The Memorial Service: August 31, 2007

[CasiraghiTrio]

http://i17.tinypic.com/5zleg0l.jpg

in this pic are KITTY SPENCER and LOUIS SPENCER with theri father and auntie SARAH SPENCER MCCORQUODALE and those two from the back im not sure who they are

I was thinking the one in back with her head turned away might be Laura Fellowes, and the other mystery one does not look at all like any Spencer, but I hoped you might know. Could be a granddaughter of Peter Shand Kydd or even Raine, or more likely one of Diana's goddaughters. Thanks for answering the question, though.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

And true! She was buried by a tree that she said had been planted by Elizabeth I and Barbara insisted on a cardboard coffin because she believed in protecting the environment. Well, apart from the hairspray of course. I dont think Diana and Barbara could ever have patched things up. The Dame's response when asked about the divorce? "Well, no Englishman likes to eat alone my darling and if you leave your man to eat alone, he'll go and eat with someone else. And that's not all he'll do". And phrases in that mould. Didn't go down well.

Didn't Dame Babs publicly criticize Diana in the early 90s, about the separation and how Diana was conducting herself?
I suppose they never had a too friendly relationship, given that Babs was scratched off the wedding list, supposedly by Diana. Diana seemed to like her novels, though apparently not enough to forgive the grande dame for the public criticism. All the same, I guess it boils down to a trivial matter, as they were never close and the "loss" was small for both concerned.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Dame BC was extremely proud of Diana catching the Prince of Wales and went around saying decadently, "I shall be related to the Queen now". I think the thought terrified the Queen and generally it was felt that she was a bit gauche for the likes of the Royal Family. When Babs didn't get her way, she took comfort in becoming ever so slightly bitter and when the divorce came along she blamed Diana for not performing a certain act on Charles often enough as well as saying that she not of Charles's class. The rule, "Never crap on your own doorstep", might well have been embroidered on a pink tea-towel and given to the old Queen of Romance because it brought her nothing but grief. Raine (keen to keep her hand in) went a bit cold on her, Diana never spoke to her again and the relationship she'd enjoyed with members of the Royal Family dissapeared entirely. She was quite jolly towards the end and in the late 80s was never seen without Margaret, Duchess of Argyll by her side - two peas in a pod if ever a pod could be twin-pea'd. If you never saw the documentary on her, watch Little Britain - the Dame Sally Markham sketches are actually Dame Barbara and her typist Miss Grace. BC would lay on a chez with a poodle in one hand and a box of Black Magic in the other, churning out a novel per week - trouble is, not one of them was any good! RIP Babs.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

She was quite jolly towards the end and in the late 80s was never seen without Margaret, Duchess of Argyll by her side - two peas in a pod if ever a pod could be twin-pea'd.

So that is why Lady Colin Campbell has so much gossip on Babs?
Isn't Margaret, Duchess of Argyll LCC's mother-in-law?

 

[sophie25]

I agree with Beatrixfan regarding the tone of the occasion. Looking at the way the guests were dressed there does seem to have been some confusion as to whether the emphasis was on "memorial" or "thanksgiving". None of the Royals came in black so they clearly understood it to be a day of thanksgiving and dressed accordingly. Thus I also don't see a problem with Princess Michael's outfit as it was entirley appropriate for such an occasion as was, for example, Lady Helen Taylor's who also chose a summery outfit and flower bedecked hat.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

None of the Royals came in black so they clearly understood it to be a day of thanksgiving and dressed accordingly. .

Princess Alexandra went dressed in black.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

The Seating

Royal side
First row: HRH Prince William, Her Majesty the Queen, HRH the Duke of Edinburgh, HRH the Prince of Wales

Second row: HRH Princess Beatrice, HRH Princess Eugenie, TRH the Earl and Countess of Wessex, HRH the Princess Royal, Vice Admiral Laurence, Peter Phillips, TRH the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester

Third row: TRH the Duke and Duchess of Kent, the Earl and Countess of St Andrews, Baron Downpatrick**, Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor

Fourth row: Lady Helen Taylor*, Timothy Taylor, Prince and Princess Michael of Kent, Lord Frederick and Lady Gabriella Windsor, Princess Alexandra the Hon Lady Ogilvy

Fifth row: Gordon Brown*, Sarah Brown, Tony Blair, Cherie Blair, John Major, Norma Major, Viscount and Viscountess Linley, Lady Sarah and Daniel Chatto, the Earl of Snowdon

*It appeared in some videos and pictures that Lady Helen Taylor and Gordon Brown were seated beside each other (oddly) because the Prime Minister was directly behind her.
**Baron Downpatrick was one of the twelve (of a total of seventeen) godchildren of Diana who attended the service.


