Questions about sources


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Well you never know. You can't be sure of everything. However, when you see a supposed fact reappearing again and again, no matter from what source it comes from, then you might want to consider it could be true. That's the goal of this thread; helping to find sources or quotes that have been published.

You say one should consider if a quote could be true or not. That's a very important point when evaluating sources and quotes. For example the infamous quote allegedly by Camilla when she first met the Prince of Wales: My ancestor and yours were lovers, how about us (or something along that line. Could that be true?

I personally doubt it for two reasons: first of all - why should Miss Shand believe that HRH knows her ancestry when she first meets him? A quote like that only works if both are immediately informed. Would she have chanced that he didn't understand the innuendo? What then? She would have been forced to explain and be put in a position no lady ever wants to find herself in. just imagine the disgrace.

Secondly she must have known before how the prince reacts to talk about his ancestor's affairs. After all, Edward VII. cheated on his queen with Mrs. Keppel.It is one thing to know that, it is another to refer to such a thing on the first meeting with the prince. I doubt Camilla would have been so careless with her chance of finding introduction into the Royal circles, especially as she was on the search of a suitable husband back then. Would she have told all via the prince that she was used goods and easy to be had? How stupid do people believe Camilla has been? :bang:
 
Well Certain Member, I was in particular refering to a post I had made quoting verbatim the now Royal person mentioned. If it came from her own mouth, how can you deny the truth of it? It was not a fly on the wall, but a ham radio person who picked up the cell phone call, if I recall correctly. I had also quoted no less than three widely respected books, not the national enquirer. It is completely unreasonable for Certain Member to say unless there is an Official Statement from the Palace, this does not exist. If we are going to all have to wait for an Official Statement before we can talk about things, we're not going to have much to discuss here, royal wise.
:flowers: If I recall, the quote had been misquoted, one comma out of place and the whole sentence changes, that is what happens to make the story more exciting. That is why I try to post a link, bearing in mind, the punctuation has been inserted by someone who decided to transcribe the phone call.
Camillagate Transcript

Without discussing the gossip, this forum would probably fold, but at least acknowledge it is purely gossip, just because it is repeated and repeated, does not make it fact. The meeting by the tree is another clash point. Nobody else was there except Charles and Camilla, so how can anyone quote what they said, but repeated enough times as being overheard by Lady this or Mrs Smith-Jones and people start to believe it.

I'm disheartened that so many people are offended by someone pointing out facts or questioning the source. It would appear the truth is out there, but nobody wants to seek it.
 
My point Skydragon, is when reputable books (I'm not talking about Kitty Kelly) which have been thoroughly vetted by the publishing house to check for any inaccuracies with the thought of protecting the publishing house from a libel charge, are discounted here by certain posters because they are not complementary to their favorite. The truth is the truth, regardless if some dont care for it. And Jo, I dont constantly harp about deleted posts. However when I have one that has been backed up by multiple sources deleted, I think I have the right to question why. Especially given Elspeths earlier statement in this thread that if 'something has been written in a book or article that it is generally considered reliable, especially if it shows up in more than one, then we are prepared to accept it as a correct account'. As far as the meeting at the polo field 'Charles and Camilla the Love Story' by Caroline Graham quotes an eyewitness to the infamous Your Great Grandpa opening statement, so apparantly they were not alone (how anyone could be thought to be alone at a polo match really makes no sense). The same book quotes Steven Barry, then valet to Prince Charles on Charles and Camilla spending the night together the night before the Charles and Diana nuptuals as "We all knew how he felt about Camilla. It was a very emotional last assignation for them both. But to do it on that night was truly incredible. Certainly incredibly daring, if not incredibly stupid". We all know there are no secrets from the valet. When you take widely published eyewitness accounts written in a reputable book and respond by saying: I dont believe them. There has been no statement from the palace and everything else is an urban legend, that, to me, is ridiculous. Do you really expect Camilla to issue a proclamation saying 'Why yes that's exactly how it happened'?
 
You say one should consider if a quote could be true or not. That's a very important point when evaluating sources and quotes. For example the infamous quote allegedly by Camilla when she first met the Prince of Wales: My ancestor and yours were lovers, how about us (or something along that line. Could that be true?

