Social Norms: Diana and Staff

[Mermaid1962]

It's classic "them and us."

 

[CyrilVladisla]

When the Prince and Princess of Wales started divorce negotiations, Alexandra Ligge-Bourke called herself "Tiggy in the middle".

Princess Diana said Tiggy is neither to accompany Prince William and Prince Henry in the same car nor be photographed close to the brothers.
​

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

How many people close to Diana have sold her out? Is this a reflection on her judgement of people or did she just have the unfortunate fate to die before the blabber mouths?

 

[Princess Mahala]

How many people close to Diana have sold her out? Is this a reflection on her judgement of people or did she just have the unfortunate fate to die before the blabber mouths?

Both unfortunately, but not as many people talking as there could be. Happens when popular people die they get much more famous after death and it became easier to profit off of it, especialy someone so loved... Reading books from blabber mouths it seems a good part of there stories is about how she can get close to any one, even the staff, and certainly 'high up' people (whose positions/titles were lower than hers lol) looked down on her because this. This just endearded me personally more to her even though it was private.

 

[MARG]

People have different social "mores". Think soap opera scandals and consider that most ordinary people would say "oh I couldn't say that sort of thing no matter what I thought" in real life or, when told something personal or intimate about someone they knew would either say, or think, "that's more than I ever wanted to know".

Diana seemed to have a penchant to pick gossips as her confidants. She possibly picked up the habit when she first married and was finding her way about. Whatever the reason a gossip is almost impossible to keep quiet and add to that mix the lure of money. By and large those who sold out Diana were not her social equals but rather people of more modest income and no fortune and, unfortunately, no integrity.

Money can be a great motivator.

 

[sndral]

I read about this incident in the first Stephen Berry book. It's been a while since I read it, but I think Mr. Berry felt Diana visited the kitchen because she was lonely. She was apparently very uncomfortable in her home and didn't feel free to invite old friends over. Charles wasn't there and she wasn't comfortable with his aides. Perhaps she felt that the kitchen staff would be friendly to her. Maybe because Althrop's staff was friendlier.

Mr. Berry described the kitchen as being a mad house, with occasional rough language, and they didn't think it was appropriate for the Princess to appear asking for an apple. They first tried to stock a small refrigerator in her suite with food, but she kept going to the kitchen anyway. The head chef apparently abruptly told her that the kitchen was "his" part of the house and pointed to "her" part of the house. She was apparently pretty upset.

When I read that William and Catherine added a family kitchen to their KP apartment I wondered if this was William's wish because of his mother's reported problems/being banned from the kitchen.

 

[Osipi]

When I read that William and Catherine added a family kitchen to their KP apartment I wondered if this was William's wish because of his mother's reported problems/being banned from the kitchen.

I really think it might be indirectly related to Diana and I know both of the boys were very close to her but I'm more inclined to think the family kitchen is probably stemming from the Middleton family closeness and family meals. I don't think Diana's family had that kind of closeness and I think she would have loved to have that kind of thing with her family.

 

[Skippyboo]

Plus we know that Kate enjoys cooking so it makes sense that she would want cook for Will and George which is easier to do at the family kitchen. I would think the other kitchen maybe more bigger/industrial to handle feeding more people.

The White House has the same thing- a family kitchen in the private residence even though their are chefs standing by to cook whatever they want , sometimes they want to do it themselves.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I think the notoriously private William is keeping the number of staff to a minimum because of the tell-all books that have been written by his mother's (and father's) former staff. One of the reasons he is so close to the Middletons is that he found he can relax in their home without worrying that someone is going to publish his or her memory of what he did or said on a certain date.

Both Diana and Charles have been betrayed by their staff. IIRC, even the Queen was betrayed (I think her nanny published a book). Few of us could withstand scrutiny if someone publicized things we did in private. The main motive is money. But I think that in Diana's case, some of her staff rationalize that they are protecting her because she no longer has a voice.

Regardless of the reason, it has been inappropriate because Diana did not intend for her staff to discuss private details of her life or speak for her at all. She did enough of that on her own. She choose what she wanted revealed (and reveal about others). Now that her sons are grown, there is no excuse for any new books by staff. If her image needs protecting, William and Harry are more than capable of doing it.

 

[Tiggersk8]

Plus we know that Kate enjoys cooking so it makes sense that she would want cook for Will and George which is easier to do at the family kitchen. I would think the other kitchen maybe more bigger/industrial to handle feeding more people.

The White House has the same thing- a family kitchen in the private residence even though their are chefs standing by to cook whatever they want , sometimes they want to do it themselves.

I also remember Michelle Obama in an interview saying having that private kitchen was wonderful for the girls because not only did they learn how to cook, but to do it w/out the Kitchen Staff watching their every move. I also remember when the Interviewer (I'm thinking it was Oprah, but not entirely sure) expressed shock over that and that the Girls did their own laundry because, "But you're the First Family living in the White House!!" Mrs. Obama answered that they wouldn't be that forever and the girls were going to know how to stand on their own two feet when their time in the White House came to an end.