Spencer side
First row: Prince Harry, Lady Sarah and Neil McCorquodale, the Earl Spencer, Lady Jane Fellowes, Baron Fellowes

Second row: Hon. Laura Fellowes, Hon. Alexander Fellowes, Hon. Eleanor Fellowes, Emily McCorquodale, George McCorquodale, Celia McCorquodale, Lady Kitty Spencer, Lady Eliza Spencer, Lady Amelia Spencer, Viscount Althorp

The rest I don't know.... I wonder where Raine was seated.

 

[bbb]

Really? Where can I see this?

i saw the exchange also watching live after the service. charles was to the side by a pillar and the queen was in front of him (back/side to camera) and he definitely shook his head several times with a unfriendly look on his face and i think i saw "no I...? won't??...??" with a shake several times- very definite. at the time i wondered if she was asking about walking the rope line across the street. but i noticed the exchange and it didn't seem a happy one, i'm sure nerves and emotions were on edge and doesn't mean much. i wondered why no one walked across the street to shake hands (don't they usually?) aside from the one heckler they seemed respectful (not only diana fans). as nasty as the "should camilla go thread" got, i wouldn't be surprised if their wasn't as much behind the scenes of the palace.
all i know is Diana has got to be smiling and so proud of her sons, hopefully she can finally be left to rest in peace. The Queens serene dignity always impresses me and it was lovely to see most of the royal family at the service supporting the princes.

 

[smgaries]

I was thinking the one in back with her head turned away might be Laura Fellowes, and the other mystery one does not look at all like any Spencer, but I hoped you might know. Could be a granddaughter of Peter Shand Kydd or even Raine, or more likely one of Diana's goddaughters. Thanks for answering the question, though.

those 2 ladies behind them non of those are the children of CHARLES, SARAH, and that of JANE

 

[smgaries]

Spencer side
First row: Prince Harry, Lady Sarah and Neil McCorquodale, the Earl Spencer, Lady Jane Fellowes, Baron Fellowes

Second row: Hon. Laura Fellowes, Hon. Alexander Fellowes, Hon. Eleanor Fellowes, Emily McCorquodale, George McCorquodale, Celia McCorquodale, Lady Kitty Spencer, Lady Eliza Spencer, Lady Amelia Spencer, Viscount Althorp

behind LAURA FELLOWES is FRANCES SHAND KYDDs sister for sure==i remember seeing her at FRANCES funeral

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Corrections & additions to The Guest List
1. Should be removed: James & Julia Ogilvy, and the Mowatts
2. Addition: Hon. Mary Shand, sister of Hon. Frances Shand Kydd
3. Addition: Edward, Baron Downpatrick, godson of Diana

*My apologies, for I can't edit the guest list anymore. I have not the powers.

 

[Elspeth]

I've edited it for you, but I just wanted to check. Mary Shand? Did Diana's aunt marry into Camilla's family or something?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Isn't Margaret, Duchess of Argyll LCC's mother-in-law?

No. Margaret divorced the Duke of Argyll in '63 and Georgie married Colin Campbell in 1974, divorced in 1975. She did count Barbara Cartland as a friend though (LCC that is).

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I've edited it for you, but I just wanted to check. Mary Shand? Did Diana's aunt marry into Camilla's family or something?

Ooops, sorry Elspeth, it was a mistake. Mary was born with the name Burke Roche like Frances and their brother, married/divorced a couple of times, according to Wikipedia: Frances Shand Kydd.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Just wanted to add that I doubt there will be another memorial for Diana anytime - neither the current queen nor the future king Charles and his queen Camilla will want to go to another one, that's for sure.

 

[COUNTESS]

I have learned never to say never. The princes were in charge of this, who knows what they might want to do. Will they get support from the RF for this, I doubt it. But again, I never say never.

