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  #761  
Old 01-15-2007, 05:06 PM
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http://www.butler-sloss-inquests.gov.uk/

Is the official website, if you look under today date you will see a 30 page document in response to the pre trial meeting that took place on the 8th. I haven't read the whole thing but it does get into the arguments for and against the royal household jury, among other things.

I think the other reason why it is not a good idea to have a jury is that the evidence, documents and witness for both cases (they are being held co-currently) is huge. It would pose a huge problem for a jury, 24 people have to be removed from there jobs for months and maybe a year, plus there is no way to prevent a bias from them since they have had ten years of speculation to deal with.
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  #762  
Old 01-15-2007, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
An inquest is required by law. Therefore it needs to be done. Anyway, that's semantics. The fact remains that investigations cost money and Britain can't afford a couple of million each year on something that's really to silence the fanatics.
No, it isn't.
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  #763  
Old 01-15-2007, 05:59 PM
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{Edited - Elspeth}Firstly, let us make sure we all know what an inquest is. An inquest is an investigation to find the cause of death when someone has died in suspicious circumstances. Let's take the British actor Kenneth Williams as an example. He died in 1988 and was found by his mother. Next to the bed was a bottle of alcohol and a bottle of barbiturates. Therefore, he'd died in suspicious circumstances and the coroner wouldn't issue the death certificate until the cause of death was found. So an inquest was heard and his family had to go and hear the inquest. A post-mortem was carried out on Williams and they found that his death had been a result of an overdose of barbiturates. That's one part of the inquest - he died of an overdose and a death certificate can be issued. However, legally, how he came to die of an overdose had to be ascertained and the coroner couldn't determine that so he recorded an open verdict. There wasn't a jury in the Williams case, the Coroner simply looked at the medical reports, the report from the funeral directors and the statements given to the police by Kenneth's mother and the porter who found the body with her. From these documents, the Coroner came to a decision. Now, in Kenneth's case, there was an open verdict and the case could be re-opened at any time and another inquest held.

Now, with Diana the case is pretty much the same, even if a little more complicated. She died in a car crash but the Coroner has to decide what the exact cause of death was. So, Elizabeth Butler-Sloss will look at the post-mortem results, at the medical evidence, the reports from the French investigation, the British investigation and statements from all witnesses, close relatives etc etc. Based on that, she will say what exactly killed Diana. Then she will say how that came to be caused, in this case, what caused the car crash. To do this, she needs to look at the information avaliable on the driver, on the movements of the press etc etc. Once she's done all that, she gives her verdict. Diana died in suspicious circumstances so she has to have an inquest. That's British law. She has to have that done. Suspicious doesn't mean she was bumped off, it means that she didn't die of natural causes or illness, something else caused her death and an inquest is required to find our exactly what that was.

{Edited - Elspeth}Now, you claimed that the death of any Briton abroad needs an inquest. That's true. I am not arguing the fact that Diana has to have an inquest. Whether she died in Britain in a car accident or in France, an inquest would be needed. Right? What I am objecting to is the fact that unlike the Williams case, this inquest seems to have been pro-longed in order to please the conspiracists and the fanatics when in fact, this could easily have been closed before the year 2000. But here we are in 2007 and an inquest is being held after years of investigations, questioning and heaven knows what. This has cost the British tax payer an enormous amount of money and whilst an inquest can't and shouldn't be rushed, it has been dragged out to entertain the claims of a certain Mr Al-Fayed. And that's wrong. Usually, the inquest into a Royal death is held by the Royal Coroner and the jury (if the coroner requests one) is made up of members of the Royal Household. Elizabeth Butler-Sloss is doing things differently and thats fine, as long as we can be assured that by the end of this year, we have a verdict and a promise that this won't keep being re-opened on the whim of a few die hard fans and a politically-motivated father at great expense to the British people.
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  #764  
Old 01-15-2007, 07:15 PM
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Al Fayed attacks Diana jury ruling

Mohamed al Fayed has branded the decision not to appoint a jury for the Diana, Princess of Wales inquest "shocking but predictable".
Britain's top female judge Baroness Butler-Sloss is to sit alone on the high profile case.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/15012007/34...ry-ruling.html
  #765  
Old 01-15-2007, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Therefore, he'd died in suspicious circumstances and the coroner wouldn't issue the death certificate until the cause of death was found. So an inquest was heard and his family had to go and hear the inquest. A post-mortem was carried out on Williams and they found that his death had been a result of an overdose of barbiturates. That's one part of the inquest - he died of an overdose and a death certificate can be issued. However, legally, how he came to die of an overdose had to be ascertained and the coroner couldn't determine that so he recorded an open verdict. There
After a death in the UK, the first thing that happens is a postmortem, at which point, if it was clearly not murder, a death certificate is issued. That allows the family or agents acting for the family, to remove the body from the mortuary to the funeral home.