I personally doubt it for two reasons: first of all - why should Miss Shand believe that HRH knows her ancestry when she first meets him? A quote like that only works if both are immediately informed. Would she have chanced that he didn't understand the innuendo? What then? She would have been forced to explain and be put in a position no lady ever wants to find herself in. just imagine the disgrace.

Secondly she must have known before how the prince reacts to talk about his ancestor's affairs. After all, Edward VII. cheated on his queen with Mrs. Keppel.It is one thing to know that, it is another to refer to such a thing on the first meeting with the prince. I doubt Camilla would have been so careless with her chance of finding introduction into the Royal circles, especially as she was on the search of a suitable husband back then. Would she have told all via the prince that she was used goods and easy to be had? How stupid do people believe Camilla has been? :bang:

I agree with you; it sounds quite laughable that someone could place this sort of quote during a first meeting. However, I don't see it as something making Camilla appear as stupid. We don't know her so we can't say if she's rather spontaneous, bold or totally the opposite. Why she would have said that? I don't know but why not?
 
My point Skydragon, is when reputable books (I'm not talking about Kitty Kelly) which have been thoroughly vetted by the publishing house to check for any inaccuracies with the thought of protecting the publishing house from a libel charge, are discounted here by certain posters because they are not complementary to their favorite. The truth is the truth, regardless if some dont care for it.
And yet many of these reliable books only repeat a rumour, with no basis in fact if it is not backed up by a source, ie, the person who said it. Yes publishing houses will check their books, but with the sure and certain knowledge that an injunction or libel accusation will not be forthcoming and if there is any chance of either, publish in the US!
It would be wonderful if these books stuck solely to the truth, but they don't many will state a rumour or something they have read in a tabloid as fact. Even on here, something read in a tabloid will be taken as gospel and half the time if you actually read past the fiest few lines, you find the article itself says 'it is rumoured'. The 'it's rumoured', never makes it as far as TRF thread.
As far as the meeting at the polo field 'Charles and Camilla the Love Story' by Caroline Graham quotes an eyewitness to the infamous Your Great Grandpa opening statement, so apparantly they were not alone (how anyone could be thought to be alone at a polo match really makes no sense).
Clearly you never attended a polo match here in the 70's or 80's, where it was perfectly feasable, even now there is the privacy of the horsebox.
Again, The same book quotes Steven Barry, then valet to Prince Charles on Charles and Camilla spending the night together the night before the Charles and Diana nuptuals as "We all knew how he felt about Camilla.
Disputed by the valet himself I believe.
We all know there are no secrets from the valet.
Do we, from some that I have read it is unlikely indeed
When you take widely published eyewitness accounts written in a reputable book and respond by saying: I dont believe them. There has been no statement from the palace and everything else is an urban legend, that, to me, is ridiculous. Do you really expect Camilla to issue a proclamation saying 'Why yes that's exactly how it happened'?
It is the suggestion of 'widely published eyewitness accounts' that I have a problem with, because half the time it is private conversations and private moments they are apparently claiming to have witnessed and we all know their presence would have been unlikely, there again they are pretty safe as we know that there will be no denial, no lawsuit. I had a quick look back through some of my posts and I haven't yet found any evidence that I have said 'There has been no statement from the palace', and it is exaggerations and misquotes that cause the problems, afaic.
 
As long as we're talking about the veracity of sources, this is pretty much my take on it.

If something comes from an actual interview that we can see or hear ourselves or an authorised or official transcript of an interview, a Buckingham Palace (or equivalent) statement or press release, or an official or otherwise authoritative biography, I think it's safe to assume that it's worth taking seriously. Doesn't mean it's necessarily true - I remember how Buckingham Palace was denying the relationship between Princess Anne and Mark Philips until five minutes before the engagement announcement - but at least it's authoritative (I suppose officially sanctioned bald-faced lies are at least authoritative :bang:).

Transcripts of interviews or conversations have to be treated a bit carefully unless they've been approved by one of the sources; as Skydragon pointed out, the placement of a comma can be significant to the meaning, and the original interview or conversation wouldn't have had punctuation, so there's sometimes some guesswork involved. This is especially the case if the interview itself isn't available to watch or listen to.

