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  #41  
Old 10-21-2008, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
nd as far as the Steven Barry quote, a few pages later the overnighter with Camilla the night before the C and D nuptuals was confirmed by Andrew Parker-Bowles' brother. Is he a liar too?
I recall that this rumour was set explicitely right in the Dimbleby-book where it is shown that Charles could not have spent this night with Camilla as he had already said his farewells to her. In addition Buckingham Palace that night was filled with partying guests from foreign Royality and Heads of States who stayed there as well as of the society of London. Charles was seen throughout the party till Camilla left with her husband, so could only have sneaked away for a moment. And he, as Tina Brown claims, preferred not to have trysts in his mother's spy invested palace - knowing that she would not have been amused. Marriage for the queen is a serious business and I don't think Charles would have dared to offend her in her own house at that moment. So my evaluation is that it's only malicious gossip.

When did Parker-Bowles comment on this?
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  #42  
Old 10-21-2008, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
I dont think Camilla is stupid, quite the contrary. I think she is an extremely intelligent person who knows how to go about getting exactly what she wants. As far as it sounding laughable, this was the swinging 70's (The Truth, difficult as it may seem to someone of your age this was a-ok at that time) and the 'Coffee tea or me' come on was quite an every day occurance. That book, which was quite the puff piece on Charles and Camilla directly quoted an eyewitness on the polo grounds. And as far as the Steven Barry quote, a few pages later the overnighter with Camilla the night before the C and D nuptuals was confirmed by Andrew Parker-Bowles' brother. Is he a liar too?
FWIW, the pre-wedding overnighter was debunked by Sarah Bradford.
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  #43  
Old 10-21-2008, 04:17 AM
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Elspeth I am confused by your more recent post. Does the above earlier statement no longer represent the standard for TRF? I would like to follow the guidelines of what is accepted as 'confirmed source' but it's more than a little bit confusing when the goal posts keeps moving. Especially in light of the fact that regardless of what the standard you guys set, certain posters keep denying the veracity of various well published respected sources, because 'there has been no statement from the palace and in the absence of one, it's all an urban legend'. If XYZ is the standard as accepted by TRF and certain posters keep saying we dont believe it, and the Mods dont squash it, how are we to have a conversation on any subject?
The most reliable sources are the people themselves speaking or writing on the record, obviously. "Charles said..." is a perfectly acceptable claim if you're talking about the Dimbleby interview or the pre-wedding interview; it isn't an acceptable claim if it just shows up as a second-hand quote in half a dozen pro-Diana books and five of them cite the sixth as the source. In other words, if authors B, C, D, E, and F all say that Charles said that his father told him that he could go back to Camilla after five years if his marriage didn't work out and they all cited author A (Andrew Morton in this case) as the source, then that doesn't make it five times more reliable; it still isn't a direct quote from Charles, and it isn't six independent accounts.

If books that are written by respected biographers such as Sarah Bradford or Philip Ziegler say something that's contradicted by books by tabloid-type authors, regardless of how many tabloid-type authors we're talking about, the respected biographers are the ones who should carry more weight. The Dimbleby book is obviously biased, but it's also authorised and based on primary sources, which gives it credibility where it's talking about factual issues.

I don't know if that answers your question, but it's 4 am and I'm three quarters asleep, so I'll check back in tomorrow. Please let me know if I haven't managed to address your concerns - I'm generally more coherent when I'm at least half awake.
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  #44  
Old 10-21-2008, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
I dont think Camilla is stupid, quite the contrary. I think she is an extremely intelligent person who knows how to go about getting exactly what she wants. As far as it sounding laughable, this was the swinging 70's (The Truth, difficult as it may seem to someone of your age this was a-ok at that time) and the 'Coffee tea or me' come on was quite an every day occurance. That book, which was quite the puff piece on Charles and Camilla directly quoted an eyewitness on the polo grounds. And as far as the Steven Barry quote, a few pages later the overnighter with Camilla the night before the C and D nuptuals was confirmed by Andrew Parker-Bowles' brother. Is he a liar too?
The younger Parker Bowles, well what is there to say, perhaps you would be a sweetie and provide a link?

