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  #1221  
Old 02-22-2008, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Everything was so terribly haphazard and impulsive-driven that last evening in Paris. It would have taken a whole tribe of James-Bond-type super-villains to plan an accident that night.
And don't forget MoneyPenny.
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  #1222  
Old 02-22-2008, 11:12 PM
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Cool

"What difference would it have made to TRF or government, IF Diana had married Dodi? None.
Would it have mattered IF she married a muslim, NO. The only 'damage', if any would have been to Diana's image.
Would it have mattered IF after such a short 'relationship', Diana had been pregnant, again only to Diana's image."


Just wondering - do you think her image would have been hurt by marrying a Muslim? It seems that Hasnat Khan was a well respected surgeon. The issue I think would have been with her marrying Dodi Fayed. And even though Mohammed Al Fayed changed his tune about his deathbed conversation with Diana - his lies were still public record and I would have loved to have seen him challenged on them. He is so busy calling everyone else a liar - it would have been nice to see him caught in his own game.

I, too am glad that Paul Burrell seems to be getting his "come uppance" - he is incredibly full of himself. It is too bad that he couldn't and wouldn't keep his mouth shut from the beginning.
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  #1223  
Old 02-22-2008, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by TheTruth View Post
Well many people admired her work and were ready to help her in any of her charities and campaigns. Landmines is a very serious matter for countries like the US and if she had really wanted to stop it, she could have. In fact, she did post-mortem so the theory of her being killed because of her engagement against landmines is illogical.
I think if Diana had continued with politically-controversial causes, the Queen may have at one point been forced to take the Princess of Wales title away from Diana. The title is, by history, too tied to the Royal Family for it to get associated in people's minds with a political cause when by her very role as constitutional monarch, the Queen has forbid herself and her family from making a controversial political statement. Its true that Diana was no longer a member of the Royal Family after the divorce but she still held the Princess of Wales title and an elevated rank in the order of precedence so that a lot of people could understandably still be of the impression that she was part of the Royal Family.

And the idea of a member of the Royal Family making political waves could only hurt the Queen - not help the Queen. So I do think that Diana could have forced the Queen into a corner whereby Her Majesty would have been compelled to take away her title.

That is, if she had kept up with these types of campaigns.
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  #1224  
Old 02-23-2008, 12:18 AM
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That's right, Ysbel, about the Princess of Wales title and the political controversy business. When the divorce was announced, I remember that Diana was still to be considered a member of the Royal Family even though divorced (maybe because she was the mother of the future king?). There was an item in ROYALTY MAGAZINE about Diana applauding after a particular speech being made, and that was taken as a political act at the time.





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I think if Diana had continued with politically-controversial causes, the Queen may have at one point been forced to take the Princess of Wales title away from Diana.
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  #1225  
Old 02-23-2008, 12:21 AM
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I don't think that her image would have really been hurt by marrying a Muslim as long as the man was a respectable person. There was just something about Dodi Fayed that seemed wrong, even without his father's "baggage."


Quote:
Originally Posted by judith14011;733200[FONT=Book Antiqua
Just wondering - do you think her image would have been hurt by marrying a Muslim? It seems that Hasnat Khan was a well respected surgeon. The issue I think would have been with her marrying Dodi Fayed. [/FONT].
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  #1226  
Old 02-23-2008, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Ya think?
Winnner of the inaugural "Extreme Brevity with Unerring Accuracy" Award!
Why thank you

Let's face it he has the upper echelons of the RF,(but he wouldn't dare involve the Queen !) MI6, The British PM at the time, ambulance drivers, Henri Paul? hospitals and doctors all conspiring to stage an accident with military precision within a couple of hours if you believe his rantings of Diana being pregnant and about to marry Dodi being the reason they were "murdered".

I'm sorry it just doesn't add up to me

If you are going to murder some-one you don't stage an accident with the possibility of the occupants of the car surviving and telling the tale.

Trouble is, he wants only one outcome from this inquest I don't think he is going to get it, then somehow I think he is going to have to be gagged by Court Order at least otherwise he is NEVER going to shut up
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  #1227  
Old 02-23-2008, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I don't think that her image would have really been hurt by marrying a Muslim as long as the man was a respectable person. There was just something about Dodi Fayed that seemed wrong, even without his father's "baggage."
That's an interesting point, Mermaid. I wonder though whether Dodi was the first one to seethe with resentment against the English establishment rather than his father.

Before Diana, Dodi was best known for producing a remarkable movie, Chariots of Fire, and I find it ironic that the central plot of the movie is how the rage of a well-to-do Jewish athlete towards the exclusiveness of English establishment drives him towards running and an Olympic gold medal. Ben Cross who played the athlete Harold Abrahams has a poignant line in the movie where Abrahams talks about his father. The character says of his father that he idolized the English and the English way of life and brought up his sons to be 100% true Englishmen. But he said,

"This England of his is Christian and Anglo-Saxon and so are her corridors of power, and those who stalk them guard them with jealousy and venom."