Anything in a gossipy biography, article, or TV programme, or in an autobiography, should be treated with a certain amount of suspicion because the author is probably pushing an agenda. It never hurts to try and match information from this sort of book or article with something from an authoritative source. I think we're all familiar with the way that even supposedly authoritative TV documentaries can make fairly serious mistakes sometimes, so it's always worth taking a bit of time to fact-check. However, if one of these documentaries contains footage of interviews with people like Martin Charteris, Pamela Mountbatten, or Margaret Rhodes, the chances are that it's generally pretty believable. Doesn't hurt to remember that editing of interviews and other footage can give misleading impressions (such as the Annie Liebowitz incident in the trailer for the documentary), but if the information in these articles or documentaries is broadly in line with previous information, it's probably safe to take it seriously.

Second- or third-hand reports of conversations aren't the same thing as live interviews. I don't know how many times I've heard "Philip told Charles he could go back to his mistress after five years of marriage if he didn't want to stay with Diana" as though Prince Philip was on the record as having said this. When you probe a bit, it turns out that this is something that Diana told a friend, a friend told Andrew Morton, and Andrew Morton wrote in his book. "Andrew Morton said that someone told him that Diana said that Charles said that Philip said," or even the more true "Andrew Morton said that in one of the tapes passed to him by James Colthurst Diana said that Charles said that Philip said," is a very different thing from "Philip said." Same with this business of Camilla's "how about it?" opening gambit to Charles (and also, apparently, same with some of Wallis Simpson's early conversations with Edward); if these things are said in private and we hear about them in ways other than the royal (or whoever said them) confirming that they were in fact said, then they aren't authoritative statements. Doesn't mean they can't be used in TRF threads, but they shouldn't be given the same weight as a direct quote from the Dimbleby interview or the Panorama interview or the Queen's statement after Diana's death, to give a few examples.

Newspaper and TV reports of royal events are probably reliable, but reliability is increased if more than one independent source say the same thing. If half a dozen reports of a visit talk about an enthusiastic crowd greeting Camilla and one report talks about half a dozen sullen-looking people, the report that's been backed up by other reports is more likely to be true, even it it isn't saying what you might prefer to hear.

Stuff that's picked up from tabloid sources, with the "a close friend/someone close to/a member of the household told me" level of verification, should be taken with a massive pinch of salt. With these papers and magazines it pays to read very closely and with critical-thinking skills fully engaged, because some of these authors are masters at juxtaposing a fairly well-known fact, an urban legend, and a personal opinion in such a way that the existence of the fact appears to lend legitimacy to the rest of it.

Unfortunately Photoshopping isn't entirely unknown in photos accompanying royal stories. At least we have some pretty knowledgeable people here who'll know if Kate Middleton's head appears on someone else's body who happens to be having a wardrobe malfunction, or if Camilla has been Photoshopped to look ten years older (or younger), but if a photo looks unlikely for whatever reason, it may be because it's been tampered with.

Stuff that's posted at other forums or in blogs, where a person with no inside knowledge at all is taking it upon herself to claim to know the thought processes and motivations of people like Camilla, Kate, William, Charles, and Diana, should be dismissed as fabrication.

Buckingham Palace, and to a lesser extent Clarence House, tend to respond to most of these press allegations with silence. That doesn't mean they're tacitly admitting that the allegations are true.

I probably haven't covered anything, and feel free to disagree, but that's my opinion, for what it's worth.
 
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:previous: And your opinion seems to be worth taking note of!:flowers:
 
I agree with you; it sounds quite laughable that someone could place this sort of quote during a first meeting. However, I don't see it as something making Camilla appear as stupid. We don't know her so we can't say if she's rather spontaneous, bold or totally the opposite. Why she would have said that? I don't know but why not?
I dont think Camilla is stupid, quite the contrary. I think she is an extremely intelligent person who knows how to go about getting exactly what she wants. As far as it sounding laughable, this was the swinging 70's (The Truth, difficult as it may seem to someone of your age this was a-ok at that time) and the 'Coffee tea or me' come on was quite an every day occurance. That book, which was quite the puff piece on Charles and Camilla directly quoted an eyewitness on the polo grounds. And as far as the Steven Barry quote, a few pages later the overnighter with Camilla the night before the C and D nuptuals was confirmed by Andrew Parker-Bowles' brother. Is he a liar too?
 
