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  #181  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:18 AM
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You could be in worse places, I suppose.

[QUOTE=ghost_night554;1179841I have a bad feeling I'll be going to the library in the new year[/QUOTE]
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  #182  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Marie of The Sea View Post
Diana wasn't paranoid, Charles really was continuing his romance with Mrs. PB after the marriage. There were three people in the marriage and many of the people Diana had originally thought were her friends were providing clandestine trysting places for Mrs. PB and Charles. Several royal biographies explain how Camilla selected Diana as a heir provider for Charles and illustrate how she questioned Diana about riding and was relieved to learn that Diana wouldn't be riding to hounds with she and Charles so that they could keep up their secret meetings during the hunt season.
Alas, you can find as much Royal biographers who say the exact opposite. You even have Diana and Charles saying the exact opposite. So who's to believe?

You gave your answer and now I give mine: I believe that Charles ended his relationship with Camilla and tried to give his marriage a chance.
So for me, what you state as facts here is just your view on the situation back then. Maybe we all should stick to voicing opinions. Because it is a bit annoying for everybody to see statements of "facts" when these "facts " are heavily disputed. In a way we are all "fans" so we should tread the other carefully in order not to hurt anybody. My opinion, that is.

And merry christmas to all.
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  #183  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:34 AM
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There doesn't seem to be any proof of that, though. No objective proof. What we have is Diana's word over Charles's. I'm open to proof that there was a continuing sexual relationship between Charles and Camilla after July 29, 1981. I'm not saying that it never happened, but I'd like to see proof beyond the fact that Diana believed it.


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Diana wasn't paranoid, Charles really was continuing his romance with Mrs. PB after the marriage.
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  #184  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:34 AM
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I believe that they tried to make the marriage work and that therefore Charles stopped his relationship, but not friendship, with Camilla. Diana confirms that Charles reestablished the relationship in 1986 - the same year she began her affair with James Hewitt, according to her. If we are to believe her on one point why not both - even though she isn't the most truthful of people.
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  #185  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:56 AM
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I actually really recommend watching that documentary it's on youtube or if not buying the book if you don't already have it, I find it to be one of the more balanced books about Diana and Charles.
Which documentary on YouTube?
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  #186  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:59 AM
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By the context, I think that it's Diana: Story of a Princess. I have it on video, and it's excellent. It's a fact-based documentary and doesn't go off into speculative realms.


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Which documentary on YouTube?
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  #187  
Old 12-24-2010, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ghost_night554 View Post
You know what I never quite could get my head around was Diana said she received no help now did she mean prior to the marriage aka no "princess school" or during the marriage for example no one telling her well done. Cause if she meant prior to the wedding she did receive some extent of trainingbut it was 2 people who had been sent by the Queen to help her. I cannot remember their names . Maybe no one told her what exactly she was supposed to do but I assume the basics were there such as etiquete and such. Plus I also remember either Bradford or Brown said she was given Welsh lessons but she refused.
Honestly, you know what this sounds like to me? There are times that one has a student that has never learned how to 'be a student' - they never make the transition to understanding what it is that they need to do interiorly to grasp something - a concept, a task, whatever. It takes work. This awakening to 'scholarship' happens around 8 to 10 years of age - its a significant shift for a child. If this shift to an inner responsibility has not taken place - and it can fail to happen for many reasons - then you have a student that sits there and says 'I can't' and waits for the adults to spoon feed them. The work required is never shouldered. The responsibility in learning is never owned. This is what I see in Diana. She never learned to shoulder responsibility for her self or her learning. I really doubt that Diana was left hanging, I really do. It was in every one's interest to make sure this young woman was welcomed and protected.

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I'm watching Panorama right now and she says that in the early years they were very happily married. She doesn't mention Camilla at all. Also in those tapes from her speech trainer she revealed that she thought Charles was seeing Camilla once she followed a pattern she said something like" Itern.. was once every 3 weeks and then I followed a patt", while talking about them "sleeping together" She also says in Panorama that there was a change in pattern in her husband. But she keeps refering to "instinct told her" or "people who cared about our marriage" She also mentions Charles' friends a lot and they're invovlement in the marriage ie "Diana was unstable she should be put in a home" which in hindsight is interesting though I do find his friends have alot of influence on him IMO She's always used the unstable thing with the royals blaming the bulimia on the marriage failure but till now I hadn't really noticed the whole thing about his friends saying it too though from what I read she was getting a little out of control.
I 'read' this as Diana re-inventing the past. At the time she may not have actually thought what she is suggesting. Fact is, Diana and Charles were fighting and the relationship was breaking down rather than building in strength. The responsibility for this failure had to be placed somewhere - it could not be due to her. So once Charles engaged with Camilla again - she had a target she could focus on and the past became reforged. Everything got seen with Camilla as sinister - as Diana was being duped. Maybe she honestly believed this - does not mean it was the case, though.