If the cause is not clear, as in Williams case, an inquest is heard to try to determine whether it was a suicide, murder or an accidental death.

Any British subject who dies abroad under violent, unnatural, or of sudden and unknown cause, is required by law to have an inquest.
  #766  
Old 01-15-2007, 07:36 PM
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Hello.

I think Skydragon is right about Diana's position in theory only. Diana was really not royal family at her death. She did not have a real royal funeral and burial. I think both Diana and Dodis' inquests should be with common British citizens. In America we go to court and are asked questions about a case. With our answer then the court then decides if we are used as a juror.

I think in the case of Diana- the inquest should have half the royal household and half common British citizens. That way people who feel she was murdered can feel she and Dodi got a fair trial.

I know Mr. Al Fayed will fight this.
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  #767  
Old 01-15-2007, 07:53 PM
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When Diana's body was taken to 'one of the monarchs palaces', (as Diana had not yet found somewhere else to stay), British law should have taken over fully, namely that 'the royal coroner - is responsible for inquests on people whose bodies are lying within the limits of the monarch's palaces'.

The royals and the coroner were and are in a no win situation. If they had refused to allow her corpse to be taken to the palace, they would have been further condemned, but because they did allow it, they are now being condemned because they are trying to allow the coroner to do her job.

Quote:
She did not have a real royal funeral....... I think in the case of Diana- the inquest should have half the royal household and half common British citizens. That way people who feel she was murdered can feel she and Dodi got a fair trial.


Her funeral was as royal as it gets, even if she had still been Charles' wife, she would not have received a state funeral. The inquest will be fairly judged and something that concerns me is that you are saying that it will not be. You could get the common people on the jury, who like me believe it was an accident. Will you then say we were got at?
  #768  
Old 01-16-2007, 12:21 AM
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Diana's inquest will not have a jury
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

Diana death jury decision fuels conspiracy talk
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...45-663,00.html
  #769  
Old 01-16-2007, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
You could get the common people on the jury, who like me believe it was an accident. Will you then say we were got at?
I bet most people sincerely believe it was an accident. Let me just say: seat belts!

I so understand the princes: Diana is dead. Close the case and allow her to rest in peace. She is not coming back and you won't find anyone guilty of her death apart from a drunken driver in Al-Fayed's pay. It can't be that only because Al Fayed tries to deflect from his own responisbilities the whole world is treated to yet another round of conspiracy theories when there is simply no fire under the smoke.

But fro the sake of all believers that it was indeed the MI6 - don't you think for a moment that the queen has asked to see the protocolls? That William will do another check once he is king? Noone can tell the souverain to back of the information about the Secret Services if the souverain wants to know about something. So even if the queen was in a cover-up, Diana's son will one day be able to find out the truth, if he does not already know it. So why bother? The case is in the very best hands!
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  #770  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
The inquest will be fairly judged and something that concerns me is that you are saying that it will not be. You could get the common people on the jury, who like me believe it was an accident. Will you then say we were got at?
Yes, if there was a jury of common people - I would believe the inquest would be more fair. Why did the ruling change in the first place from over a week ago? Must of gotten pressure from someone?
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  #771  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:57 AM
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i am going to ask if it is normal not to have jury present?
  #772  
Old 01-16-2007, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
I bet most people sincerely believe it was an accident. Let me just say: seat belts!
I always wonder if the many press who were making Diana's and Dodi's lives hell that night of there deaths got a fine or jail time? I don't think they did. Maybe if the had life would be different now for Diana's sons and girlfriends.