If something is written in a book or article that's generally considered reliable, especially if it shows up in more than one of them, then we're prepared to accept it as a correct account.

If something like that has been contradicted officially by Buckingham Palace, Clarence House, or any of the other offices of the royals, then it should be presented in the threads as appearing to be verified and correct but officially contradicted.

The purpose of this thread is to help build up a track record of citations from reliable sources for various events and occurrences to help our members when someone challenges them to provide chapter and verse on a topic, since not everyone has all the reference books to hand.

Elspeth I am confused by your more recent post. Does the above earlier statement no longer represent the standard for TRF? I would like to follow the guidelines of what is accepted as 'confirmed source' but it's more than a little bit confusing when the goal posts keeps moving. Especially in light of the fact that regardless of what the standard you guys set, certain posters keep denying the veracity of various well published respected sources, because 'there has been no statement from the palace and in the absence of one, it's all an urban legend'. If XYZ is the standard as accepted by TRF and certain posters keep saying we dont believe it, and the Mods dont squash it, how are we to have a conversation on any subject?
 
When was this confirmed by Parker-Bowles' brother? I've never come across that particular claim.:flowers:

And as far as the Steven Barry quote, a few pages later the overnighter with Camilla the night before the C and D nuptuals was confirmed by Andrew Parker-Bowles' brother. Is he a liar too?
 
nd as far as the Steven Barry quote, a few pages later the overnighter with Camilla the night before the C and D nuptuals was confirmed by Andrew Parker-Bowles' brother. Is he a liar too?

I recall that this rumour was set explicitely right in the Dimbleby-book where it is shown that Charles could not have spent this night with Camilla as he had already said his farewells to her. In addition Buckingham Palace that night was filled with partying guests from foreign Royality and Heads of States who stayed there as well as of the society of London. Charles was seen throughout the party till Camilla left with her husband, so could only have sneaked away for a moment. And he, as Tina Brown claims, preferred not to have trysts in his mother's spy invested palace - knowing that she would not have been amused. Marriage for the queen is a serious business and I don't think Charles would have dared to offend her in her own house at that moment. So my evaluation is that it's only malicious gossip.

When did Parker-Bowles comment on this?
 
I dont think Camilla is stupid, quite the contrary. I think she is an extremely intelligent person who knows how to go about getting exactly what she wants. As far as it sounding laughable, this was the swinging 70's (The Truth, difficult as it may seem to someone of your age this was a-ok at that time) and the 'Coffee tea or me' come on was quite an every day occurance. That book, which was quite the puff piece on Charles and Camilla directly quoted an eyewitness on the polo grounds. And as far as the Steven Barry quote, a few pages later the overnighter with Camilla the night before the C and D nuptuals was confirmed by Andrew Parker-Bowles' brother. Is he a liar too?

FWIW, the pre-wedding overnighter was debunked by Sarah Bradford.
 
Elspeth I am confused by your more recent post. Does the above earlier statement no longer represent the standard for TRF? I would like to follow the guidelines of what is accepted as 'confirmed source' but it's more than a little bit confusing when the goal posts keeps moving. Especially in light of the fact that regardless of what the standard you guys set, certain posters keep denying the veracity of various well published respected sources, because 'there has been no statement from the palace and in the absence of one, it's all an urban legend'. If XYZ is the standard as accepted by TRF and certain posters keep saying we dont believe it, and the Mods dont squash it, how are we to have a conversation on any subject?

The most reliable sources are the people themselves speaking or writing on the record, obviously. "Charles said..." is a perfectly acceptable claim if you're talking about the Dimbleby interview or the pre-wedding interview; it isn't an acceptable claim if it just shows up as a second-hand quote in half a dozen pro-Diana books and five of them cite the sixth as the source. In other words, if authors B, C, D, E, and F all say that Charles said that his father told him that he could go back to Camilla after five years if his marriage didn't work out and they all cited author A (Andrew Morton in this case) as the source, then that doesn't make it five times more reliable; it still isn't a direct quote from Charles, and it isn't six independent accounts.

