divorce, then due to the fact that the Spencer children did not like their stepmother Raine who was the new mistress and thus responsible for the management of the staff. At boardingschool you learn pretty fast that there are members of staff approachable for pupils who want to break the rules...

Thus I think Diana by the time she was a grown-up certainly was at least aware that as long as you are surrounded by servants and you not the absolute mistress, you're in for a problem.

And as much as Charles accepted Diana's decisions about their staff (there was a lot of hire and fire gong on), there were quite some people she couldn't control or get rid of. For somebody with her background that must have meant that she could never be sure to be secure in her own household, in her own private sphere.

One of the first things that happened was the discovery of the farewell present for Camilla. I personally am convinced that Charles' staff at the office knew what it was and were curious to see what would happen when Diana opened it. Or they tried to stop her. Whatever happened exactly, I think in this moment Diana realised that Charles had a life of his own which she wouldn't be able to control. And in her mind she brought this "other life" in a line with "Camilla" - even though it wasn't about her but about Charles' circle of friends and loyal retainers.

So "Three in a marriage - a bit crowded" was more about the fact that Charles had a life besides being Diana's husband, that he was Prince, boss, friend, public personality etc. All these woes focussed on Camilla and the role she together with the "Grey Men" played in not giving Diana what she craved: full control of Charles, of her household, of her position within the monarchy.

For me, all Diana did was based in her wish to try to take over full control. I doubt she understood what trust meant. And so one thing led to the other. Sad.
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  #169  
Old 12-23-2010, 03:02 PM
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I can understand to some point that prior to her marriage she craved for Charles' attention after all she was alone and bored at the palace. But after the wedding...I mean couldn't she see that his duty came before his family IMO when you marry into this family you must have some sort of knowledge of what's ahead, plus they both seemed to be busy all the time.
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  #170  
Old 12-23-2010, 03:37 PM
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I think that after the marriage she knew they would both be busy but she thought they would be busy together. Even having the Knowledge of whats ahead, I still think she was ill prepared for her furture role to the Royal family.
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  #171  
Old 12-23-2010, 04:18 PM
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I believe that Diana admitted at least once that her problems with bulimia well predated her marriage -- that they'd begun in adolescence. And as far as her treatment for bulimia is concerned, she did see a prominent psychiatrist for about 6 months -- not enough time to treat a long-standing eating disorder -- and I don't believe I read that she was actually prescribed any medication. People who knew her have stated that the bulimia continued afterwards; she never really got it under control.

I've been interested in suggestions, such as those by Sally Bedell Smith, that Diana suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder, of which eating disorders can be a symptom. It's very risky -- even irresponsible -- to diagnose from afar a person you've never met, but Diana's life was lived so publicly, partly because she herself chose to live it that way through the media, that perhaps it's fair to make an exception in her case. I've known a couple of people with BPD, and Diana did seem to have many of the symptoms, not just the bulimia, but also the extreme insecurity, the constant need for attention and reassurance, fickleness in relationships, stalking and harassing behavior, real or pretend suicide attempts or self-harm. Childhood trauma such as the death of a parent, or perceived abandonment by a parent, is a risk factor. Though I obviously can't be sure that Diana had BPD, I can't help but feel that Diana's problems did have their roots in her parents' messy divorce and that it was a tragedy that she did not receive professional help as a child or adolescent.
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  #172  
Old 12-23-2010, 04:53 PM
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...For me, all Diana did was based in her wish to try to take over full control. I doubt she understood what trust meant. And so one thing led to the other. Sad.
This makes sense to me. Children from a broken or very dysfunctional home often have control issues as they attempt to manipulate and control their environment to give them what they feel they lack. I would think that becoming royal would be attractive to such a person in much the same way becoming famous as a performer would (a great many comedians and actors have confessed to having poor self esteem before they went into entertainment, and still had it afterwards). The person thinks on some level that an adoring public will make up for the love missed in childhood. Bulimia and other eating disorders are connected to issues about control, from what I learned in psychology classes in college.

While Charles is no more perfect than anyone else, he couldn't have made her happy unless she did get a great deal of good therapy, perhaps not even then. A person so needy never gets enough love or reassurance, no matter what the spouse, friends, or anyone else does. It's never enough to make up for what was lost in childhood.
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  #173  
Old 12-23-2010, 05:36 PM
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I think that after the marriage she knew they would both be busy but she thought they would be busy together. Even having the Knowledge of whats ahead, I still think she was ill prepared for her furture role to the Royal family.
She may not have been prepared for the rigors of marriage, period. Where were her mother, sisters, friends regarding all the realities of marriage? I find this idea that Diana was 'alone' having to figure things out as odd in the extreme. In her case, the 'virginity' status translated into also not having any significant boyfriends, chaste or not. She did not fall 'madly in love' as we do in adolescence (though Charles may be that one for her - except she married him), did not go 'steady', did not have break-ups - all of that. Assuming constant togetherness is wildly unrealistic - just doesn't happen even in 'normal' marriages. All-in-all, in the end, what a disastrous decision to marry this young girl no one - it seems - really knew, except that she fit a check list. She wanted it too much - she was too eager - and somehow that eagerness did not send off a warning bell for Charles. Its as though he had to get married in July 1981 - logistics in place - and if it wasn't Amanda Knatchbull then it would be Diana Spencer, if she said yes. Curious who the next one on the list would have been?