In one sense, one can hear Dodi saying that line himself.

Throughout the movie, you can just feel Abrahams resentment of being left out of the inner circle of English society and how he takes pleasure in embarassing the grey suits (old aristocratic heads of Cambridge college artfully played by Sir John Gielgud and another actor) When the heads express dismay that Abrahams has hired an Italian professional trainer, the athlete appears to reassure them. "He's only half Italian" "That's a relief" they said. Then Abraham comes back and says, "The other half is Arab." and he seems to take pleasure in the discomfort in the faces of the old men

I didn't realize it at the time but the movie also paid a supreme insult to the real Lord Lindsay (played by Nigel Havers) whose real name was Lord Burley. The movie starts with a race between Harold Abrahams and Lord Lindsay around the perimeter of the college courtyard. But actually they never raced against each other here. Lord Burley did run the race and won, only the second person in recorded history to do so. The movie made Lord Burley look like a marginal athlete compared to the others but actually this English aristocrat had a better Olympic career than any of them.

Dodi was only the producer but still it seems ironic that this was the movie that he produced when the story of his death almost 20 years later seems inextricably entwined with the story of Diana's revenge against the Royal Family and the British establishment and his father's own resentment as an outsider.

But I wonder if whether Dodi's resentment at first was to his father who sold him a dream of the primacy of the English society and the English way of life only to find, like Harold Abrahams, that the doors kept getting shut on him despite all that his father promised him. And I wonder whether Dodi's growing cynicism caused his father to adopt some cynicism of his own regarding the English. All in all Dodi, Mohammed, and Diana seemed like three people bound together by a mutual anger, resentment and righteous indignation towards the British. This anger may have spurred Harold Abrahams to win a gold medal in the 1924 Olympics but it proved disastrous for Diana and the al-Fayeds.
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  #1228  
Old 02-23-2008, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mermaid1962 View Post
I remember that as being part of the divorce agreement. In Sarah York's case, I don't think that there was a "gag order." And we know what's happened there. Once Diana was divorced, she didn't really talk publicly about her marriage or the conditions of the divorce. Of course, the divorce was 11 years ago now. Details can get fuzzy over that period of time.
Full details of the divorce were never made public, the "along with a legal order preventing her from discussing the details of the divorce settlement" is from the guessing game played by some media sources and the ubiquitous, Tina Brown in The Diana Chronicles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judith14011 View Post
"What difference would it have made to TRF or government, IF Diana had married Dodi? None.
Would it have mattered IF she married a muslim, NO. The only 'damage', if any would have been to Diana's image.
Would it have mattered IF after such a short 'relationship', Diana had been pregnant, again only to Diana's image." NO

Just wondering - do you think her image would have been hurt by marrying a Muslim?
No, that is why I put 'if any'.
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  #1229  
Old 02-23-2008, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
And I wonder whether Dodi's growing cynicism caused his father to adopt some cynicism of his own regarding the English. All in all Dodi, Mohammed, and Diana seemed like three people bound together by a mutual anger, resentment and righteous indignation towards the British. This anger may have spurred Harold Abrahams to win a gold medal in the 1924 Olympics but it proved disastrous for Diana and the al-Fayeds.
Mo Fayed believed he could buy affection and his way into anything, IMO. Dodi didn't 'need' or particularly want the approval of the UK, but he seemed to 'need' his fathers approval. Camilla, his sister is a regular at English society events, so that, to me, shows the resentment about 'not being able to belong', is restricted to Fayed senior.
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  #1230  
Old 02-23-2008, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judith14011 View Post
"What difference would it have made to TRF or government, IF Diana had married Dodi? None.
Would it have mattered IF she married a muslim, NO. The only 'damage', if any would have been to Diana's image.
Would it have mattered IF after such a short 'relationship', Diana had been pregnant, again only to Diana's image."


Just wondering - do you think her image would have been hurt by marrying a Muslim? It seems that Hasnat Khan was a well respected surgeon. The issue I think would have been with her marrying Dodi Fayed. And even though Mohammed Al Fayed changed his tune about his deathbed conversation with Diana - his lies were still public record and I would have loved to have seen him challenged on them. He is so busy calling everyone else a liar - it would have been nice to see him caught in his own game.

I, too am glad that Paul Burrell seems to be getting his "come uppance" - he is incredibly full of himself. It is too bad that he couldn't and wouldn't keep his mouth shut from the beginning.

There might of been some reaction. Perhaps similar to the reaction of some Americans to Jackie Kennedy's marriage to Ari. But it would have died down eventually.
Lexi
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  #1231  
Old 02-23-2008, 02:42 PM
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Princess Diana's former butler Paul Burrell has not yet contacted court officials over claims he lied at her inquest.