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She claims that she loved country life...that's news to me...
I had understood that Diana had told Charles, during the 'courtship', that she liked blood sports - evidence for me of how aggressive Diana was in 'snagging' Charles, She apparently lied to him to create a sense of affinity in him for her - because afterwards she made it clear that she did not like blood sports.

The incident relayed about Camilla and the hunt has a concocted feel - it fits in too perfectly with the scenario Diana was trying to portray. She doesn't report that Camilla says anything - Diana just relays an 'impression' that - if true - damns Camilla. Camilla - even if she were so inclined - could not defend herself against an 'impression'.

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I also don't get how she says in the Morton tapes that Charles made her feel inadequate yet in Panorama she said that she herself felt as though she wasn't good enough for the family that she had inflicted the bulimia on herself and during that period those are the thoughts that would go through her mind.
Didn't the bulimia pre-date her marriage, her engagement, her meeting with Charles? I understood that Diana had bulimia problems as a teenager. Is that correct?

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Blah Diana really contradicts herself in these 3 interviews. It's quite a contrast though from the 1985 interview called The Prince and Princess of Wales Talking Personally
Is this the documentary you suggested I view on YouTube?
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  #188  
Old 12-24-2010, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ghost_night554 View Post
Ooh Diana Story of a Princess has 2 versions of an apparent lunch Diana had with Camilla prior to the wedding it's quite interesting actually...either Diana came back and said "it went brilliantly we had a good understanding" or she said " she asked me if I was going to be hunting much...." It also says that she spent a lot of time with Camilla and her husband at her house prior to the wedding which she found odd.

I actually really recommend watching that documentary it's on youtube or if not buying the book if you don't already have it, I find it to be one of the more balanced books about Diana and Charles.
And yet, why would that be? One is getting married to a man, he would be introducing one to his circle of friends, and especial friends. Diana takes every ounce of effort extended to her in those days and twists it into something else, makes it an ordeal of some kind.

Yet this I get - if Diana had an inflated sense of her own position, control and pre-eminence - the loss of her 'control' of Charles would have been stinging. No matter her external status - losing her grip on Charles, or losing any chance of having a grip on him - must have been searing for her pride. In the Royal Circle she had lost her pre-eminence and so she 'fought for her husband' in that famous confrontation with Camilla and Charles at the party. Its really so sad.

Got the documentary you mean! Thank you!
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  #189  
Old 12-24-2010, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
By the context, I think that it's Diana: Story of a Princess. I have it on video, and it's excellent. It's a fact-based documentary and doesn't go off into speculative realms.
Thank you! I see that now - and off I go!
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  #190  
Old 12-24-2010, 05:08 AM
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Hi everyone just finished reading your points and everyone here has some great points and I love being able to have a balanced discussion about this for once. for those who are curious the 3 interviews were

The Prince and Princess of Wales : Talking Personally
Diana Revealed
and...
Diana: The Secret Tapes
The documentary is called Diana, Story of a Princess they can all be viewed on this youtube channel just have to search

http://www.youtube.com/user/princessdianaislove

Tyger I agree, normally I'd find it normal to meet my future husbands friends whether it be a man or woman and Charles was friendly with both Andrew and Camilla. Now unless something had happened pre-marriage that made Diana question Charles I really don't see where her fear came from...I know alot of people who are still friendly with their ex's nothing wrong with that. I think when you enter a relationship especially marriage you must have a level of trust for the partner. I'd understand her fears to an extent but if nothing happened I don't understand why it persisted. As for the country life yes that is exactly what I've read as well.. Now for the bulimia I've heard 2 versions one that it was triggered prior to her dating Charles and the second that it was triggered after the engagement so I have no idea which is true but we do have a common pattern in all the books

To those of you who have read more books then I have has any book given a key example of Charles seeing Camilla ie: while the Princess was pregnant for example because all I've heard is Diana's fear and everything which happened post 1986. Seems to me Diana herself never gave a key example of an event that happened in the early years to prove Charles was continuing his affair. Also does anyone know what she thought of his friends? I've heard she didn't like them and they labeled her unstable. Not sure what other versions may be out there
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  #191  
Old 12-24-2010, 05:47 AM
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Thank you so much, GhostNight! I have begun watching Diana: Story of a Princess. Very interesting - already, in just the first 10 minutes, I have learned new stuff.