 

[selrahc4]

I never said she was a bad woman or they were bad people, they tend to show little emotion. Their son, Charles, has been the one who said that they were cold and inaccessible. She shook his hand when he was a small child, when she returned from a trip. Without his nanny, Mabel Anderson, whom he adored, he knew little affection. I know she was brought up that way, but times change. Charles shows his sons love and affection. He loved and married a woman who has given him the love and mothering he has missed.
By the way, being old doesn't remove emotion from you, they never had it.
Diana was a problem, but they were also a problem for her. She was there, not just for the love of her grandsons, but "public opinion" to which they have become very sensitive to.

I doubt that HM and HRH are emotionless or "never had" emotions, that would mean they are less than human. They are reserved and undemonstrative of their emotions in public (whether they are in private -- and by that I mean really private, without staff around -- I have no idea). It's one of the things I admire them for. I suspect they would think it rude, and embarrassing for those around them who are responsible for organizing and hosting the events they attend.

Is there any proof that Charles said they were "cold and inaccesible"? Is this from a source that was putting words in his mouth, or changing the wording of something?

This story about the Queen shaking his hand upon returning from a trip when he was small has had currency for years. Some have even spoken of the "well known photograph" depicting it. I've been following news about the Queen and her family since 1957. I've never seen this photo...ever. Exactly when and where is this supposed to have taken place? What trip was it?

Back to to service. I thought it was well and properly done.

My most memorable part is the reception the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh received on arrival with cheers and applause.

I'd guess the Princes are happy and proud of they way it went, plus probably being relieved that it's over. I think they were trying to well and truly draw a line (though not to forget, not to airbrush anyone out of history) so that they can get on with their adult lives as individuals. I heartily wish them well.

 

[pinkie40]

In the April Matt Lauer interview (it was re-broadcast 3 times yesterday) in conjunction with the memorial concert, both William and Harry mentioned, in answering Matt's question of why they didn't cry when walking behind Diana's coffin, that their public face is different than their private grief.

I still am amazed by THEIR resolve.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

This story about the Queen shaking his hand upon returning from a trip when he was small has had currency for years. Some have even spoken of the "well known photograph" depicting it. I've been following news about the Queen and her family since 1957. I've never seen this photo...ever. Exactly when and where is this supposed to have taken place? What trip was it?

I wish I had Pimlott's book handy but I had borrowed it from the library. I know he mentions this oft-cited return from a Commonwealth tour when she greeted Prince Charles in a supposedly-heartless way, although I don't remember the context in which Pimlott discusses the story. I am thinking the Commonwealth tour in question was the one of the coronation year which the Queen and the Duke had began before the accession. According to the story (if I am thinking of the same incident to which Countess referred) Prince Charles ran up the gangway to HM just as a diplomat was going up to greet her, and she said, "No, not you, dear," to her son.
Personally, I can imagine the Queen doing this, but not in the heartless way that is portrayed. I think she must have said it in her classic joking manner, and I also think it was appropriate for her to be teaching Prince Charles how to restrain himself and behave in public. It seems to me that all royal children have to learn this. Even Diana, who is called very warm and affectionate mother, had to teach Prince William and Prince Harry this kind of restraint from an early age. Otherwise, they could not appear at events like the Trooping or sit for formal portraits and the like, because they would be too bad. Thus, it is wholly unfair to gage a person's capacity for emotion and parenting style based on the "piggyface" expressions that are undertaken for public consumption.

 

[pinkie40]

Was Mary Robertson, the woman who hired Diana as a nanny for her son Patrick, invited/seen at the memorial?

 

[COUNTESS]

I doubt that HM and HRH are emotionless or "never had" emotions, that would mean they are less than human. They are reserved and undemonstrative of their emotions in public (whether they are in private -- and by that I mean really private, without staff around -- I have no idea). It's one of the things I admire them for. I suspect they would think it rude, and embarrassing for those around them who are responsible for organizing and hosting the events they attend.

Is there any proof that Charles said they were "cold and inaccesible"? Is this from a source that was putting words in his mouth, or changing the wording of something?

