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  #81  
Old 05-26-2015, 06:30 AM
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character assassination is what happens here regrading Diana.
Wouldn't happen with a living princess but she's dead so let's say whatever we like ! I don't understand the hatred people have for her or why they are allowed to be disrespectful when we can't be with any living princess. JMO


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  #82  
Old 05-26-2015, 06:53 AM
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I think it is absolute not right for Diana to push her step-mother off a step. But it is arguable whether it is due to her character or her mental illness at that time (bulimia and depression).

But I don't see the necessity to over exaggerate it as Diana wanted to harm Raine intentionally. It is a step not stair. It might be a big step or a small step. I tend to believe it is a small step, because considering there were so many guests and photographers in the event (Charles Spencer's wedding was a big social event at that time), no one and no news had came out to talk about this incident at all. So it is very likely so minor that people didn't even notice.

No doubt the incident had happened. But without any witness, any news, there is no need to exaggerate it. The good news is, Diana and Raine became good friends later and the friendship lasted for many years. There is no need to imagine a story like Raine was an angel, Diana was an evil, and the angel loved the evil so much, she missed the evil long after she died, and made a statement to beg for the justice for the evil to make her rip.
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  #83  
Old 05-26-2015, 08:28 AM
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I guess I just don't understand the length people go to take very part of Diana's life and condemn her. I would never spend my time doing that about someone who is dead. There are so many terrible things happening in the world at the moment I would think a royal forum would be a happy retreat away from the bad of the world. IMO they seems to be more hate than love here. I know I should just not read the Diana's threads. But to me and I'm sure others Diana was someone I loved seeing and reading about. But there's no happiness here anything anyone says that is the least bit nice is slapped down. It's all " but this book or I heard or I teach ". I guess you must enjoy it I just don't understand it.


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  #84  
Old 05-26-2015, 11:53 AM
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Are people still going over the rocky start of Diana's relationship with her stepmother, of which their relationship approved very well and long before Diana died?
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  #85  
Old 05-26-2015, 02:24 PM
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I agree with you, Marg. Raine must be a very forgiving woman.

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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
To hear that Raine not only forgave Diana but also came to love her, says more about the true nature of Raine than Diana. But, that Raine forgave her did not alter the fact of what Diana did and said and how ugly it all was.
I'm one of those people as well. I prefer to look at my old picture books and think about the young, beautiful princess who was only a year older than I. However, that's only part of the picture. I've had to admit, reluctantly, that there were parts of her character that we very different from the public image. I believe that she did care about the people she served. I think that she had a genuine, unaffected kindness and did 'light up a room.' I don't make comments with the intent of slapping down any happy memories. Perhaps there should be a 'happy memories of Diana' thread here for those who want to remember the good times, free of controversy.

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But to me and I'm sure others Diana was someone I loved seeing and reading about. But there's no happiness here anything anyone says that is the least bit nice is slapped down. It's all " but this book or I heard or I teach ". I guess you must enjoy it I just don't understand it.


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  #86  
Old 05-26-2015, 02:56 PM
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I'm one of those people as well. I prefer to look at my old picture books and think about the young, beautiful princess who was only a year older than I. However, that's only part of the picture. I've had to admit, reluctantly, that there were parts of her character that we very different from the public image. I believe that she did care about the people she served. I think that she had a genuine, unaffected kindness and did 'light up a room.' I don't make comments with the intent of slapping down any happy memories. Perhaps there should be a 'happy memories of Diana' thread here for those who want to remember the good times, free of controversy.
She wasn't perfect, but there were lots of good things Diana did and happy memories of her and with her families. A lot of those happy memories get pushed to the deep, dark, and far background in order to make tons and tons of room for the unhappy memories, unfounded rumors and controversy. In the end, those are the memories that stick and are remembered the most. It's just sad.
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  #87  
Old 05-26-2015, 05:45 PM
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I agree with you, Marg. Raine must be a very forgiving woman.
Yes so forgiving that she refused to shake hand with Diana's mother Frances. Raine's explanation is because Frances caused a lot of pain to John Spencer. But don't forget John Spencer was a physical abusive husband too. Even she was right, after so many years she still can not forgive Frances? Doesn't sound like an extremely forgiving person to me.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mean to degrade Raine Spencer, just fed up with the opinion that Raine Spencer loved Diana very much was only because Raine was such an forgiving woman, rather than they just simply had mutual respect and fondness towards each other.
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  #88  
Old 05-26-2015, 06:41 PM
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One thing I do have noticed and need to remark on here. No one is trying to specifically "speak ill of the dead" and degrade Diana. This is a discussion forum and not a teeny bopper fan board and we are here to freely discuss topics in relation to royals. In this sub forum, its Diana.

