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  #221  
Old 09-02-2007, 02:35 PM
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Corrections & additions to The Guest List
1. Should be removed: James & Julia Ogilvy, and the Mowatts
2. Addition: Hon. Mary Shand, sister of Hon. Frances Shand Kydd
3. Addition: Edward, Baron Downpatrick, godson of Diana

*My apologies, for I can't edit the guest list anymore. I have not the powers.
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  #222  
Old 09-02-2007, 06:01 PM
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I've edited it for you, but I just wanted to check. Mary Shand? Did Diana's aunt marry into Camilla's family or something?
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  #223  
Old 09-02-2007, 06:12 PM
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Isn't Margaret, Duchess of Argyll LCC's mother-in-law?
No. Margaret divorced the Duke of Argyll in '63 and Georgie married Colin Campbell in 1974, divorced in 1975. She did count Barbara Cartland as a friend though (LCC that is).
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  #224  
Old 09-03-2007, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I've edited it for you, but I just wanted to check. Mary Shand? Did Diana's aunt marry into Camilla's family or something?
Ooops, sorry Elspeth, it was a mistake. Mary was born with the name Burke Roche like Frances and their brother, married/divorced a couple of times, according to Wikipedia: Frances Shand Kydd.
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  #225  
Old 09-03-2007, 12:56 PM
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Just wanted to add that I doubt there will be another memorial for Diana anytime - neither the current queen nor the future king Charles and his queen Camilla will want to go to another one, that's for sure.
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  #226  
Old 09-03-2007, 01:29 PM
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I have learned never to say never. The princes were in charge of this, who knows what they might want to do. Will they get support from the RF for this, I doubt it. But again, I never say never.
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  #227  
Old 09-03-2007, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
I never said she was a bad woman or they were bad people, they tend to show little emotion. Their son, Charles, has been the one who said that they were cold and inaccessible. She shook his hand when he was a small child, when she returned from a trip. Without his nanny, Mabel Anderson, whom he adored, he knew little affection. I know she was brought up that way, but times change. Charles shows his sons love and affection. He loved and married a woman who has given him the love and mothering he has missed.
By the way, being old doesn't remove emotion from you, they never had it.
Diana was a problem, but they were also a problem for her. She was there, not just for the love of her grandsons, but "public opinion" to which they have become very sensitive to.
I doubt that HM and HRH are emotionless or "never had" emotions, that would mean they are less than human. They are reserved and undemonstrative of their emotions in public (whether they are in private -- and by that I mean really private, without staff around -- I have no idea). It's one of the things I admire them for. I suspect they would think it rude, and embarrassing for those around them who are responsible for organizing and hosting the events they attend.

Is there any proof that Charles said they were "cold and inaccesible"? Is this from a source that was putting words in his mouth, or changing the wording of something?

This story about the Queen shaking his hand upon returning from a trip when he was small has had currency for years. Some have even spoken of the "well known photograph" depicting it. I've been following news about the Queen and her family since 1957. I've never seen this photo...ever. Exactly when and where is this supposed to have taken place? What trip was it?

Back to to service. I thought it was well and properly done.

My most memorable part is the reception the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh received on arrival with cheers and applause.

I'd guess the Princes are happy and proud of they way it went, plus probably being relieved that it's over. I think they were trying to well and truly draw a line (though not to forget, not to airbrush anyone out of history) so that they can get on with their adult lives as individuals. I heartily wish them well.
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  #228  
Old 09-03-2007, 05:02 PM
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In the April Matt Lauer interview (it was re-broadcast 3 times yesterday) in conjunction with the memorial concert, both William and Harry mentioned, in answering Matt's question of why they didn't cry when walking behind Diana's coffin, that their public face is different than their private grief.

I still am amazed by THEIR resolve.
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  #229  
Old 09-03-2007, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by selrahc4 View Post
This story about the Queen shaking his hand upon returning from a trip when he was small has had currency for years. Some have even spoken of the "well known photograph" depicting it. I've been following news about the Queen and her family since 1957. I've never seen this photo...ever. Exactly when and where is this supposed to have taken place? What trip was it?
I wish I had Pimlott's book handy but I had borrowed it from the library. I know he mentions this oft-cited return from a Commonwealth tour when she greeted Prince Charles in a supposedly-heartless way, although I don't remember the context in which Pimlott discusses the story. I am thinking the Commonwealth tour in question was the one of the coronation year which the Queen and the Duke had began before the accession. According to the story (if I am thinking of the same incident to which Countess referred) Prince Charles ran up the gangway to HM just as a diplomat was going up to greet her, and she said, "No, not you, dear," to her son.
Personally, I can imagine the Queen doing this, but not in the heartless way that is portrayed. I think she must have said it in her classic joking manner, and I also think it was appropriate for her to be teaching Prince Charles how to restrain himself and behave in public. It seems to me that all royal children have to learn this. Even Diana, who is called very warm and affectionate mother, had to teach Prince William and Prince Harry this kind of restraint from an early age. Otherwise, they could not appear at events like the Trooping or sit for formal portraits and the like, because they would be too bad. Thus, it is wholly unfair to gage a person's capacity for emotion and parenting style based on the "piggyface" expressions that are undertaken for public consumption.
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  #230  
Old 09-03-2007, 05:16 PM
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Was Mary Robertson, the woman who hired Diana as a nanny for her son Patrick, invited/seen at the memorial?
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  #231  
Old 09-03-2007, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by selrahc4 View Post
I doubt that HM and HRH are emotionless or "never had" emotions, that would mean they are less than human. They are reserved and undemonstrative of their emotions in public (whether they are in private -- and by that I mean really private, without staff around -- I have no idea). It's one of the things I admire them for. I suspect they would think it rude, and embarrassing for those around them who are responsible for organizing and hosting the events they attend.