If books that are written by respected biographers such as Sarah Bradford or Philip Ziegler say something that's contradicted by books by tabloid-type authors, regardless of how many tabloid-type authors we're talking about, the respected biographers are the ones who should carry more weight. The Dimbleby book is obviously biased, but it's also authorised and based on primary sources, which gives it credibility where it's talking about factual issues.

I don't know if that answers your question, but it's 4 am and I'm three quarters asleep, so I'll check back in tomorrow. Please let me know if I haven't managed to address your concerns - I'm generally more coherent when I'm at least half awake.:D
 
I dont think Camilla is stupid, quite the contrary. I think she is an extremely intelligent person who knows how to go about getting exactly what she wants. As far as it sounding laughable, this was the swinging 70's (The Truth, difficult as it may seem to someone of your age this was a-ok at that time) and the 'Coffee tea or me' come on was quite an every day occurance. That book, which was quite the puff piece on Charles and Camilla directly quoted an eyewitness on the polo grounds. And as far as the Steven Barry quote, a few pages later the overnighter with Camilla the night before the C and D nuptuals was confirmed by Andrew Parker-Bowles' brother. Is he a liar too?
The younger Parker Bowles, well what is there to say, perhaps you would be a sweetie and provide a link? :ohmy:

I was about and taking part in the 70's (the swinging was in the 60's, where I also, to a degree participated) and within the society I associated with, a 'chat up' line like that would have brought a good slap across the face! I have not read Caroline Grahams book but it doesn't sound to be an authority on the matter, especially as already, some of her claims have been debunked. It might have been a 'puff piece', but it appears to have just been full of hot air.:D
 
The same book quotes Steven Barry, then valet to Prince Charles on Charles and Camilla spending the night together the night before the Charles and Diana nuptuals as "We all knew how he felt about Camilla. It was a very emotional last assignation for them both. But to do it on that night was truly incredible. Certainly incredibly daring, if not incredibly stupid". We all know there are no secrets from the valet. When you take widely published eyewitness accounts written in a reputable book and respond by saying: I dont believe them. There has been no statement from the palace and everything else is an urban legend, that, to me, is ridiculous. Do you really expect Camilla to issue a proclamation saying 'Why yes that's exactly how it happened'?

The Stephen Barry quote is incorrect, in his first book he goes into quite some detail as to the events the night before Charles and Diana's wedding. There was a family dinner, then the family get together to watch the fireworks, Charles was not alone for any part of it. Stephen Barry also wrote that there is no privacy in Buckingham Palace so Charles when he wanted some alone time with various girlfriends he went to the country homes of friends.
Various authors quote Carolyn Graham who in turn quotes Stephen Barry's book Royal Secrets with saying that 'the woman on the train' was Camilla. Nowhere in the book Royal Secrets does he say that, also he categorically stated in his book Royal Service that there was NO woman on the train.

Stephen Barry died before Charles and Diana's marriage imploded various information is credited to him but actually reading his books debunks the myths that tend to quote him as the source.

Just because a 'factoid' is printed in a book doesn't make it a fact, even if it's repeated in several books! Reputable books are ones where a researcher can check the footnotes to assess whether or not they are accurate and credible. Carolyn Graham's biography doesn't have that credibility, there was a fair amount of artistic licence, especially in relation to Stephen Barry as his information is all 'on the record'.
 
Interesting addition to the topic, thank you very much for it.:flowers:
 
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I was about and taking part in the 70's (the swinging was in the 60's, where I also, to a degree participated) and within the society I associated with, a 'chat up' line like that would have brought a good slap across the face! I have not read Caroline Grahams book but it doesn't sound to be an authority on the matter, especially as already, some of her claims have been debunked. It might have been a 'puff piece', but it appears to have just been full of hot air.:D

That's what I thought, too. I "came out" in the late 70ties (Okay, due to WWII and the situation afterwards, my family as refugees, it was not a real Come Out, but it was the way my family allowed me to join parties etc.) but there was no way I would have spoken to a young man I met in such terms! It was still a time when on talking at being introduced one tried to adept to "polite" ideas, even if you did hugging, kissing, petting and more afterwards. To be "crude" even in the most positive way you needed to have standing in a social group already while you reverted to good manners when newly introduced to new people. And this is just my experience of post-war Germany, when so many things had changed (though I still recall sitting wearing my best dress with shimmering lacque shoes on uncomfortable chairs in dusty reception salons being bored to death while my grandmother had been invited into the private boudoir of her friend for tea... am I glad that these times are over!) while in Britain surely they lived on for much longer.