I was about and taking part in the 70's (the swinging was in the 60's, where I also, to a degree participated) and within the society I associated with, a 'chat up' line like that would have brought a good slap across the face! I have not read Caroline Grahams book but it doesn't sound to be an authority on the matter, especially as already, some of her claims have been debunked. It might have been a 'puff piece', but it appears to have just been full of hot air.
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  #45  
Old 10-21-2008, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
The same book quotes Steven Barry, then valet to Prince Charles on Charles and Camilla spending the night together the night before the Charles and Diana nuptuals as "We all knew how he felt about Camilla. It was a very emotional last assignation for them both. But to do it on that night was truly incredible. Certainly incredibly daring, if not incredibly stupid". We all know there are no secrets from the valet. When you take widely published eyewitness accounts written in a reputable book and respond by saying: I dont believe them. There has been no statement from the palace and everything else is an urban legend, that, to me, is ridiculous. Do you really expect Camilla to issue a proclamation saying 'Why yes that's exactly how it happened'?
The Stephen Barry quote is incorrect, in his first book he goes into quite some detail as to the events the night before Charles and Diana's wedding. There was a family dinner, then the family get together to watch the fireworks, Charles was not alone for any part of it. Stephen Barry also wrote that there is no privacy in Buckingham Palace so Charles when he wanted some alone time with various girlfriends he went to the country homes of friends.
Various authors quote Carolyn Graham who in turn quotes Stephen Barry's book Royal Secrets with saying that 'the woman on the train' was Camilla. Nowhere in the book Royal Secrets does he say that, also he categorically stated in his book Royal Service that there was NO woman on the train.

Stephen Barry died before Charles and Diana's marriage imploded various information is credited to him but actually reading his books debunks the myths that tend to quote him as the source.

Just because a 'factoid' is printed in a book doesn't make it a fact, even if it's repeated in several books! Reputable books are ones where a researcher can check the footnotes to assess whether or not they are accurate and credible. Carolyn Graham's biography doesn't have that credibility, there was a fair amount of artistic licence, especially in relation to Stephen Barry as his information is all 'on the record'.
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  #46  
Old 10-21-2008, 08:19 AM
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Interesting addition to the topic, thank you very much for it.
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  #47  
Old 10-21-2008, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I was about and taking part in the 70's (the swinging was in the 60's, where I also, to a degree participated) and within the society I associated with, a 'chat up' line like that would have brought a good slap across the face! I have not read Caroline Grahams book but it doesn't sound to be an authority on the matter, especially as already, some of her claims have been debunked. It might have been a 'puff piece', but it appears to have just been full of hot air.
That's what I thought, too. I "came out" in the late 70ties (Okay, due to WWII and the situation afterwards, my family as refugees, it was not a real Come Out, but it was the way my family allowed me to join parties etc.) but there was no way I would have spoken to a young man I met in such terms! It was still a time when on talking at being introduced one tried to adept to "polite" ideas, even if you did hugging, kissing, petting and more afterwards. To be "crude" even in the most positive way you needed to have standing in a social group already while you reverted to good manners when newly introduced to new people. And this is just my experience of post-war Germany, when so many things had changed (though I still recall sitting wearing my best dress with shimmering lacque shoes on uncomfortable chairs in dusty reception salons being bored to death while my grandmother had been invited into the private boudoir of her friend for tea... am I glad that these times are over!) while in Britain surely they lived on for much longer.

So my evaluation stands: she wouldn't have said that on her first meeting. Never!
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  #48  
Old 10-21-2008, 09:41 AM
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We're getting well off the point here. This thread was meant to be a place where members could request sources for alleged statements or situations. While personal experiences are valid in themselves they have no direct bearing on the veracity or otherwise of what is claimed to have been said on the first occasion that Charles met Camilla.
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  #49  
Old 10-21-2008, 08:24 PM
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Let's make it easy so that we are all on the same page...why not give us a list of books/authors who would be seen as being considered authoratative and who would not. Because there are many books on the subject. Obviously someone like Ms. Kelley is more interested in generating sales than anything else. But certainly there are many others which have exhaustively researched their subjects and whose publishing houses have factchecked scrupulously to avoid libel charges. Obviously, Dimbleby speaks for Prince Charles and Morton speaks for the Ps of Wales. Who else would be considered to be a reliable source?