I just hear seatbelts and a drunk driver are responsible for the deaths. What did the Stevens report say about reporters that night the made the driver drive very fast to get away from them?
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  #773  
Old 01-16-2007, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtan
i am going to ask if it is normal not to have jury present?
If you're interested in legal stuff, you're welcome to read: http://www.butler-sloss-inquests.gov...s_08012007.pdf - it explains which arguments Lady Butler-Sloss got to hear from the different lawyers of the parties concerned, what leagl research she undertook and with which result and how she came to her decision and why. Interesting read...!
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  #774  
Old 01-16-2007, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiea
Quote:
I bet most people sincerely believe it was an accident. Let me just say: seat belts!
I always wonder if the many press who were making Diana's and Dodi's lives hell that night of there deaths got a fine or jail time? I don't think they did. Maybe if the had life would be different now for Diana's sons and girlfriends.

I just hear seatbelts and a drunk driver are responsible for the deaths. What did the Stevens report say about reporters that night the made the driver drive very fast to get away from them?
Yes, surely the paparazzi played their role but IIRC the report said that while they were surely diminishing the attention of the driver they did not actually do something to make the car crash. Or does anyone knows more?
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  #775  
Old 01-16-2007, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

{Edited - Elspeth}Now, you claimed that the death of any Briton abroad needs an inquest. That's true. I am not arguing the fact that Diana has to have an inquest. Whether she died in Britain in a car accident or in France, an inquest would be needed. Right? What I am objecting to is the fact that unlike the Williams case, this inquest seems to have been pro-longed in order to please the conspiracists and the fanatics when in fact, this could easily have been closed before the year 2000. But here we are in 2007 and an inquest is being held after years of investigations, questioning and heaven knows what. This has cost the British tax payer an enormous amount of money and whilst an inquest can't and shouldn't be rushed, it has been dragged out to entertain the claims of a certain Mr Al-Fayed. And that's wrong. Usually, the inquest into a Royal death is held by the Royal Coroner and the jury (if the coroner requests one) is made up of members of the Royal Household. Elizabeth Butler-Sloss is doing things differently and thats fine, as long as we can be assured that by the end of this year, we have a verdict and a promise that this won't keep being re-opened on the whim of a few die hard fans and a politically-motivated father at great expense to the British people.
I understand all of that. But, your earlier post, where you stated that: "Look, the fact is that this inquest was demanded by those obssessed with conspiracy theories and to shut them up, the British Government gave the go ahead." inferred that the inquest was initiated simply because of conspiracy theorists, and that isn't accurate. While portions of the investigation may have been conducted to silence fanatics, the inquest itself is a result of the laws requiring it.
  #776  
Old 01-16-2007, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
After a death in the UK, the first thing that happens is a postmortem, at which point, if it was clearly not murder, a death certificate is issued. That allows the family or agents acting for the family, to remove the body from the mortuary to the funeral home.
Really? When my Great Aunt died there wasn't a post mortem and when my Grandfather died, they had to ask our permission to hold one so I don't think it's as compulsory as that.
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  #777  
Old 01-16-2007, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
If you're interested in legal stuff, you're welcome to read: http://www.butler-sloss-inquests.gov...s_08012007.pdf - it explains which arguments Lady Butler-Sloss got to hear from the different lawyers of the parties concerned, what leagl research she undertook and with which result and how she came to her decision and why. Interesting read...!
Jo and Skydragon-I don't know all the news in the UK or Europe because I am in America. But I just read Lady Butler-Sloss report. Interesting. Did it come out this week or last week? I thought last week she said there would be a jury. Did she change her ruling yesterday? I am confused.
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  #778  
Old 01-16-2007, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Really? When my Great Aunt died there wasn't a post mortem and when my Grandfather died, they had to ask our permission to hold one so I don't think it's as compulsory as that.
Any death in the UK that is violent, unnatural, of sudden or unknown cause, requires a post mortem and possibly an inquest. If your Gt Aunt died in her old age, or from an illness that was expected to result in an early death, then it would not be needed. The same with your grandfather, it would depend what they thought he had died from.
  #779  
Old 01-16-2007, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiea
...But I just read Lady Butler-Sloss report. Interesting. Did it come out this week or last week? I thought last week she said there would be a jury. Did she change her ruling yesterday? I am confused.
She has never announced any such thing. Last week she merely said it would be 'inappropirate' to have a jury, consisting of the members of the Royal household.
Several newspapers interpreted it as a signal that there will be 'people's' jury.
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  #780  
Old 01-16-2007, 03:49 PM
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That's what I thought Skydragon. It just sounded as if you were saying every death needed an inquest which as you point out, it doesn't.
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