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  #101  
Old 10-24-2005, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
This inquest is turning into such a saga and its a saga that is costing the taxpayer a fortune. They've got their fountain, they've had their weeping - now let the woman rest in peace without bashing on about her life and death every 2 minutes and put an end to these ridiculous rumours of conspiracy theories. I'd much rather the Government spend a fortune on Bird-Flu Vaccine than on endless investigations to prove that Diana Spencer was killed in a car crash to please the morbid and the dispossessed.
This won't happen, though. The questions about the crash will persist. If the investigation had been handled properly in the first place, we might have all the answers. I think transferring the investigation to the Scotland Yard was a bad idea, very bad. It should have been handled by the French authorities, but I know that is just dreaming. There is no way the people with power to influence it were going to let any sort of objective agency handle it.
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  #102  
Old 10-24-2005, 05:05 PM
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Re:

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If the investigation had been handled properly in the first place, we might have all the answers
And you don't already? They weren't wearing seatbelts, there was a crash - she was killed. Those are the answers. Something tells me that whatever the Inquest says, there are those that will say, "It's a cover-up". Britain isn't capable of cover-ups and elaborate murder plots - we can't even get the buses running on time for heavens sake. I just have a real issue with the fact that I am paying for this ridiculous charade to take place when your average man on the street couldn't care less - and for once, I'm with the average man on the street.
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  #103  
Old 10-24-2005, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
And you don't already? They weren't wearing seatbelts, there was a crash - she was killed. Those are the answers. Something tells me that whatever the Inquest says, there are those that will say, "It's a cover-up". Britain isn't capable of cover-ups and elaborate murder plots - we can't even get the buses running on time for heavens sake. I just have a real issue with the fact that I am paying for this ridiculous charade to take place when your average man on the street couldn't care less - and for once, I'm with the average man on the street.
I am not saying you are wrong. You have your views and I respect them. But your suggestion that "Britain isn't capable of cover ups and elaborate murder plots......"??? Excuse me, but that is an absurd statement. All countries have cover ups and covert plots going on in the government. That is the reality of government, in general, no matter what sort of goverment it is. That is a reality for monarchies, for Socialist governments, for republics, for all governments, as I said. Very often, it's ugly. People with power are people who have a lot to lose and they guard their power base anyway they can. To think otherwise is being naive. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it is a fact. I do agree with you that the "average" person does not want to pay for this inquest, though. The average person is not thinking about it. It's only weirdos like me who never stop questioning anything. :p
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  #104  
Old 10-24-2005, 05:22 PM
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Re:

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I am not saying you are wrong. You have your views and I respect them. But your suggestion that "Britain isn't capable of cover ups and elaborate murder plots......"??? Excuse me, but that is an absurd statement. All countries have cover ups and covert plots going on in the government.
Sorry if I came across as harsh. Why msut every country have a huge secret? And why would they kill this woman, as much of a problem as she was?
Quote:
People with power are people who have a lot to lose and they guard their power base anyway they can. To think otherwise is being naive. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it is a fact.
Well I think it's more an opinion than fact - what possible power could have been lost if Diana stayed alive? Embarrasment, Scandal and Media Rubbish yes, but a loss of power? No. I think you overestimate the power Spencer had. Again, my opinion.
Quote:
I do agree with you that the "average" person does not want to pay for this inquest, though. The average person is not thinking about it. It's only weirdos like me who never stop questioning anything.
Then let the wierdos pay for it!
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  #105  
Old 10-24-2005, 05:30 PM
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At a certain point, though, you have to close the chapter out of respect for the living.

I think the reason the conspiracy theory will not die is that people are still looking for someone to blame for Diana's death. At the time, they wanted Charles to blame in whatever capacity. Its harder to get angry at the laws of physics for making it impossible for a car to safely manoever a tunnel at that speed.