Paul Burrell: No Sign Of Diana's Butler Over Inquest 'Lie' Claims |Sky News|UK News

What a surprise!
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  #1232  
Old 02-23-2008, 03:02 PM
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That's quite an astute analysis of Harold Abrahams and Dodi Fayed, Ysbel. I hadn't made the connection between the two personalities before.

I must say, though, that I'd not considered Diana being anti-British before. I thought that her concerns about staying in the UK had more to do with the pressure she was under from the media and the Establishment and not because of the British per se.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
That's an interesting point, Mermaid. I wonder though whether Dodi was the first one to seethe with resentment against the English establishment rather than his father.

Before Diana, Dodi was best known for producing a remarkable movie, Chariots of Fire, and I find it ironic that the central plot of the movie is how the rage of a well-to-do Jewish athlete towards the exclusiveness of English establishment drives him towards running and an Olympic gold medal. Ben Cross who played the athlete Harold Abrahams has a poignant line in the movie where Abrahams talks about his father. The character says of his father that he idolized the English and the English way of life and brought up his sons to be 100% true Englishmen. But he said,

"This England of his is Christian and Anglo-Saxon and so are her corridors of power, and those who stalk them guard them with jealousy and venom."

In one sense, one can hear Dodi saying that line himself.

Throughout the movie, you can just feel Abrahams resentment of being left out of the inner circle of English society and how he takes pleasure in embarassing the grey suits (old aristocratic heads of Cambridge college artfully played by Sir John Gielgud and another actor) When the heads express dismay that Abrahams has hired an Italian professional trainer, the athlete appears to reassure them. "He's only half Italian" "That's a relief" they said. Then Abraham comes back and says, "The other half is Arab." and he seems to take pleasure in the discomfort in the faces of the old men

I didn't realize it at the time but the movie also paid a supreme insult to the real Lord Lindsay (played by Nigel Havers) whose real name was Lord Burley. The movie starts with a race between Harold Abrahams and Lord Lindsay around the perimeter of the college courtyard. But actually they never raced against each other here. Lord Burley did run the race and won, only the second person in recorded history to do so. The movie made Lord Burley look like a marginal athlete compared to the others but actually this English aristocrat had a better Olympic career than any of them.

Dodi was only the producer but still it seems ironic that this was the movie that he produced when the story of his death almost 20 years later seems inextricably entwined with the story of Diana's revenge against the Royal Family and the British establishment and his father's own resentment as an outsider.

But I wonder if whether Dodi's resentment at first was to his father who sold him a dream of the primacy of the English society and the English way of life only to find, like Harold Abrahams, that the doors kept getting shut on him despite all that his father promised him. And I wonder whether Dodi's growing cynicism caused his father to adopt some cynicism of his own regarding the English. All in all Dodi, Mohammed, and Diana seemed like three people bound together by a mutual anger, resentment and righteous indignation towards the British. This anger may have spurred Harold Abrahams to win a gold medal in the 1924 Olympics but it proved disastrous for Diana and the al-Fayeds.
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  #1233  
Old 02-23-2008, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Mo Fayed believed he could buy affection and his way into anything, IMO. Dodi didn't 'need' or particularly want the approval of the UK, but he seemed to 'need' his fathers approval. Camilla, his sister is a regular at English society events, so that, to me, shows the resentment about 'not being able to belong', is restricted to Fayed senior.
What you say makes perfect sense, skydragon, except for the plot of this particular movie which Dodi produced. I don't know, there seemed to be too many coincidences to al-Fayed's actual situation.

It may be a coincidence but if so, it is certainly a striking coincidence.
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  #1234  
Old 02-23-2008, 05:44 PM
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From what I've read about it, it doesn't sound as though Dodi paid much attention to the movie while he was producing it; he was just playing and dabbling at being a producer while carrying on his normal lifestyle. I think I read that David Puttnam had him thrown off the set once when he showed up the worse for wear from taking drugs.

I have a feeling that whatever anti-British attitudes he might have had would have been much more likely to come from his father than from that movie. I might be doing him an injustice, but I'm not sure that he was astute enough, or involved enough with the movie, to pick up on the connection.
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  #1235  
Old 02-23-2008, 07:20 PM
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I don't think the establishment would have had a problem with Dodi or lemme re-phrase that I don't think they actually cared or payed attention, I think it was more the general public that was shocked that Diana would go with someone who was classified as "playboy" - those words btw are from something the editors at The Sun once said.
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  #1236  
Old 02-23-2008, 07:28 PM
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It depends how graciously Diana handled it. Personally I felt she flaunted Dodi as a "Look what I can do" token. If she'd have taken that too far I feel both the establishment and the British people would have seen it as too much to bear.
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:31 PM
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I think that there are so many red herrings resulting from this Inquest that there's a great danger in overlooking what might be the most influential and damning, in the final analysis.