I think the Family Kitchen going into KP is due to many factors...Kate loving to cook and wanting to do so for her Family in a cozy easy to use place, a place to go to if the munchies hit or a dire need for a cuppa happens and they can do it themselves w/out throwing the routine of the main kitchen off, William seeing what a Family Kitchen can give to a Family when visiting the Middletons, but I also think seeing what his Mother had to deal w/at times w/the Staff and all the leaks that came w/it has a huge factor as well. I think it also explains why he and Kate are trying to keep their Staff as bare bones as possible far better than the "Wanting to be as much like regular everyday people." line does.

If they aren't there, then there aren't possible moles into KP the Papers could use to their own purposes after all. Another sad lesson from watching what happened during those years.


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[XeniaCasaraghi]

Social Norms: Diana and staff

When I read that William and Catherine added a family kitchen to their KP apartment I wondered if this was William's wish because of his mother's reported problems/being banned from the kitchen.

Not everything William does is related to his mother. William has a child and a wife who is a home maker and a cook, I'm sure it has more to do with that then some snippet Diana gave to Andrew Morton.

I also wonder if Williams reluctance to become a full time royal has a little to do with not wanting to being in a lot of staff to do the things he can no longer do and have them start leaking stories.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I definitely think this is why they had no live-in staff in Wales.

I think the notoriously private William is keeping the number of staff to a minimum because of the tell-all books that have been written by his mother's (and father's) former staff.

 

[Skippyboo]

How many of the books written by the staff came after Diana's death? I know that Wharfe the bodyguard, Burrell, the Chef and Jephson, the Private Secretary all wrote books. The only staff from Charles I remember writing a book was Stephen Barry, the valet. I remember reading that one when I was little . It was very tame.

I think William has a pretty tight knit staff - I can't really see Miguel, Rebecca or Jamie writing a book. WK made Jamie a godfather of George so they have complete faith in him.


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[sndral]

Not everything William does is related to his mother...

I realize that, having lost a parent at a young age myself, however, since this is a thread relating to his mother, I limited my comments to that possibility and even erased additional factors (Catherine cooking, Middleton heart of the home influence, etc.) that I'd originally typed as I didn't want to go off topic. Plus, I'm a bit tired of the tabs assuming that Catherine was the sole reason for the second kitchen.
It is clear that, for whatever reason, William has chosen a different path vis a viz. servants than his mother (and his father) chose when William and Harry were young children.

 

[Lady Nimue]

I think that Diana was used to a more relaxed situation regarding the family and the staff. According to various descriptions of her childhood years, it was normal for her to visit the kitchen and talk to the staff. Perhaps she thought that the staff at the royal residences operated the same way. She was apparently relaxed with Stephen Barry until he walked into her bedroom one morning while she was sitting on the bed in her night-dress. I'm not sure whether it was in his own book that he mentioned this.

I've read about this, too - or heard about it on a documentary about Diana's growing up. Exactly so. The way it was explained was that Diana and her younger brother Charles came to Althorp as older children and they both wandered all over the house and grounds after they moved in. It became common for them to wander down to the kitchen and talk with the staff - who humored the children. This then translated to the royal palaces as a young bride.

Mermaid, I have never heard about the Barry incident. Oh my - boundary crossed there. Must have been awkward.

How many of the books written by the staff came after Diana's death? I know that Wharfe the bodyguard, Burrell, the Chef and Jephson, the Private Secretary all wrote books. The only staff from Charles I remember writing a book was Stephen Barry, the valet. I remember reading that one when I was little . It was very tame.

I've just read this thread and am surprised that the following book has not been mentioned - published before Diana's death and a significant source of anecdotal stories regarding exactly how Diana interacted with her staff. My mother took a keen interest in Diana throughout the 80's and 90's while I was growing up - and one of the books in her library of books on royalty was this one -

The Housekeeper's Diary: Charles and Diana Before the Breakup by Mrs Wendy Berry (1995)

FYI: Mrs Berry clearly was impressed with Diana in certain ways. I would say she liked Diana better than Charles - though her motives in writing the memoir are curious. At any rate, her insights into the private life of the Waleses and how they treated their staff appears to be clear-eyed.

 

[Spheno]

I think this kitchen has nothing to do with Diana or Middletons. It's all about modern style of life and modern standards of life. Nobody in Europe or UK would rent or bye flat without a kitchen. Nobody wants to share their kitchen with other families (or with people who rent Kensington Palace for their events).
Morden wealthy people have less staff and know how to cook something for themselves.

 

[Lady Nimue]

I think this kitchen has nothing to do with Diana or Middletons. It's all about modern style of life and modern standards of life. Nobody in Europe or UK would rent or bye flat without a kitchen. Nobody wants to share their kitchen with other families (or with people who rent Kensington Palace for their events).

Modern wealthy people have less staff and know how to cook something for themselves.