For Diana's sons it doesn't matter any more. The results are sadly the same.
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  #106  
Old 10-24-2005, 05:41 PM
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Re:

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For Diana's sons it doesn't matter any more.
Of Course it doesn't. They won't forget their mother but they've moved on with their lives unlike the fanatics who have put their lives on hold since 1997 making pictures of Diana surrounded by flowers and bunnies, buying tacky postcards from Souvenir stalls and generally making an exhibition of themselves.
Quote:
I think the reason the conspiracy theory will not die is that people are still looking for someone to blame for Diana's death
Why do they need to blame someone? Was it that much of a personal loss? I really can't get my head around this issue at all. Maybe those of you who are obviously fans can enlighten me?
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  #107  
Old 10-24-2005, 05:43 PM
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[QUOTE=BeatrixFan]
Quote:
Well I think it's more an opinion than fact - what possible power could have been lost if Diana stayed alive? Embarrasment, Scandal and Media Rubbish yes, but a loss of power? No. I think you overestimate the power Spencer had. Again, my opinion.
It's not that Diana had power. It's more that she knew things. You can't spend 16,17 years in the British royal family (for even divorced, she was still at least half-in due to her sons and living in KP) without knowing secrets. This is not to say there were definitely secrets worth guarding. This is just a very compelling possibility when you consider that governments and royals, celebrities and wealthy people (in short, powerful people) often go to extremes to protect some secrets. I'm not personally a believer in these conspiracy theories around the crash. I am, however, open to the possibility, because let's face it. Stranger things have happened, and if Diana was killed because of some secret(s) then her killers should be brought to justice. I don't believe the royals themselves had anything to do with it. the ones under my suspicion are more the people who have a lot to lose if someone like Diana learns too much about something, threatens to reveal it, or gets too close to enemies of the Establishment. We all know Doda's father had/has enemies! These are people behind the scenes, the people who turn the royal wheels, the intelligence agencies who spy on them.

You said let the weirdos pay for it........ Frankly, I think a private investigation would be more productive than a taxpayer one! Let Fayed pay for it. He might be shady, you might not like him, but least his investigators would be private, have no loyalties to any national agency. In this way, it would be objective, supposedly.
More objective than Scotland Yard could be. Nothing against Scotland Yard. I'm sure they're a fine agency, but it's a fact that they have loyalties in people who could not possibly be objective.
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  #108  
Old 10-24-2005, 05:50 PM
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Re:

Quote:
It's not that Diana had power. It's more that she knew things.
She knew things? What the Queen watches on television? What Prince Michael has on his toast? Why do people think that the Royal Family is riddled with secrets and deception?
Quote:
Let Fayed pay for it. He might be shady, you might not like him, but least his investigators would be private, have no loyalties to any national agency. In this way, it would be objective, supposedly.
Trusting Al-Fayed to set up an inquiry? The man who claims Prince Philip is a Nazi and is the man in charge of the entire country?

Diana wasn't a member of the Royal Family at the time of her death. She was a commoner. She was killed in a car crash. The country wallowed for several weeks and then moved on to another temporary Goddess who was equally blonde and beautiful. It's a shame conspiracy theorists can't - and I don't include you in that CasiraghiTrio!
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  #109  
Old 10-24-2005, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
She knew things? What the Queen watches on television? What Prince Michael has on his toast? Why do people think that the Royal Family is riddled with secrets and deception?
Because the royal family has a lot of money to protect. Because they have a very nice lifestyle to protect. Because, whether you believe it or not, no matter what they try to tell you, everything they do is political. I like them. I respect them. I admire some of them (i.e. Philip, a fascinating man). But my liking them does not change the fact that you can't have that much power, or that much money, or that much fame and influence without having secrets, without being concerned about how those secrets will effect the position in this, that, whatever. You just can't. So whatever you choose to believe, face value is not the way to take this. Nothing about this is as straightforward or as cut and dry as what the royals watch on TV or how they like their toast.
Quote:
Trusting Al-Fayed to set up an inquiry? The man who claims Prince Philip is a Nazi and is the man in charge of the entire country?