Diana was human. She was a royal princess that ended up not a royal princess. She did good. She did bad and she did stupid. Just like every one of us if we were honest. She had a short life and was in the public eye. Her mistake was to drag her private affairs and woes of her marriage in front of the camera and press. She did wonderful charity work. She did not get along all the time with people. She died young and tragically. Her life is now frozen in time and the memory of her will fade with time.

We're lucky to have a discussion forum like this to not only remember Diana, but to discuss various facets of her life, her work, her personality and her loves and foibles. To only present the gushing, sweet, gooey things that are Diana is to ignore the total person she was.
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  #89  
Old 05-26-2015, 07:25 PM
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I think what mattered the most is that although there was antagonism between Raine and the Spencer children, Diana and Raine did come to have a good relationship before she died.
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  #90  
Old 05-26-2015, 09:45 PM
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Posts discussing Diana's relationship with Barry Mannakee have been moved to the 'Diana's Friends, Lovers and Bodyguards' thread.

I have had to delete and edit a ton of off-topic posts. This thread is not about religion, Diana's mental health, the relationship she had with Mannakee, or whether or not the younger generation remember her.

I understand that discussions about Diana can be polarizing, but I need to remind everyone that personal attacks against other members are against the forum rules. Any further off-topic posts will be deleted.
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  #91  
Old 05-27-2015, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by anbrida View Post
I think it is absolute not right for Diana to push her step-mother off a step. But it is arguable whether it is due to her character or her mental illness at that time (bulimia and depression).
But I don't see the necessity to over exaggerate it as Diana wanted to harm Raine intentionally. It is a step not stair. It might be a big step or a small step. I tend to believe it is a small step, because considering there were so many guests and photographers in the event (Charles Spencer's wedding was a big social event at that time), no one and no news had came out to talk about this incident at all. So it is very likely so minor that people didn't even notice.

No doubt the incident had happened. But without any witness, any news, there is no need to exaggerate it. The good news is, Diana and Raine became good friends later and the friendship lasted for many years. There is no need to imagine a story like Raine was an angel, Diana was an evil, and the angel loved the evil so much, she missed the evil long after she died, and made a statement to beg for the justice for the evil to make her rip.
Trying to whitewash an event that Diana herself talked about on the Settelen Tapes is pointless. It was not a small step, it was not a big step. It was "a flight of stairs" in Diana's own words.
Quote:
"My stepmother and I ended up having this row. And I pushed her down the stairs. Which gave me enormous satisfaction. My father didn't speak to me for six months. I had to go back and say, you know... I love you daddy, etc, etc. I was so angry. I wanted to throttle that stepmother of mine because she brought such grief.
Diana tapes: My troubled childhood | Daily Mail Online

This is a royal forum not a fan site and this thread is about Diana's relationship with her Step-mother. This compulsion to whitewash Diana's behavior and attack anyone who does not agree with you and accuse them of "exaggerating" is totally ridiculous when they are quoting Diana herself. Just as an aside, there is more than one staircase at Althorp.