I've had an intuition that Charles was likely having a bad time of it early in the marriage - and all that I am now hearing confirms it for me. He has all the blame on his shoulders because he was 'older and experienced' - but truly no one is prepared for a partner who demonstrates a disturbed mental or emotional tendency after the marriage vows are spoken. In fact - a little factoid - in the Roman Catholic Church, there are conditions under which a marriage can be annulled: one being that one partner denies sex to the other partner, and another is insanity. Basically, the idea is that there is a purpose to marriage and when conditions arise that block the purpose then the marriage does not then really exist and can be annulled. Clearly this was not an option for Charles because of his position - but his distress must have been extreme and it startles me that no one recognizes - or seems to - that Charles was in a very difficult situation.

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Originally Posted by AnnEliza View Post
This makes sense to me. Children from a broken or very dysfunctional home often have control issues as they attempt to manipulate and control their environment to give them what they feel they lack. I would think that becoming royal would be attractive to such a person in much the same way becoming famous as a performer would (a great many comedians and actors have confessed to having poor self esteem before they went into entertainment, and still had it afterwards). The person thinks on some level that an adoring public will make up for the love missed in childhood. Bulimia and other eating disorders are connected to issues about control, from what I learned in psychology classes in college.

While Charles is no more perfect than anyone else, he couldn't have made her happy unless she did get a great deal of good therapy, perhaps not even then. A person so needy never gets enough love or reassurance, no matter what the spouse, friends, or anyone else does. It's never enough to make up for what was lost in childhood.
I have also had that thought about her. When she did the dance for Charles - as I have read about it and seen the pictures, it strikes me that Diana missed her calling. She really would have been happier as an outright performer, where her 'problems' - so glaringly obvious as a princess - would have been perfectly 'acceptable' as an actress, perhaps. Though, truth to say, even that's questionable but one never knows.

Diana was likely making a very common error - once married she would mold Charles into the kind of person she wanted him to be. That would go far to explain the 'shouting matches' reported between them.
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  #174  
Old 12-23-2010, 05:54 PM
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If I remember right, she did want to be a dancer (ballerina) but was deemed too tall for it.
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  #175  
Old 12-23-2010, 06:00 PM
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I doubt very much about professional ballet training for career.She liked this art,but the ballerines are far more skinner than she was those times,she didn't have sufficiebt training or practice for this beautiful art,but she was fond of and in her dreams considreed such a career.
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  #176  
Old 12-23-2010, 06:29 PM
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May I ask something this may not be entirely related to Panorama but I've read way too many books to keep track so I have to re-ask, what was Diana's relationship with Charles' friends? Did he really push some of them away for her? Did she get on with any of them? I distinctly remember in Dimbleby's book it was mentioned that at times Charles' often took his friends advice over the courtiers at Diana didn't like that and the author even suggests that there may have been times where he should have listened to the courtiers over his friends. I mean did they really label her so unstable she needed to be put in a home as she stated in Panorama?

As for Camilla if I remember correctly there were 2 incidents prior to the present he presented her a few days before the wedding. One she said she heard him on his handheld saying "whatever happens I'll always love you" and also we had the incident where he took a call from Camilla and Diana decided to "leave them to it" prior to his departure for the trip to was it New Zealand? Also we have the photos of Camilla hanging around Diana now was it pre-engagement or pre-wedding I can't remember at polo and it's the photo where it shows the sign on top of Diana that said "Second" so I'm quite sure Diana had an awareness of Camilla. I'm assuming perhaps it triggered something off maybe something she had seen in her own parents' marriage a pattern or something that perhaps caused her Camilla obsession.

I remember her saying " I thought he was going to take care of me" so it's clear from the start she wanted Charles to herself.
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  #177  
Old 12-23-2010, 06:38 PM
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Diana wasn't paranoid, Charles really was continuing his romance with Mrs. PB after the marriage. There were three people in the marriage and many of the people Diana had originally thought were her friends were providing clandestine trysting places for Mrs. PB and Charles. Several royal biographies explain how Camilla selected Diana as a heir provider for Charles and illustrate how she questioned Diana about riding and was relieved to learn that Diana wouldn't be riding to hounds with she and Charles so that they could keep up their secret meetings during the hunt season.

Actually Diana and Charles had a great deal in common, from love of classical music, she played it extremely well on the piano, to skiing. They each liked to garden and do needle point as well as attend the opera and ballet. Camilla wasn't interested in skiing or opera or ballet. Diana did love the country, she just didn't care to have Mrs. PB at Highgrove so often alone with Charles while she and the boys were away.Naturally it no longer seemed like home to Diana with Mrs. PB playing hostess for Charles and calling in the decorators to change everything that Diana had chosen while Diana and Charles were still married. Camilla and Chas were still denying they were in a long term affair when the CamillaGate tapes were exposed to the public. They tried to cover up their wrong doing.