Diana wasn't a member of the Royal Family at the time of her death. She was a commoner. She was killed in a car crash. The country wallowed for several weeks and then moved on to another temporary Goddess who was equally blonde and beautiful. It's a shame conspiracy theorists can't - and I don't include you in that CasiraghiTrio!
I know you mean no offense. I think we are having a nice discussion. I like exchanging ideas with people whose ideas are different from mine. There's no point in discussing things with people who share my views. That's not learning.
:)
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  #110  
Old 10-24-2005, 06:01 PM
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[QUOTE=CasiraghiTrio]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I'm not personally a believer in these conspiracy theories around the crash. I am, however, open to the possibility, because let's face it. Stranger things have happened.
CasiraghiTrio (I love the name BTW) when investigative agencies do their job properly, they disrupt the lives of a lot of people. For that reason, its irresponsible (and in some cases criminal) for them to open an investigation without just cause and that usually means relevant and reliable evidence.
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  #111  
Old 10-24-2005, 06:06 PM
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[QUOTE=ysbel]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

CasiraghiTrio (I love the name BTW) when investigative agencies do their job properly, they disrupt the lives of a lot of people. For that reason, its irresponsible (and in some cases criminal) for them to open an investigation without just cause and that usually means relevant and reliable evidence.
Good point. You guys are right that reopening the Diana investigation may not justified because there's not anything concrete. There's only "what if" and "maybe this is shady", as far as we know. That's what is being revealed to us. There are things none of us know because the intelligence and other authorities aren't telling us everything they know. Of course they can't. There might be concrete knowledge about the crash that we will never know. It's especially sad because in Britain there are not laws about releasing government info. In America, documents have to be released after a certain period. In Britain, the government can destroy anything they want.
:(
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  #112  
Old 10-24-2005, 06:09 PM
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Re:

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I know you mean no offense. I think we are having a nice discussion. I like exchanging ideas with people whose ideas are different from mine. There's no point in discussing things with people who share my views. That's not learning.
I take no offence! You're so right. We have to exchange views to learn. I can't bear these fools who think the more they scream and shout, the more likely it is they will change their opinion and believe the fanatics.
Quote:
Because the royal family has a lot of money to protect. Because they have a very nice lifestyle to protect.
Royals don't always have a huge fortune. They know how precarious their position is. They know that they could lose it all at any time - just like Michael of Romania or Constantine of Greece. I don't think they need to kill a woman to protect their money and lifestyle. They're guaranteed 60 million a year anyway.
Quote:
So whatever you choose to believe, face value is not the way to take this. Nothing about this is as straightforward or as cut and dry as what the royals watch on TV or how they like their toast
I believe it is. I believe that she was a very foolish young woman who didn't wear a seatbelt and as a result, was killed when the car crashed. I believe that there are those who cannot get over the fact that their idol has died and I believe there are those who will convince themselves that she cared an inch for them when in fact, she couldn't have cared less. Do you think that when she was lounging in the Ritz sipping Champagne that she was thinking of a group of obssesive fans who hailed her as a Goddess? I don't think so. Remember the position she found herself in. She had to cause controversy to stay in the public eye and I don't doubt that she'd need to be silenced. But I doubt those who wanted to silence her would kill her, however desperate they were to shut her up.
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  #113  
Old 10-24-2005, 06:10 PM
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[QUOTE=ysbel]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