Skydragon, I would love to 'provide a link', but I am afraid I havent a clue how to do that or post pictures. Later this week I will dig up the exact quote and page in the book.
Charlotte1, that Barry quote was the exact quote from the book. Page 83 Charles and Camilla: The love story by Caroline Graham.

I am being chased off my laptop by Mr Scooter, who must borrow it to prepare for a meeting. See you tomorrow!
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  #50  
Old 10-22-2008, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Charlotte1, that Barry quote was the exact quote from the book. Page 83 Charles and Camilla: The love story by Caroline Graham.
I don't doubt that's what is written in the book and it well illustrates the point just because something is in a book it doesn't make it a fact. Stephen Barry died in 1986 or 87, more than 10 years before Caroline Graham wrote her book so where does she get her quote attributed to him? Not from what he wrote, that's all available, also during the time he was alive he very much supported the view of the 'fairytale marriage' and that's what has remained 'on the record' from him. Anything else is heresay, anyone can attribute any comment to him as he's not alive to deny it or sue for misrapresentation.

From his book "Royal Service" in his own words here is Stephen Barry's version of the night before Charles and Diana's wedding.
page213.

" The final rehearsal was held the night before the wedding---and the night of the fireworks. After the rehearsal, the Royals had supper at Buckingham Palace while we, the staff went to Hyde Park. There was a stand for us where we had a superb view"

So the night before there was the wedding rehearsal, family supper, the viewing of the fireworks, royals from Buckingham Palace. The fireworks would have been quite late as the English summer twilight lingers until late and the fireworks would have gone off once it was dark. Other sources such as the papers of the day also had the events of that night, Camilla Parker Bowles wasn't at BP.

Stephen Barry again in his own words Royal Service p169 ( writing in relation to Prince Charles having women spend the night at BP) Buckingham Palace was totally unsuitable for anything secret to take place. His ( Charles's) rooms were in a straight line along a corridor...... His friends in country houses where he spent many weekends might have turned a blind eye certainly.

There's no real 'approved' list of royal books, it's up to the individual to check the accuracy and credibility of each book. I always begin with checking if the book has footnotes, then if I question what is written I can check the source. Not all footnotes are accurate, as I checked the footnote that Stephen Barry claimed that Camilla was "the woman on the train" The footnote attributed this quote to SB's book Royal Secrets, checked that book and SB never wrote that so the claim was wrong even though it was footnoted. SB isn't alive so no-one to dispute what was written.
Many books too quote other books, who in turn quote another book so the reader needs to try and get to the original source, and that often does come down ( in the Diana books) to Andrew Morton as the information came from Diana. So then one receives the Diana version of history, not necessarily the true version and yet it's all written up and nicely footnoted in different books.
To get an accurate version of events, read widely, check footnotes, read newspaper archives, what was written at the time tends to give a more accurate picture than the revisionism that came later.
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  #51  
Old 10-22-2008, 10:20 PM
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Dear fellow posters, we all read the books thoroughly. My question to Elspeth and co...if you would like to cut down on the amount of 'he said she said'....can you please give us a list of which authors are considered authoratative? :-)
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  #52  
Old 10-23-2008, 08:40 PM
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Could this thread be moved to the main British forum?

Because I think it could be useful for a lot of discussions, not just Charles and Diana. There are conflicting sources about Edward VIII's abdication and rumours about George V being given euthanasia, and the Duke of Clarence being Jack the Ripper or at least a morally corrupt, young man and a reference on sources would be good for all of them.