Quote:
"At Bolehyde Camilla was
having second thoughts. She no longer believed that Diana was as naive as she first had assumed. She could see too that Charles was attracted to Diana, that he was looking at her with covetous glances, that a familiarity had formed between them. Camilla was anxious now that she and Kanga had miscalculated. She attempted to dissuade Diana from encouraging Charles to propose. Diana began to wonder how and why Camilla seemed to know so much about Charles and herself. Having championed Diana to Charles in the beginning, Camilla was unable to reverse her position without losing her
credibility." Page 115 ~"Ever After" by Anne Edwards.

"Any future woman in Charles's life, even the one he would eventually marry, would not merely have to be approved by Camilla, who required reassurance that they would offer no threat to her own place in the prince's life. They would also have to learn to live with her, almost literally." Page 140,
"Charles at Fifty" by Anthony Holden.
So in this interview, when Diana stated "three in the marriage," she meant it quite literally and she lived it for more than a decade before deciding to admit it.
All Diana needed to be happy was a faithful husband who didn't put another woman first. Sadly, Charles wasn't that sort of husband.
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  #178  
Old 12-23-2010, 06:41 PM
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I believe that Diana admitted at least once that her problems with bulimia well predated her marriage -- that they'd begun in adolescence. And as far as her treatment for bulimia is concerned, she did see a prominent psychiatrist for about 6 months -- not enough time to treat a long-standing eating disorder -- and I don't believe I read that she was actually prescribed any medication. People who knew her have stated that the bulimia continued afterwards; she never really got it under control.

I've been interested in suggestions, such as those by Sally Bedell Smith, that Diana suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder, of which eating disorders can be a symptom. It's very risky -- even irresponsible -- to diagnose from afar a person you've never met, but Diana's life was lived so publicly, partly because she herself chose to live it that way through the media, that perhaps it's fair to make an exception in her case. I've known a couple of people with BPD, and Diana did seem to have many of the symptoms, not just the bulimia, but also the extreme insecurity, the constant need for attention and reassurance, fickleness in relationships, stalking and harassing behavior, real or pretend suicide attempts or self-harm. Childhood trauma such as the death of a parent, or perceived abandonment by a parent, is a risk factor. Though I obviously can't be sure that Diana had BPD, I can't help but feel that Diana's problems did have their roots in her parents' messy divorce and that it was a tragedy that she did not receive professional help as a child or adolescent.
The moment Diana made her private life public - the moment she began involving the public by 'telling' and 'selling' her point of view, like a politician, to the extent of trying to intervene in the succession (in this instance) - she it was who opened up the Pandora's Box. Absolutely she is an exception, as to questioning her overall balance, if not sanity.

Have people never had the experience of telling one's side in a disagreement, assuming one's 'shoulder' will commiserate with one and nod in agreement with the consoling 'tsk,tsk' - only to find one's confidante look at one soberly and say, 'But you know, they may have a point....' Agh!!!!!! No-no-no-no! That's what I see Diana doing - using the public as her 'shoulder' and there comes a point where one stops and say, 'But you know, they may have a point....'

BPD is as good as anything as far as I'm concerned - because something was amiss. What an uproar she made - what a lot of animosity and damage she instigated - and continues to do with her 'followers'. Its a phenomenon that bears analysis for sure, in particular when she is referenced as a 'role model' (my own personal bug-a-boo regarding her).
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  #179  
Old 12-23-2010, 07:00 PM
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Diana , Princess of Wales had no mental illness issues. Dr Neville Marks, imminent psychiatrist, who knew her personally made it clear that she was mentally sound, carrying out hundreds of duties, raising millions for her charities and being a devoted mother and wife to the extent she was allowed to be. He said, "In my professional opinion, an individual with a personality disorder could not have possibly carried out such an extent of work over a period of that many years with such flying colors." No one in the medical field ever diagnosed Diana as mad or unstable, it was strictly Charles and his disgruntled friend Soames who claimed she was because they didn't want people to know Charles was really cheating on her. They wanted it to look like she just imagined it, when it was crystal clear he was seeing Camilla frequently.

She went to the aid of those who were depressed. She was the giver, not the taker. Naturally any woman would be upset with a cheating husband, but she bore it well for years, always told she couldn't have a divorce, that she just had to deal with it. Which turned out to be false. She thought an affair was her only option for happiness but the queen wanted the divorce to occur, she was finally freed from Charles and his affairs.
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Old 12-23-2010, 07:11 PM
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I agree Marie, she was more likely depressed. Though I don't think Charles is that cruel enough to make people think she was having mental issues. She is the mother of their children. I can see people around him probably doing it. I seem to remember someone (on the side of charles) commenting that she should have just put up with it. That they usually had mistresses on the side.

I also tend to be wary of what the authors and people who came out after she died have said. It is very convient that they come out after she died and she can't defend herself.
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