Is there any proof that Charles said they were "cold and inaccesible"? Is this from a source that was putting words in his mouth, or changing the wording of something?

This story about the Queen shaking his hand upon returning from a trip when he was small has had currency for years. Some have even spoken of the "well known photograph" depicting it. I've been following news about the Queen and her family since 1957. I've never seen this photo...ever. Exactly when and where is this supposed to have taken place? What trip was it?

Back to to service. I thought it was well and properly done.

My most memorable part is the reception the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh received on arrival with cheers and applause.

I'd guess the Princes are happy and proud of they way it went, plus probably being relieved that it's over. I think they were trying to well and truly draw a line (though not to forget, not to airbrush anyone out of history) so that they can get on with their adult lives as individuals. I heartily wish them well.

Charles said they were remote, etc in his biography written by Joanthan Dimbleby. His sister Anne was furious. Each saw their parent in their own way or at least, Anne is very circumspect.

I have seen the photo of her shaking his little hand. That doesn't mean she didn't love him. It is the way she thought she should be. It doesn't make her bad, but it, not that incident, but the remoteness, obviously affected Charles.

I think they wanted a tribute to their mother, which when the incident occurred they were too young to control. They are truly her next of kin. Not her brother, of course he is, but in actual fact, had they been of age, it would have been their call. I think they wanted to tell the world how they felt about her. They did it with great aplomb. Very nicely done.
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  #232  
Old 09-03-2007, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio View Post
I wish I had Pimlott's book handy but I had borrowed it from the library. I know he mentions this oft-cited return from a Commonwealth tour when she greeted Prince Charles in a supposedly-heartless way, although I don't remember the context in which Pimlott discusses the story. I am thinking the Commonwealth tour in question was the one of the coronation year which the Queen and the Duke had began before the accession. According to the story (if I am thinking of the same incident to which Countess referred) Prince Charles ran up the gangway to HM just as a diplomat was going up to greet her, and she said, "No, not you, dear," to her son.
Personally, I can imagine the Queen doing this, but not in the heartless way that is portrayed. I think she must have said it in her classic joking manner,
<snip>
it is wholly unfair to gage a person's capacity for emotion and parenting style based on the "piggyface" expressions that are undertaken for public consumption.
Yes, I have read Pimlott and other sources which attribute something of the same quote for that reunion. It wouldn't have been quite the way you remember it, because Charles and Anne were already in the Royal Yacht Britannia having sailed to Malta and then Tobruk, where the reunion took place. The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh joined the yacht after their last engagement for the day. It was, as a matter of fact, the first time they were able to see it in its completed state for that was its offical maiden voyage. The children were along for the rest of that Commonwealth tour which saw the yacht return in triumph up the Thames in May 1954.

I apologize for diverging from the title of this thread. I'm still irritated that there is continual comment from all sorts of quarters about having seen this non-existent photograph.

Back to the service: I liked seeing so many relatives together and seemingly pleased to see each other.
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  #233  
Old 09-03-2007, 05:42 PM
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Charles said they were remote, etc in his biography written by Joanthan Dimbleby
Did Charles (Charles, not Dimbleby) say "remote" or "cold and inaccesilble", or both? I'm not waging war with you, Countess, but am just curious if any of these were words Charles himself actually used in this context.

(Elspeth, I'm truly contrite about taking this O/T...is there a rapping-knuckles-with-ruler icon?)
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  #234  
Old 09-03-2007, 08:09 PM
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Was Mary Robertson, the woman who hired Diana as a nanny for her son Patrick, invited/seen at the memorial?
She seems like a sweet woman. She has spoken to the press very kindly and (seemingly) very honestly about her experience of knowing Diana.
The trouble is......... she was one of the friends of Diana who was given a license by her to assist Andrew Morton.
Which raises another interesting question..... were the Bartholomews invited?
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  #235  
Old 09-03-2007, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio View Post
She seems like a sweet woman. She has spoken to the press very kindly and (seemingly) very honestly about her experience of knowing Diana.
The trouble is......... she was one of the friends of Diana who was given a license by her to assist Andrew Morton.
Which raises another interesting question..... were the Bartholomews invited?
Mary also wrote a book about Diana.
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  #236  
Old 09-03-2007, 09:53 PM
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I
This story about the Queen shaking his hand upon returning from a trip when he was small has had currency for years. Some have even spoken of the "well known photograph" depicting it. I've been following news about the Queen and her family since 1957. I've never seen this photo...ever. Exactly when and where is this supposed to have taken place? What trip was it?