So my evaluation stands: she wouldn't have said that on her first meeting. Never!
 
We're getting well off the point here. This thread was meant to be a place where members could request sources for alleged statements or situations. While personal experiences are valid in themselves they have no direct bearing on the veracity or otherwise of what is claimed to have been said on the first occasion that Charles met Camilla.
 
Let's make it easy so that we are all on the same page...why not give us a list of books/authors who would be seen as being considered authoratative and who would not. Because there are many books on the subject. Obviously someone like Ms. Kelley is more interested in generating sales than anything else. But certainly there are many others which have exhaustively researched their subjects and whose publishing houses have factchecked scrupulously to avoid libel charges. Obviously, Dimbleby speaks for Prince Charles and Morton speaks for the Ps of Wales. Who else would be considered to be a reliable source?

Skydragon, I would love to 'provide a link', but I am afraid I havent a clue how to do that or post pictures. Later this week I will dig up the exact quote and page in the book.
Charlotte1, that Barry quote was the exact quote from the book. Page 83 Charles and Camilla: The love story by Caroline Graham.

I am being chased off my laptop by Mr Scooter, who must borrow it to prepare for a meeting. See you tomorrow!
 
Charlotte1, that Barry quote was the exact quote from the book. Page 83 Charles and Camilla: The love story by Caroline Graham.
I don't doubt that's what is written in the book and it well illustrates the point just because something is in a book it doesn't make it a fact. Stephen Barry died in 1986 or 87, more than 10 years before Caroline Graham wrote her book so where does she get her quote attributed to him? Not from what he wrote, that's all available, also during the time he was alive he very much supported the view of the 'fairytale marriage' and that's what has remained 'on the record' from him. Anything else is heresay, anyone can attribute any comment to him as he's not alive to deny it or sue for misrapresentation.

From his book "Royal Service" in his own words here is Stephen Barry's version of the night before Charles and Diana's wedding.
page213.

" The final rehearsal was held the night before the wedding---and the night of the fireworks. After the rehearsal, the Royals had supper at Buckingham Palace while we, the staff went to Hyde Park. There was a stand for us where we had a superb view"

So the night before there was the wedding rehearsal, family supper, the viewing of the fireworks, royals from Buckingham Palace. The fireworks would have been quite late as the English summer twilight lingers until late and the fireworks would have gone off once it was dark. Other sources such as the papers of the day also had the events of that night, Camilla Parker Bowles wasn't at BP.

Stephen Barry again in his own words Royal Service p169 ( writing in relation to Prince Charles having women spend the night at BP) Buckingham Palace was totally unsuitable for anything secret to take place. His ( Charles's) rooms were in a straight line along a corridor...... His friends in country houses where he spent many weekends might have turned a blind eye certainly.

There's no real 'approved' list of royal books, it's up to the individual to check the accuracy and credibility of each book. I always begin with checking if the book has footnotes, then if I question what is written I can check the source. Not all footnotes are accurate, as I checked the footnote that Stephen Barry claimed that Camilla was "the woman on the train" The footnote attributed this quote to SB's book Royal Secrets, checked that book and SB never wrote that so the claim was wrong even though it was footnoted. SB isn't alive so no-one to dispute what was written.
Many books too quote other books, who in turn quote another book so the reader needs to try and get to the original source, and that often does come down ( in the Diana books) to Andrew Morton as the information came from Diana. So then one receives the Diana version of history, not necessarily the true version and yet it's all written up and nicely footnoted in different books.
To get an accurate version of events, read widely, check footnotes, read newspaper archives, what was written at the time tends to give a more accurate picture than the revisionism that came later.
 