I, too, have been enjoying the conversation and appreciating that one can say a perspective, have it listened to and intelligently commented upon. I am particularly keen on understanding the situation and sifting the factual from the fanciful - and this site has been wonderful in that way. Thank you all!
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  #192  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:16 AM
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The irony here was that Diana had her own extra-marital interest at the time that this confrontation took place. I was thinking earlier today about when the rumours of an affair with Hewitt started circulating before Princess in Love was published. One man said that he saw her sitting in Hewitt's barracks room.

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In the Royal Circle she had lost her pre-eminence and so she 'fought for her husband' in that famous confrontation with Camilla and Charles at the party. Its really so sad.
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  #193  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ghost_night554 View Post
Hi everyone just finished reading your points and everyone here has some great points and I love being able to have a balanced discussion about this for once.
Just wanted to say I, too, have enjoyed reading these recent posts on this interesting subject. It's wonderful to see it being discussed calmly and objectively and it's always nice to see new members enlivening a discussion on a topic.
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  #194  
Old 12-24-2010, 08:42 AM
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Yes, I appreciate this as well. My attitude toward Diana is mixed. I realize that she was a very difficult person, unstable and even cruel in some ways; but on the other hand, I believe that she did well when it came to her public activities and that she genuinely cared about the people she tried to help. That's the enigma of Diana. To the downtrodden and outcast, she was wonderful; to those who knew her better, she was sometimes horrid. As much as I realize what a disturbed person she was, I enjoy reading about her and watching videos of her. There was something truly charismatic about her, and charisma can be a dangerous thing when it's not channeled well.


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It's wonderful to see it being discussed calmly and objectively and it's always nice to see new members enlivening a discussion on a topic.
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  #195  
Old 12-27-2010, 06:23 AM
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Seen many documentaries now on Diana...

....as well as on Charles, and it has been very interesting.

First and foremost, Diana created a radiant image. It really was and is compelling. In my younger days I was charmed by the beauty and the veneer of picture perfect grace - and still am when I see her photos. I recall that it just wasn't women who found her compelling - men were covertly watching, too, and my gay friends were all a-gush regarding her. She had charisma, there is no question, and she elicited tremendous affection.

But, it looked too perfect and we wanted to see the 'truth' and the 'truth' got supplied because it sold, big time. I have sometimes thought that the media went so quickly for any hint of scandal because there is something in us that wants to pop the bubble. One looked at the perfect photo ops and the question arose - what are their lives *really* like - and that's the entre Diana gave. She let 'us' in and it was breathtaking. No matter what the 'truth' was, we were being let in and that 'trust' engendered a fierce-some loyalty - even though I suspect those around her who understood the dilemmas would have counseled other choices.

I remain fascinated in how Diana's sense of self interfaced with the media/public. Its as though Diana *is* the public/media perception - that is one reality - and the lens through which everything is else is judged.

Sadly, once Diana started down that path it just unravelled. She could not have known that as she allowed herself to be drawn into the 'cozy' with the press - they had no interest in her really - but the story - the scandal - that would sell, sell to 'us'. Every step she took - believing she was 'liberating' herself - was yet one step closer to losing the comfort of the role and the privilege and the safety of her position. I wince as I watch her self-destruct. She was too young to realize what she had. Someone even suggested in my reading, that she was too young to realize that Charles did love her, and would have loved her more as time went on and their lives deepened with shared experiences. Charles' care of her is unmistakable in the early years of the marriage. She clearly had his attention when you watch the videos - his care is unmistakable - but she didn't realize what she had. Diana is a tragic character - Shakespearean. A flawed heroine.

We will never really know what happened in those first 5 years of marriage that made it go from promise to purgatory. What is clear after one trawls through all the pictures, video, interviews and documentaries (and I am by no means done!) - is that it was not as Diana painted later because she said it first. It could not have been. Much of what she said winds up not making coherent sense, given the contradictions. What was true was that she was too young in so many kinds of ways, inexperienced and with so few inner resources.

In the end, Charles was a good man, handsome and athletic, and charming with her. She fell in love with him after the marriage - and that seems to be a fact. All evidence is that she remained in love with him until the end - which makes sense - but she lost him. Why she lost him is the question. Why the love failed to ripen is the question. That another woman was the temptress in the shadows doesn't quite explain what occurred - because Diana had all the cards. Charles had given her all the cards.