.
... if from 1957, it is possible you would have missed it because in 1957 HRH Prince Charles would have been nine years old but the picture was of a much younger boy. My father, a staunch royalist as I am, kept newspaper cuttings and those booklets that were released from time to time with beautiful pictures of (then) current royal events. If I remember correctly it was after a tour of the royal couple to Canada. There was a picture of that famous handshake and another of the bright-eyed young prince talking excitedly to his mother who was almost bent double listening to her son, with his grandmother smiling proudly at him by his side. The Duke was hovering in the background. But there was no picture of a hug. I knew that they would not do that publicly.

That is why, I just loved the picture of Diana greeting her sons with outstretched arms when she came aboard the Britannia in Canada and William leaping into her arms with Harry close behind.
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  #237  
Old 09-03-2007, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by selrahc4 View Post
Did Charles (Charles, not Dimbleby) say "remote" or "cold and inaccesilble", or both? I'm not waging war with you, Countess, but am just curious if any of these were words Charles himself actually used in this context.

(Elspeth, I'm truly contrite about taking this O/T...is there a rapping-knuckles-with-ruler icon?)
I do not know who initiated the exact words. Charles obviously condoned it. Otherwise he would have taken exception, or not allowed it to come out in print, since he, officially, was part of this biography.His sister was quite angry with him for it. Philip was quite upset,too. Charles, I think, is more sensitive, be that as it may and did suffer from this cool handed treatment. He also felt abandoned to the schooling he received, which he hated. It is sad when you think about it, because, yes, he has received many perks from his position, but also lost many things. In Camilla he has found his mother, etc. I, too, appologize for wondering off the path, but felt the need to answer.
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  #238  
Old 09-03-2007, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by selrahc4 View Post
Did Charles (Charles, not Dimbleby) say "remote" or "cold and inaccesilble", or both? I'm not waging war with you, Countess, but am just curious if any of these were words Charles himself actually used in this context.

(Elspeth, I'm truly contrite about taking this O/T...is there a rapping-knuckles-with-ruler icon?)
Well, there's one of these, if it'll make you feel better:

I've checked Dimbleby's book, and Dimbleby refers to the Queen as "not indifferent so much as detached" when referring to her lack of intervention when the Duke of Edinburgh was laying into Charles for one reason or other. One passage is sort of interesting because of how history seems to be repeating: "Observing friends were also frustrated by the failure of the child's mother to intervene by protective word or gesture. She was not indifferent so much as detached, deciding that in domestic matters she would subnit entirely to the father's will. It was the more perplexing because they otherwise had every reason to believe that both parents had a deep if inarticulate love for their son, and that this love was reciprocated." He could be describing George V and Queen Mary and their relationship with their eldest son, and look at the parallels between the two Princes of Wales in their love lives.
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  #239  
Old 09-03-2007, 11:32 PM
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... if from 1957, it is possible you would have missed it because in 1957 HRH Prince Charles would have been nine years old but the picture was of a much younger boy. My father, a staunch royalist as I am, kept newspaper cuttings and those booklets that were released from time to time with beautiful pictures of (then) current royal events. If I remember correctly it was after a tour of the royal couple to Canada. There was a picture of that famous handshake and another of the bright-eyed young prince talking excitedly to his mother who was almost bent double listening to her son, with his grandmother smiling proudly at him by his side. The Duke was hovering in the background. But there was no picture of a hug. I knew that they would not do that publicly.
LOL. Just because I began my interest in 1957 doesn't mean I don't possess or have never looked at film or cuttings or articles or books which were published prior to that.
What I meant was that I've spent nearly 50 years reviewing and researching things because I was interested. I tend to agree with you that it was the return from Canada in November 1951 which has lead to the false assertion of the handshake greeting. There isn't a photo which shows it. I have video of the occasion. The Princess gets off the train, greets her mother, reaches out to Prince Charles and touches either his cheek or his head and then bends over and gives him a kiss either on the cheek or his hair . There was NO handshake. I realize this isn't the kind of swoop in pick me up kind of greeting that Diana would have given, but it certainly isn't any formal cold handshake greeting either.


(Oh well, I wasn't getting a donut anyway...)
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  #240  
Old 09-03-2007, 11:43 PM
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Well, however you slice it, I guess the important thing to remember is that HM does not have to prove to us she is a loving mother/grandmother by public gestures and expressions. She proves it through her actions. The good grandmother attended her grandsons' service of thanksgiving. For the most part, she has always been patient and allowing with her family, and the last one to put obstacles in their way.
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