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Dear fellow posters, we all read the books thoroughly. My question to Elspeth and co...if you would like to cut down on the amount of 'he said she said'....can you please give us a list of which authors are considered authoratative? :)
 
Could this thread be moved to the main British forum?

Because I think it could be useful for a lot of discussions, not just Charles and Diana. There are conflicting sources about Edward VIII's abdication and rumours about George V being given euthanasia, and the Duke of Clarence being Jack the Ripper or at least a morally corrupt, young man and a reference on sources would be good for all of them.

My own personal sense is that we can't get a totally authoritative source unless we've seen something ourselves. For example, its easy to look at pictures of Charles and Diana in South Korea and know that something was terribly wrong between them. But what? Then we have to go to what people say and even Charles' or Diana's words may not be the gospel truth. We can verify that they said something but we can't verify whether what they said was the truth unless their words are confirmed by other independent sources.
 
OK, as an example (I'm going to type this out even though I'm sure Warren will remove it):. Stephen Barry (the POW former valet who was in a position to know) and APB's brother were quoted in published books vetted for libel under the British system as saying that the night before Charles' first marriage he and Camilla spent the night together tearing up the sheets. What woman on the planet thinks that is ok? I quote:
"As the party reached it's end, around half past 2 that Tuesday morning, the day before the wedding, Charles and Camilla slipped away.

As the Prince's valet Stephen Barry said: "We all knew how he felt about Camilla. It was a very emotional last assignation for them both. But to do it that night was truly incredible. Certainly incredibly daring, if not incredibly stupid.'

Bertie, just to once again be on the record. I have answered the question asked time after time and been deleted over and over again. I am not ducking the question. Certain mods dont like the answer to why I dont like C.

Now, just so that I am not furhter accused of ducking the argument, my 85 year old MIL broke her hip today and more than likely I wont be able to look in on you guys for a few days until she is stabilized. A happy new year to all of you and yours here at TRF! Hopefully your week will be better than mine.
 
OK, as an example (I'm going to type this out even though I'm sure Warren will remove it):. Stephen Barry (the POW former valet who was in a position to know) and APB's brother were quoted in published books vetted for libel under the British system as saying that the night before Charles' first marriage he and Camilla spent the night together tearing up the sheets. What woman on the planet thinks that is ok? I quote:
"As the party reached it's end, around half past 2 that Tuesday morning, the day before the wedding, Charles and Camilla slipped away.

As the Prince's valet Stephen Barry said: "We all knew how he felt about Camilla. It was a very emotional last assignation for them both. But to do it that night was truly incredible. Certainly incredibly daring, if not incredibly stupid.'

.

Stephen Barry did not make the above statement on the record, it is in neither of his 2 books. He died before Charles and Camilla's affair became public, it is easy to allocate any quotes to him as he's not alive or was alive at the time these books were written to deny what he has claimed to have said. Therefore there's no libel as he's not around to claim it!

In his actual book "Royal Service" he does write about the events on the night in question, family dinner, watching the fireworks. Also other sources have stated that Camilla wasn't at BP on that particular night. It was a family only dinner and Charles had family around him all night! Simon Parker Bowles is not a reliable source as he was estranged from the family.
 
Charlotte, thank you for your clear and unemotive clarification of the facts in question in post 703. :)

It is always easy to shake a family tree to expose a skeleton or two, not to mention the "not-so-loyal retainers", take a little "hot gossip", spice it up and publish it as "fact". Your clarification of the references quoted is very much appriciated. :flowers:
 
Stephen Barry did not make the above statement on the record, it is in neither of his 2 books. He died before Charles and Camilla's affair became public, it is easy to allocate any quotes to him as he's not alive or was alive at the time these books were written to deny what he has claimed to have said. Therefore there's no libel as he's not around to claim it!

In his actual book "Royal Service" he does write about the events on the night in question, family dinner, watching the fireworks. Also other sources have stated that Camilla wasn't at BP on that particular night. It was a family only dinner and Charles had family around him all night! Simon Parker Bowles is not a reliable source as he was estranged from the family.


Thank you for writing what I remember reading but couldn't remember the sources. My memory relating to the train incident is that it allegedly happened in November 1980 (and I can find no mention of a later date than that) which was before any engagement - official or unofficial to Diana i.e. before he had decided whether or not he loved Diana enough to propose.
 