In the end, Charles was a good father, gentle and engaged with his sons. In the end, they loved their father because of who he was with them - watch Harry run to his 'Poppa's' arms in the video below. I mention this because Diana tried to suggest otherwise, tried to prove otherwise, etc. In the end, Charles was intelligent, interested in the world, and involved in significant work. Diana tried to suggest otherwise as in her famous 'going dotty' comment, denigrating her husband. In the end, it may well be, as well, that Camilla was not the lurker in the shadows, was not the ever-present 3rd party in the marriage in those first 5 years. In the end all the denigration and hostility and smearing amounts to nothing in the scheme of what happened.

The Duchess of York has expressed regret at her divorce over the years. I think Diana would have come to that regret as well. I think she would have regretted her actions. It would have been too late but as she turned 40 and beyond I think she would have started to understand - maybe. One can hope that was there for her.

I have enormous compassion for Diana but I have come to feel that she is not what 'the public' thinks she was based on her books and interviews and pictures - and her looks and her smile and her image. I have come to realize that Diana did a lot of damage to many people, not just the Royal Family and Charles. I suspect - had Diana lived - she would have reversed the damage she caused as best she could have, as she matured, grew out (hopefully) of her dysfunctions - though truth to say, she was scarily alone the last years of her life after the divorce. I can't locate where her 'net' was - though someone has said that she and Charles had been developing a friendship in the last months of her life. If so, that would have been her 'net'. I trust, given what I have come to learn about Charles in the past couple of weeks, that Charles would have been there for her, he would have drawn her in from the edge - as a friend - when the moment came and she turned to him, realizing who he was in reality, not as she wanted him to be in her youth. Its a happy ending I imagine for her. It would have been a better ending for Charles, too.
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  #196  
Old 12-27-2010, 03:45 PM
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[QUOTE=Tyger;1181282 I trust, given what I have come to learn about Charles in the past couple of weeks, that Charles would have been there for her, he would have drawn her in from the edge - as a friend - when the moment came and she turned to him, realizing who he was in reality, not as she wanted him to be in her youth. Its a happy ending I imagine for her. It would have been a better ending for Charles, too.[/QUOTE]

Interesting assesment. His grief over her death was very visible and the way he handled the funeral was honurable. Their reconceliation as friends were claimed by many in Diana's circle including Paul Burrell. Had the tables been turned I do think Diana would have done the same for Charles.
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  #197  
Old 12-28-2010, 10:39 PM
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I think in refrence to Camilla I think she herself may have always beleived that Camilla was present even if she wasn't. Which I think most likely had an effect in the eventual dissintigration of her marriage. I mean the only proof Diana gave of them communicating(unless I have missed something) is a phone call prior to the wedding and a gift Prince Charles gave to her prior to the wedding and the cufflinks she gave him back and I think she also said something like 2 photos of Camilla fell out of his wallet on their honeymoon but once the wedding was over Diana never gave any evidence to support her claims especially in the early years. We do have audio from the late 80's so we have proof then but nothing solid prior to that
I can understand where Diana is coming from, I also had a husband that was a cheater. Even if he wasnt activitly sleeping with someone else, his emotions were with someone else. it was never just me and him. it is very hard knowing that he is watching the tv with you but wishing you were someone else. it is enough to drive you insane.
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  #198  
Old 12-28-2010, 10:48 PM
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I can understand where Diana is coming from, I also had a husband that was a cheater. Even if he wasnt activitly sleeping with someone else, his emotions were with someone else. it was never just me and him. it is very hard knowing that he is watching the tv with you but wishing you were someone else. it is enough to drive you insane.
How do you know his emotions were with someone else? The only person who would know that is Charles.

Diana might have believed that but unless Charles was sitting there saying 'I wish I was watching this with Camilla' it was simply in Diana's head.
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Old 12-28-2010, 11:03 PM
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How do you know his emotions were with someone else? The only person who would know that is Charles.

Diana might have believed that but unless Charles was sitting there saying 'I wish I was watching this with Camilla' it was simply in Diana's head.
i by no means intended to guess how charles was feeling, i was talking about my personal experience. when my ex was with me he was distant, didnt talk much barley made eye contact....i just knew.
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Old 12-30-2010, 06:29 PM
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i by no means intended to guess how charles was feeling, i was talking about my personal experience. when my ex was with me he was distant, didnt talk much barley made eye contact....i just knew.
bethaliz is trying to say that woman intuition guided her with her intimate relationship. I think Diana, Princess of Wales was guided too. Maybe the gift that Princess Diana saw for Camilla was the last time for Prince Charles until 1986, but Diana was possesses and would not let it go until it was too late. I am not saying that woman intuition is wrong, most of the time it is RIGHT ON. I just believe Prince Charles in his interview.
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