This story about the Queen shaking his hand upon returning from a trip when he was small has had currency for years. Some have even spoken of the "well known photograph" depicting it. I've been following news about the Queen and her family since 1957. I've never seen this photo...ever. Exactly when and where is this supposed to have taken place? What trip was it?

Back to to service. I thought it was well and properly done.

My most memorable part is the reception the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh received on arrival with cheers and applause.

I'd guess the Princes are happy and proud of they way it went, plus probably being relieved that it's over. I think they were trying to well and truly draw a line (though not to forget, not to airbrush anyone out of history) so that they can get on with their adult lives as individuals. I heartily wish them well.

Charles said they were remote, etc in his biography written by Joanthan Dimbleby. His sister Anne was furious. Each saw their parent in their own way or at least, Anne is very circumspect.

I have seen the photo of her shaking his little hand. That doesn't mean she didn't love him. It is the way she thought she should be. It doesn't make her bad, but it, not that incident, but the remoteness, obviously affected Charles.

I think they wanted a tribute to their mother, which when the incident occurred they were too young to control. They are truly her next of kin. Not her brother, of course he is, but in actual fact, had they been of age, it would have been their call. I think they wanted to tell the world how they felt about her. They did it with great aplomb. Very nicely done.

 

[selrahc4]

I wish I had Pimlott's book handy but I had borrowed it from the library. I know he mentions this oft-cited return from a Commonwealth tour when she greeted Prince Charles in a supposedly-heartless way, although I don't remember the context in which Pimlott discusses the story. I am thinking the Commonwealth tour in question was the one of the coronation year which the Queen and the Duke had began before the accession. According to the story (if I am thinking of the same incident to which Countess referred) Prince Charles ran up the gangway to HM just as a diplomat was going up to greet her, and she said, "No, not you, dear," to her son.
Personally, I can imagine the Queen doing this, but not in the heartless way that is portrayed. I think she must have said it in her classic joking manner,
<snip>
it is wholly unfair to gage a person's capacity for emotion and parenting style based on the "piggyface" expressions that are undertaken for public consumption.

Yes, I have read Pimlott and other sources which attribute something of the same quote for that reunion. It wouldn't have been quite the way you remember it, because Charles and Anne were already in the Royal Yacht Britannia having sailed to Malta and then Tobruk, where the reunion took place. The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh joined the yacht after their last engagement for the day. It was, as a matter of fact, the first time they were able to see it in its completed state for that was its offical maiden voyage. The children were along for the rest of that Commonwealth tour which saw the yacht return in triumph up the Thames in May 1954.

I apologize for diverging from the title of this thread. I'm still irritated that there is continual comment from all sorts of quarters about having seen this non-existent photograph.

Back to the service: I liked seeing so many relatives together and seemingly pleased to see each other.

 

[selrahc4]

Charles said they were remote, etc in his biography written by Joanthan Dimbleby

Did Charles (Charles, not Dimbleby) say "remote" or "cold and inaccesilble", or both? I'm not waging war with you, Countess, but am just curious if any of these were words Charles himself actually used in this context.

(Elspeth, I'm truly contrite about taking this O/T...is there a rapping-knuckles-with-ruler icon?)

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Was Mary Robertson, the woman who hired Diana as a nanny for her son Patrick, invited/seen at the memorial?

She seems like a sweet woman. She has spoken to the press very kindly and (seemingly) very honestly about her experience of knowing Diana.
The trouble is......... she was one of the friends of Diana who was given a license by her to assist Andrew Morton.
Which raises another interesting question..... were the Bartholomews invited?

 

[pinkie40]

She seems like a sweet woman. She has spoken to the press very kindly and (seemingly) very honestly about her experience of knowing Diana.
The trouble is......... she was one of the friends of Diana who was given a license by her to assist Andrew Morton.
Which raises another interesting question..... were the Bartholomews invited?

Mary also wrote a book about Diana.

 

[LOSSEAN]

I
This story about the Queen shaking his hand upon returning from a trip when he was small has had currency for years. Some have even spoken of the "well known photograph" depicting it. I've been following news about the Queen and her family since 1957. I've never seen this photo...ever. Exactly when and where is this supposed to have taken place? What trip was it?

.