OK, as an example (I'm going to type this out even though I'm sure Warren will remove it.
Since I have been introduced into the debate let me state for the record that the deletions referred to here relate to the "the tapes" and Scooter's determination to introduce the subject when it has no relevance whatsoever to the topic under discussion, that is: "Charles and Camilla: How has your opinion changed since the wedding?"

The secondary tangent which has been introduced is an opinion of Charles and Camilla before Charles married Diana. Once again, "the tapes" and their contents have no relevance whatsoever to events which occurred prior to July 1981.

I will continue to remove attempts to introduce "the tapes" into the discussion despite the apparent pleasure shown by some in posting the more personal and 'salacious' contents.

I trust this is clear.
 
OK, as an example (I'm going to type this out even though I'm sure Warren will remove it):. Stephen Barry (the POW former valet who was in a position to know) and APB's brother were quoted in published books vetted for libel under the British system as saying that the night before Charles' first marriage he and Camilla spent the night together tearing up the sheets.
I don't mean to intrude further into the discussion but I should point out Scooter that you raised this very same Stephen Barry/Parker Bowles brother issue just over two months ago, in late October, in the Questions About Sources thread.

The Stephen Barry discussion: October 21, 2008, beginning with your post 38.

Elspeth replied to your post and advised "FWIW, the pre-wedding overnighter was debunked by Sarah Bradford" at post 42, and Charlotte1 made a lengthy reply at post 45, beginning "The Stephen Barry quote is incorrect..." followed by further detail at post 50.

We seem to be going over the same events and the same misquotes and quotes at a faster pace, and once again the thread is veering off onto another tangent..
 
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Thank you for writing what I remember reading but couldn't remember the sources. My memory relating to the train incident is that it allegedly happened in November 1980 (and I can find no mention of a later date than that) which was before any engagement - official or unofficial to Diana i.e. before he had decided whether or not he loved Diana enough to propose.

The train incident: Tina Brown makes quite a convincing scenario that it was not Camilla but Diana on the train that night, because she found a witness who could verify that the car which brought the "blonde guest" belonged to Diana's mother. Brown claims that Diana stayed at Camilla's (she has a witness for that as well - and shows that in fact Diana could have driven up to Camilla's that night instead of going to bed, as she claimed she had done)) that night and was encouraged by Camilla to drive over to spend an unsupervised evening/night with Charles.

The other scenario would see Camilla having Diana as her secret guest and Camilla taking Diana's car to meet with Charles while Diana slept peacefully at Camilla's. But why in this case Diana would claim she slept at home is beyond me.

When we discuss the plausibilities, then for me the most believable explanation is that Camilla in fact tried to help Charles find a suitable bride and thought Diana was her. We have Diana's own word for that and that Camilla tried to befriend her. So it is believable that Camilla encouraged Charles to spend more time with Diana alone before proposing and that she offered her home as starting point for that night on the Royal train. Both Charles and Diana at that time had an interest to keep the relationship under the wrap a bit longer, so Diana went out publicically that night but went home early. This is well documented by the media. But instead of actually going to bed, she changed clothes and took her car to drive to Camilla's home to get the information how to find the Royal train and to have a place where she could come back afterwards, as she still needed the wrap of the darkness. The next morning she drove home from Camilla's.

Only after it became known that a lady had been at the Royal train, Diana's family decided that it would not do that their "virginal" girl spent the night with the prince, so Lord Fermoy dismissed this in public. Probably they thought about what had happened to Sarah Spencer and tried feverishly to protect Diana on victimizing Camilla in the process. I doubt Camilla minded that much back then, after all she had done nothing untoward and her husbnad knew that Diana had been there that night, so knew that it was in fact Diana on the train. But of course later this old story backfired at her and brought eg Sarah Bradfors and Gyles Brandreth to condem her in their books. The Royal train-incident is a very important point of how you view Camilla and if you believe Charles had an affair with her pre-Diana.

I personally believe Charles as he stated it to Dimbleby and think it was Diana at the train, even though Diana herself never confessed to it and used the rumours later to blame her husband and Camilla.
 
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