I agree. But I think it helps that Catherine knows how to cook and grew up in a family where the kitchen was the focal point of family activity. Sounds lovely. George will have some wonderful memories around the warmth of food cooking with conversation and good times.

 

[Meadow]

I actually think it's lovely Catherine wants George to have a somewhat normal childhood. Having his mother cooking, spending time in the kitchen can provide some very happy memories plus by all accounts Catherine can cook which is a bonus. I think she wants to be able to do her own thing sometimes without having to rely on staff it's more cosy and normal and it sounds like william loves it or he wouldn't be doing it.

 

[LauraS3514]

I think it's a great idea to have the family kitchen. Several cooks/chefs can use the exact same recipe and ingredients and have the results taste very differently. William and Catherine may want to have their favorites cooked the way they like them - not "fancied up" by a chef.

 

[MARG]

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why on earth people are speculating, at great length and depth, about the Cambridges kitchen. The in-depth psychoanalysis is unbelieveable.

Folks, as several posters have pointed out, not everything William and Catherine do is a direct consequence of William's mother who has been dead for more than half his life. And, sometimes, a kitchen is just a kitchen.

Now having said that, can we all whip over to the thread covering the homes of the Cambridges and let this thread return to it's stated purpose, namely Social Norms: Diana and staff, which not surprisingly, does not include William and Catherine's psychotic kitchen?

 

[Osipi]

Now having said that, can we all whip over to the thread covering the homes of the Cambridges and let this thread return to it's stated purpose, namely Social Norms: Diana and staff, which not surprisingly, does not include William and Catherine's psychotic kitchen?

Awww geeez. Guess we'll never get to the topic of "will Lupo be allowed table scraps or not?"

 

[sndral]

Awww geeez. Guess we'll never get to the topic of "will Lupo be allowed table scraps or not?"

Now that I think about it, I don't recall reading whether Diana had any dogs.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Now that I think about it, I don't recall reading whether Diana had any dogs.

In Diana, Sarah Bradford wrote:
There were lots of live animals: Johnnie's black Labrador gun dog, Jill the springer spaniel, Diana's bad-tempered cat Marmalade, and her collection of hamsters, rabbits and guinea pigs. 'She loved animals when she was a child,' her mother said.
​

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I must admit something, I've always felt it was a little sad that Diana couldn't have long standing friendships and she instead had to confide in her staff like Paul Burrell. I wonder if she knew some of the staff could not be trusted and would leak stories and she thought Paul wasn't like that.

 

[AfricanAUSSIE]

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why on earth people are speculating, at great length and depth, about the Cambridges kitchen. The in-depth psychoanalysis is unbelieveable.

Folks, as several posters have pointed out, not everything William and Catherine do is a direct consequence of William's mother who has been dead for more than half his life. And, sometimes, a kitchen is just a kitchen.

Now having said that, can we all whip over to the thread covering the homes of the Cambridges and let this thread return to it's stated purpose, namely Social Norms: Diana and staff, which not surprisingly, does not include William and Catherine's psychotic kitchen?

Hahahahaha! Slow day...

 

[Mermaid1962]

I find it sad as well. I don't think that she had a great instinct about people. She could communicate well with people outside her private life; i.e. the people that she was helping. However, she seemed to have trouble having close, trusting relationships with people who could have helped her. Anyone who didn't agree with whatever she was doing was frozen out, either temporarily or permanently. She seems to have never learned that those who gossip can't be trusted with secrets and that those who are overwhelmingly eager to become friends often have selfish reasons for doing so. I think there were definitely "boundary" issues with her staff.

I must admit something, I've always felt it was a little sad that Diana couldn't have long standing friendships and she instead had to confide in her staff like Paul Burrell. I wonder if she knew some of the staff could not be trusted and would leak stories and she thought Paul wasn't like that.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

In Diana, Sarah Bradford wrote:

An immediate consequence of the separation of the two households was the division of the staff. At Kensington Palace the charming, loyal and discreet head butler, Harold Brown, remained with the Princess; the Highgrove butler, Paul Burrell, was assigned to Kensington Palace against his wishes. With his wife, Maria, and two sons, Burrell was happy in his cottage on the Highgrove estate and was extremely unwilling to be transferred to the Princess's service.
​

 

[Mermaid1962]

I wonder whether Diana wanted him with her or if it was a case that Charles didn't want him around? If so, I can't blame the Prince for that.

 

[AfricanAUSSIE]

In Diana, Sarah Bradford wrote:

An immediate consequence of the separation of the two households was the division of the staff. At Kensington Palace the charming, loyal and discreet head butler, Harold Brown, remained with the Princess; the Highgrove butler, Paul Burrell, was assigned to Kensington Palace against his wishes. With his wife, Maria, and two sons, Burrell was happy in his cottage on the Highgrove estate and was extremely unwilling to be transferred to the Princess's service.
​

I wonder how accurate that could be? Didn't he profess to be her rock and carry on about his loyalty and what not?

 

[Mermaid1962]

A truly loyal person doesn't go on and on about how loyal he is.