My own personal sense is that we can't get a totally authoritative source unless we've seen something ourselves. For example, its easy to look at pictures of Charles and Diana in South Korea and know that something was terribly wrong between them. But what? Then we have to go to what people say and even Charles' or Diana's words may not be the gospel truth. We can verify that they said something but we can't verify whether what they said was the truth unless their words are confirmed by other independent sources.
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  #53  
Old 10-24-2008, 12:50 PM
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Ysbel, we have this sticky in the main forum already

Citation of Sources in British Forum Threads

and it isn't locked, so people can discuss sources there. Do you think we need something more than that over there?
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  #54  
Old 01-02-2009, 09:03 PM
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OK, as an example (I'm going to type this out even though I'm sure Warren will remove it):. Stephen Barry (the POW former valet who was in a position to know) and APB's brother were quoted in published books vetted for libel under the British system as saying that the night before Charles' first marriage he and Camilla spent the night together tearing up the sheets. What woman on the planet thinks that is ok? I quote:
"As the party reached it's end, around half past 2 that Tuesday morning, the day before the wedding, Charles and Camilla slipped away.

As the Prince's valet Stephen Barry said: "We all knew how he felt about Camilla. It was a very emotional last assignation for them both. But to do it that night was truly incredible. Certainly incredibly daring, if not incredibly stupid.'

Bertie, just to once again be on the record. I have answered the question asked time after time and been deleted over and over again. I am not ducking the question. Certain mods dont like the answer to why I dont like C.

Now, just so that I am not furhter accused of ducking the argument, my 85 year old MIL broke her hip today and more than likely I wont be able to look in on you guys for a few days until she is stabilized. A happy new year to all of you and yours here at TRF! Hopefully your week will be better than mine.
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  #55  
Old 01-02-2009, 11:35 PM
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OK, as an example (I'm going to type this out even though I'm sure Warren will remove it):. Stephen Barry (the POW former valet who was in a position to know) and APB's brother were quoted in published books vetted for libel under the British system as saying that the night before Charles' first marriage he and Camilla spent the night together tearing up the sheets. What woman on the planet thinks that is ok? I quote:
"As the party reached it's end, around half past 2 that Tuesday morning, the day before the wedding, Charles and Camilla slipped away.

As the Prince's valet Stephen Barry said: "We all knew how he felt about Camilla. It was a very emotional last assignation for them both. But to do it that night was truly incredible. Certainly incredibly daring, if not incredibly stupid.'

.
Stephen Barry did not make the above statement on the record, it is in neither of his 2 books. He died before Charles and Camilla's affair became public, it is easy to allocate any quotes to him as he's not alive or was alive at the time these books were written to deny what he has claimed to have said. Therefore there's no libel as he's not around to claim it!

In his actual book "Royal Service" he does write about the events on the night in question, family dinner, watching the fireworks. Also other sources have stated that Camilla wasn't at BP on that particular night. It was a family only dinner and Charles had family around him all night! Simon Parker Bowles is not a reliable source as he was estranged from the family.
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  #56  
Old 01-03-2009, 06:17 AM
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Charlotte, thank you for your clear and unemotive clarification of the facts in question in post 703.

It is always easy to shake a family tree to expose a skeleton or two, not to mention the "not-so-loyal retainers", take a little "hot gossip", spice it up and publish it as "fact". Your clarification of the references quoted is very much appriciated.
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  #57  
Old 01-03-2009, 06:43 AM
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Stephen Barry did not make the above statement on the record, it is in neither of his 2 books. He died before Charles and Camilla's affair became public, it is easy to allocate any quotes to him as he's not alive or was alive at the time these books were written to deny what he has claimed to have said. Therefore there's no libel as he's not around to claim it!

In his actual book "Royal Service" he does write about the events on the night in question, family dinner, watching the fireworks. Also other sources have stated that Camilla wasn't at BP on that particular night. It was a family only dinner and Charles had family around him all night! Simon Parker Bowles is not a reliable source as he was estranged from the family.

Thank you for writing what I remember reading but couldn't remember the sources. My memory relating to the train incident is that it allegedly happened in November 1980 (and I can find no mention of a later date than that) which was before any engagement - official or unofficial to Diana i.e. before he had decided whether or not he loved Diana enough to propose.
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:06 AM
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OK, as an example (I'm going to type this out even though I'm sure Warren will remove it.
Since I have been introduced into the debate let me state for the record that the deletions referred to here relate to the "the tapes" and Scooter's determination to introduce the subject when it has no relevance whatsoever to the topic under discussion, that is: "Charles and Camilla: How has your opinion changed since the wedding?"