I've posited, earlier, that if Diana did indeed have a 'great love'at the time of her demise, then it was Dr Hasnat Khan, despite what Mr Fayed has said to the contrary. To my presumed knowledge, the Princess went out of her way to engage with, and support, Dr Khan's interests and work.

To my mind, the most iniquitous suggestion is that the Royal Family, and Prince Charles, especially, objected to the Princess' marrying a Muslim. I think this outrageous, untrue and ultimately, damaging.

There is not, nor has there ever been, any suggestion from Her Majesty nor indeed her Heir, that they dismiss Islam: quite the contrary, in fact. I've heard the Prince of Wales declare that he would much rather be 'Defender of Faith' than 'Defender of the Faith' (which, for those whose history is wonky, was, originally, the Catholic Church). There is every reason to assume that Her Majesty and her son respect, admire, and totally accept legitimate worship emanating from disparate cultures and socieities.

Whereas we may all well gawp and giggle at what else Fayed has said, I think that we should all reflect on his hateful words about alleged animosity towards an English aristocrat and Princess marrying a Muslim. This is what's likely to have a lasting and nasty effect, I think, and I'm sorry for it.
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  #1238  
Old 02-24-2008, 12:30 AM
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"Mo Fayed believed he could buy affection and his way into anything, IMO. Dodi didn't 'need' or particularly want the approval of the UK, but he seemed to 'need' his fathers approval. Camilla, his sister is a regular at English society events, so that, to me, shows the resentment about 'not being able to belong', is restricted to senior."

It seems that Mr. Fayed senior is a very mentally sick man. I am wondering if he was always perceived this way or if his paranoid, rage filled rantings escalated after 1997? After all, he cannot be the first crook to have sucessfully bribed politicians and still received citizenship. Do those of you who are citizens of the UK believe that he was barred because of his willingness to buy his way in, or because he is so obviously out of touch with reality? I peronally think that he is a very dangerous man. He is so paranoid and angry and he will undoubtedly not be happy with the inquest findings.



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  #1239  
Old 02-24-2008, 01:03 AM
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I shudder to think what he will do when no doubt, the jury will rule the deaths accidental

He won't shut up now and I doubt he will shut up then. He will have to be cautioned/gagged / maybe even charged which will only enrage him even more , why the heck is he so keen to be a citizen of a country whose monarchy he is determined to drag through the mud?

I'm beginning to think that maybe he has always been a little mentally unstable and Dodi's death tipped him over the edge. It's been 10 years a time frame when most people have worked through their grief and come to a place of acceptance. He is stuck in an early stage of the grief cycle with no idea of how to move forward or even showing signs of wanting to.

And what about his other children, aren't they important to him too? I know about the daughter (half sister or sister of Dodi, am not familiar with Mohammed's marriage/s ) what must she/ they think when their father is so obsessed with the death of their brother?

Maybe he blames himself for their deaths after all Diana was essentially in the care of his security/driver/hotel and this is the only way he can deal with the guilt.......shift it to some-one else

OK am running off at the mouth here, I'm no psychologist so better not even pretend to be, am just floating stuff that is in my head right now
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  #1240  
Old 02-24-2008, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polly View Post
- SNIPPED- To my mind, the most iniquitous suggestion is that the Royal Family, and Prince Charles, especially, objected to the Princess' marrying a Muslim. I think this outrageous, untrue and ultimately, damaging.
It seems to me that Fayed is playing on this suggestion more and more. Most of the people I know that are muslim, laugh it off, nobody objected to Hasnat Khan. Jemima Goldsmith was not ostracised when she converted and married a muslim man. It really wasn't a problem in anyones mind... except Fayeds.

Constantly hearing from Fayed that the reason HE believes Diana & Dodi were killed was because they were muslim, will only 'rally' the people who have chosen to live in the UK but are anti british anyway.

What is amazing, is that you and I agree on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by judith14011 View Post
After all, he cannot be the first crook to have sucessfully bribed politicians and still received citizenship. Do those of you who are citizens of the UK believe that he was barred because of his willingness to buy his way in, or because he is so obviously out of touch with reality? I peronally think that he is a very dangerous man. He is so paranoid and angry and he will undoubtedly not be happy with the inquest findings
I think the government knows or has suspicions that will not be made public for some years. He has always been less than honest about where he got his money, with the accusations flying thick and fast. He is alleged to have stolen a number of jewels from the then owner of Harrods. He was arrested and sued for false arrest which he lost! He also settled with Rowlands widow, (without admitting anything).

He has always been refused citizenship because he is considered 'not of good character'.
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