CasiraghiTrio (I love the name BTW) when investigative agencies do their job properly, they disrupt the lives of a lot of people. For that reason, its irresponsible (and in some cases criminal) for them to open an investigation without just cause and that usually means relevant and reliable evidence.
True.... :( Sadly, there might be relevant and reliable evidence we will never know about. We only know what the agencies let us know via the media. If they want to keep some things secret, they will and they do. They are the masters at keeping classified info. secret. It's a pity, too, that the British government agencies can destroy whatever documents they never want the public to see. There are no laws there about releasing documents after a certain period, as there are in the US.
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  #114  
Old 10-24-2005, 06:11 PM
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I'm sorry about the duplicate post! :o :o
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  #115  
Old 10-24-2005, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I take no offence! You're so right. We have to exchange views to learn. I can't bear these fools who think the more they scream and shout, the more likely it is they will change their opinion and believe the fanatics.
Royals don't always have a huge fortune. They know how precarious their position is. They know that they could lose it all at any time - just like Michael of Romania or Constantine of Greece. I don't think they need to kill a woman to protect their money and lifestyle. They're guaranteed 60 million a year anyway.
But the examples you cited are deposed monarchs. There are reasons the British royal family have not been deposed. They stay in "power" (for lack of a better word) because they play the right game. they do all they need to do to maintain their image, to keep the status quo stable and balanced.
Quote:
I believe it is. I believe that she was a very foolish young woman who didn't wear a seatbelt and as a result, was killed when the car crashed. I believe that there are those who cannot get over the fact that their idol has died and I believe there are those who will convince themselves that she cared an inch for them when in fact, she couldn't have cared less. Do you think that when she was lounging in the Ritz sipping Champagne that she was thinking of a group of obssesive fans who hailed her as a Goddess? I don't think so. Remember the position she found herself in. She had to cause controversy to stay in the public eye and I don't doubt that she'd need to be silenced. But I doubt those who wanted to silence her would kill her, however desperate they were to shut her up.
Here you have revealed a great difference between us!
:p I am more inclined to sympathize with a "foolish girl" who married a powerful prince than with the powerful prince's seasoned and experienced family. The family has a distinct advantage, in my opinion.
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  #116  
Old 10-24-2005, 06:20 PM
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Re:

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I am more inclined to sympathize with a "foolish girl" who married a powerful prince than with the powerful prince's seasoned and experienced family. The family has a distinct advantage, in my opinion.
And here is where we descend into the Charles/Diana/Camilla triangle and I like you far too much to vent my true feelings on that one so I shall back away now and stick to our mutual admiration of the dashing Casiraghis instead! :p
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  #117  
Old 10-24-2005, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
And here is where we descend into the Charles/Diana/Camilla triangle and I like you far too much to vent my true feelings on that one so I shall back away now and stick to our mutual admiration of the dashing Casiraghis instead! :p
Well, have no fear! No dangerous territory has been breeched. I am not a fanatical anti-Charles person at all. I like Charles and diana almost equally. I am basically indifferent about Camilla. She really holds no interest for me. I like her as far as I would like someone who is a great friend to someone I respect. I said "almost equally" because I do like Diana slightly more, only because it's very easy for me to relate to her. I'm a woman and I'm young and I've had depression and dealt with suicide (father and uncle both commited suicide.

I am glad we had this exchange today. You've definitely influenced me. I think the thing I take away from it is the fact that everyone has to be innocent until proven guilty. And trying to prove a royal guilty of anything would be harder than proving just anyone guilty because the British royal family have certain legal immunities. For example, imagine there being an attempt to have a search warrant for Buckingham Palace! You may as well try to search the Vatican! So the sad truth is that if a royal is guilty of anything, we're not likely to ever know and they're not likely to pay any consequences. That said, it's pointless to talk this in circles. Fair or unfair, just or unjust, the reality is that there is not enough known to us, the public, about this investigation to make any conclusions. So I guess you have won our debate. With what we know about the matter, all I can say is you're right. The inquest is a waste of time. If we knew all that the authorities know, we might feel differently, but we don't. :(
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  #118  
Old 10-24-2005, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Why do they need to blame someone? Was it that much of a personal loss? I really can't get my head around this issue at all. Maybe those of you who are obviously fans can enlighten me?
It's human nature to look for causes of things. That's partly why religions are so attractive and why creationism has such a hold on people in religious societies; "it just happened that way" is deeply unsatisfying for a lot of people, and "there must have been a reason and a course of events guided by an intelligent agent" is much more believable. It's why people rationalise a child's death with "it was God's will" and why there are always followers of the fringe nutters claiming that Hurricane Katrina was sent by God to punish an evil city or that New Orleans flooded because the government blew up the levees after the hurricane. Humans look for patterns and for reasons; it's part of the way we are. And it's part of the reason why a lot of people will never believe that Diana's death was an accident that just happened and wasn't planned by some sort of intelligent agent such as the secret service trying to protect the royals or trying to attack Fayed through Diana or goodness only knows what else.