... if from 1957, it is possible you would have missed it because in 1957 HRH Prince Charles would have been nine years old but the picture was of a much younger boy. My father, a staunch royalist as I am, kept newspaper cuttings and those booklets that were released from time to time with beautiful pictures of (then) current royal events. If I remember correctly it was after a tour of the royal couple to Canada. There was a picture of that famous handshake and another of the bright-eyed young prince talking excitedly to his mother who was almost bent double listening to her son, with his grandmother smiling proudly at him by his side. The Duke was hovering in the background. But there was no picture of a hug. I knew that they would not do that publicly.

That is why, I just loved the picture of Diana greeting her sons with outstretched arms when she came aboard the Britannia in Canada and William leaping into her arms with Harry close behind.

 

[COUNTESS]

Did Charles (Charles, not Dimbleby) say "remote" or "cold and inaccesilble", or both? I'm not waging war with you, Countess, but am just curious if any of these were words Charles himself actually used in this context.

(Elspeth, I'm truly contrite about taking this O/T...is there a rapping-knuckles-with-ruler icon?)

I do not know who initiated the exact words. Charles obviously condoned it. Otherwise he would have taken exception, or not allowed it to come out in print, since he, officially, was part of this biography.His sister was quite angry with him for it. Philip was quite upset,too. Charles, I think, is more sensitive, be that as it may and did suffer from this cool handed treatment. He also felt abandoned to the schooling he received, which he hated. It is sad when you think about it, because, yes, he has received many perks from his position, but also lost many things. In Camilla he has found his mother, etc. I, too, appologize for wondering off the path, but felt the need to answer.

 

[Elspeth]

Did Charles (Charles, not Dimbleby) say "remote" or "cold and inaccesilble", or both? I'm not waging war with you, Countess, but am just curious if any of these were words Charles himself actually used in this context.

(Elspeth, I'm truly contrite about taking this O/T...is there a rapping-knuckles-with-ruler icon?)

Well, there's one of these, if it'll make you feel better:

I've checked Dimbleby's book, and Dimbleby refers to the Queen as "not indifferent so much as detached" when referring to her lack of intervention when the Duke of Edinburgh was laying into Charles for one reason or other. One passage is sort of interesting because of how history seems to be repeating: "Observing friends were also frustrated by the failure of the child's mother to intervene by protective word or gesture. She was not indifferent so much as detached, deciding that in domestic matters she would subnit entirely to the father's will. It was the more perplexing because they otherwise had every reason to believe that both parents had a deep if inarticulate love for their son, and that this love was reciprocated." He could be describing George V and Queen Mary and their relationship with their eldest son, and look at the parallels between the two Princes of Wales in their love lives.

 

[selrahc4]

... if from 1957, it is possible you would have missed it because in 1957 HRH Prince Charles would have been nine years old but the picture was of a much younger boy. My father, a staunch royalist as I am, kept newspaper cuttings and those booklets that were released from time to time with beautiful pictures of (then) current royal events. If I remember correctly it was after a tour of the royal couple to Canada. There was a picture of that famous handshake and another of the bright-eyed young prince talking excitedly to his mother who was almost bent double listening to her son, with his grandmother smiling proudly at him by his side. The Duke was hovering in the background. But there was no picture of a hug. I knew that they would not do that publicly.

LOL. Just because I began my interest in 1957 doesn't mean I don't possess or have never looked at film or cuttings or articles or books which were published prior to that.
What I meant was that I've spent nearly 50 years reviewing and researching things because I was interested. I tend to agree with you that it was the return from Canada in November 1951 which has lead to the false assertion of the handshake greeting. There isn't a photo which shows it. I have video of the occasion. The Princess gets off the train, greets her mother, reaches out to Prince Charles and touches either his cheek or his head and then bends over and gives him a kiss either on the cheek or his hair . There was NO handshake. I realize this isn't the kind of swoop in pick me up kind of greeting that Diana would have given, but it certainly isn't any formal cold handshake greeting either.


(Oh well, I wasn't getting a donut anyway...)

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Well, however you slice it, I guess the important thing to remember is that HM does not have to prove to us she is a loving mother/grandmother by public gestures and expressions. She proves it through her actions. The good grandmother attended her grandsons' service of thanksgiving. For the most part, she has always been patient and allowing with her family, and the last one to put obstacles in their way.