The secondary tangent which has been introduced is an opinion of Charles and Camilla before Charles married Diana. Once again, "the tapes" and their contents have no relevance whatsoever to events which occurred prior to July 1981.

I will continue to remove attempts to introduce "the tapes" into the discussion despite the apparent pleasure shown by some in posting the more personal and 'salacious' contents.

I trust this is clear.
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:34 AM
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OK, as an example (I'm going to type this out even though I'm sure Warren will remove it):. Stephen Barry (the POW former valet who was in a position to know) and APB's brother were quoted in published books vetted for libel under the British system as saying that the night before Charles' first marriage he and Camilla spent the night together tearing up the sheets.
I don't mean to intrude further into the discussion but I should point out Scooter that you raised this very same Stephen Barry/Parker Bowles brother issue just over two months ago, in late October, in the Questions About Sources thread.

The Stephen Barry discussion: October 21, 2008, beginning with your post 38.

Elspeth replied to your post and advised "FWIW, the pre-wedding overnighter was debunked by Sarah Bradford" at post 42, and Charlotte1 made a lengthy reply at post 45, beginning "The Stephen Barry quote is incorrect..." followed by further detail at post 50.

We seem to be going over the same events and the same misquotes and quotes at a faster pace, and once again the thread is veering off onto another tangent..
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:39 AM
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Thank you for writing what I remember reading but couldn't remember the sources. My memory relating to the train incident is that it allegedly happened in November 1980 (and I can find no mention of a later date than that) which was before any engagement - official or unofficial to Diana i.e. before he had decided whether or not he loved Diana enough to propose.
The train incident: Tina Brown makes quite a convincing scenario that it was not Camilla but Diana on the train that night, because she found a witness who could verify that the car which brought the "blonde guest" belonged to Diana's mother. Brown claims that Diana stayed at Camilla's (she has a witness for that as well - and shows that in fact Diana could have driven up to Camilla's that night instead of going to bed, as she claimed she had done)) that night and was encouraged by Camilla to drive over to spend an unsupervised evening/night with Charles.

The other scenario would see Camilla having Diana as her secret guest and Camilla taking Diana's car to meet with Charles while Diana slept peacefully at Camilla's. But why in this case Diana would claim she slept at home is beyond me.

When we discuss the plausibilities, then for me the most believable explanation is that Camilla in fact tried to help Charles find a suitable bride and thought Diana was her. We have Diana's own word for that and that Camilla tried to befriend her. So it is believable that Camilla encouraged Charles to spend more time with Diana alone before proposing and that she offered her home as starting point for that night on the Royal train. Both Charles and Diana at that time had an interest to keep the relationship under the wrap a bit longer, so Diana went out publicically that night but went home early. This is well documented by the media. But instead of actually going to bed, she changed clothes and took her car to drive to Camilla's home to get the information how to find the Royal train and to have a place where she could come back afterwards, as she still needed the wrap of the darkness. The next morning she drove home from Camilla's.

Only after it became known that a lady had been at the Royal train, Diana's family decided that it would not do that their "virginal" girl spent the night with the prince, so Lord Fermoy dismissed this in public. Probably they thought about what had happened to Sarah Spencer and tried feverishly to protect Diana on victimizing Camilla in the process. I doubt Camilla minded that much back then, after all she had done nothing untoward and her husbnad knew that Diana had been there that night, so knew that it was in fact Diana on the train. But of course later this old story backfired at her and brought eg Sarah Bradfors and Gyles Brandreth to condem her in their books. The Royal train-incident is a very important point of how you view Camilla and if you believe Charles had an affair with her pre-Diana.

I personally believe Charles as he stated it to Dimbleby and think it was Diana at the train, even though Diana herself never confessed to it and used the rumours later to blame her husband and Camilla.
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