It's also profitable for certain people to claim some sort of great conspiracy because it sells books and TV programmes and makes them rich. They won't let this go while there are people who are willing to buy their stuff because they want to try and make sense of what happened. These two groups of people are filling a need in each other, and I don't think this is going to stop any time soon.

As for why some people take Diana so seriously - she had the knack of appearing to be intimate with total strangers. Someone said of the Queen Mother that she could look at a crowd of thousands and everyone there would sincerely believe that she'd looked straight at him and smiled just for him. Diana managed to do that for millions because of the mass media.
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  #119  
Old 10-25-2005, 06:40 AM
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Re:

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I am glad we had this exchange today. You've definitely influenced me. I think the thing I take away from it is the fact that everyone has to be innocent until proven guilty. And trying to prove a royal guilty of anything would be harder than proving just anyone guilty because the British royal family have certain legal immunities
I'm glad too and I'm sorry to hear of your bad times. It's been very interesting and enjoyable to discuss this - I usually avoid this forum altogether - I didn't set out to influence you but it's nice to know I have! The Queen has legal immunity - she can't be locked up even if she goes on a killing spree around the Palace - but the rest of the RF can.
Quote:
It's why people rationalise a child's death with "it was God's will" and why there are always followers of the fringe nutters claiming that Hurricane Katrina was sent by God to punish an evil city or that New Orleans flooded because the government blew up the levees after the hurricane
I heard a preacher on the radio saying, "Don't send your money to those people - they have enough money through the Greed of their Government - Pray for them and ask for the love of..."

At that point I believe I turned the radio off in a fit of rage!

What really got to me about the whole Diana thing was the generalisation. On the Golden Jubilee series - Queen and Country- they showed people after the funeral and one woman was in tears saying, "Everybody loved Diana" - it makes me cringe every time and I always wish someone had said to her, "No they didn't dear". I suppose you're right when you say about the Queen Mother's public technique. Ian Hislop said that the reason that we loved the Queen Mother was that she was a sweet old lady who hadn't said anything since 1945.

I love the QM Method - if it took her 4 steps to get to a door from the car, she'd wave once to the right, once to the left, once to the right and once to the left. That way, everyone got a chance to see her and she went slowly enough for people to think they'd met her!
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  #120  
Old 10-25-2005, 07:25 PM
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I love the QM Method - if it took her 4 steps to get to a door from the car, she'd wave once to the right, once to the left, once to the right and once to the left. That way, everyone got a chance to see her and she went slowly enough for people to think they'd met her!

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I never knew this. Very interesting! My grandfather was based in England as Lt. Cmdr. of the Army Air Corps at a base in the countryside. To the end of his life, he vividly recalled 2 dinners with the Queen Mother, the King and both of their daughters. He thought she was the epitome of class and elegance--yet very down to earth. And, yes, while their "conversation" in all likelihood lasted but a few minutes, he said he felt she was extremely interested in everything he had to say and had a way of fixing her gaze on one which was so compelling and memorable. He remembered she had "amazing eyes" and the King was just a very congenial, kind man. Throughout his life, he held them and their daughters in the highest esteem for their leadership and not fleeing the country during those dangerous years.
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