She was 28 years old when she pushed Raine down the stairs, her joy at what she had done and how sorry she was is reflected in the casual way she describes how she had to manipulate her father to placate him. There is no regret at what she had done four or five years before, just irritation that she had to 'kiss up to daddy' to get back into his good books.

I do not hate Diana, how can you "hate" someone you do not know. But what I do hate is the persistent sanctification of her. She was not an angel and she wasn't the devil, but IMO she was not a particularly nice person. As to Raines statement? It is a matter of public record in a court of law.

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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Are people still going over the rocky start of Diana's relationship with her stepmother, of which their relationship approved very well and long before Diana died?
Um, this thread is named:
Princess Diana's Relationship with her Stepmother, Raine Spencer

The Earl Spencer married Raine, Countess of Dartmouth in 1976. Diana pushed her down the stairs in 1989. Hardly the "rocky start of Diana's relationship with her stepmother".
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  #92  
Old 05-27-2015, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Trying to whitewash an event that Diana herself talked about on the Settelen Tapes is pointless. It was not a small step, it was not a big step. It was "a flight of stairs" in Diana's own words.
Diana tapes: My troubled childhood | Daily Mail Online

This is a royal forum not a fan site and this thread is about Diana's relationship with her Step-mother. This compulsion to whitewash Diana's behavior and attack anyone who does not agree with you and accuse them of "exaggerating" is totally ridiculous when they are quoting Diana herself. Just as an aside, there is more than one staircase at Althorp.

She was 28 years old when she pushed Raine down the stairs, her joy at what she had done and how sorry she was is reflected in the casual way she describes how she had to manipulate her father to placate him. There is no regret at what she had done four or five years before, just irritation that she had to 'kiss up to daddy' to get back into his good books.

I do not hate Diana, how can you "hate" someone you do not know. But what I do hate is the persistent sanctification of her. She was not an angel and she wasn't the devil, but IMO she was not a particularly nice person. As to Raines statement? It is a matter of public record in a court of law.
First my apologize for the misinformation about the situation. I didn't read the newspaper, I watched the video, I think I missed the "s" at the end. However, what she said was "the stairs" not "a flight of stairs". There are a lot of stairs in Althorp, might be the front door or inside the house. Might be two-step stairs or a flight of stairs.

Obviously that was very terrible behavior. However the "seriousness" of the incidence was really questionable. It happen in Charles Spencer's wedding day. There was no injure report, no news report, no picture, no other people even mentioned about the story, all we have just a few words. But with common sense, the incident didn't cause any turmoil, otherwise in such a big social event with so many guests and photographers, there would be too many witnesses available. So I think there is no necessity to imagine Diana had done some serious crime.

About she didn't show regret in the tape. First, definitely she should apologize which finally she did. And if she was talking about this event with Raine, and she didn't show any remorse, that was terrible. However she was talking about this to a third person many years later, and the incidence was not a serious one. From the context, she was talking about how bad Raine treated her mother, how Raine not allowed the children to see their father for 16 weeks, it would be really unnatural to expect her suddenly show great remorse when she talked about that incident.

The event happened because Raine even refused to say "hi" to Diana's mother Frances who was still the groom's mother, which should get full respect in her son's wedding. So don't portrait Raine as some angel who have a huge ability to forgive people and therefore can love anybody no matter how bad they are. Raine was just a normal person.

About Raine's statement in the court. There is no law requiring her to issue any statement. She took the initiative and was the only one in the court to do so. And there was other news which showed she cared about her step daughter a lot.

Finally, I state again, it was terrible for Diana to go physical. And it showed Diana could have huge tantrum. It is arguable whether it is due to her character or her state of mental illness (depression and bulimia).

But I don't think people should just use such a unclear event to define one person. If you notice, this single event was talked from the first post of this thread 9 years ago till today. There were so many lovely stories between Raine and Diana, but the lasting memory was this negative event.
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  #93  
Old 05-27-2015, 03:37 AM
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Normally the family gathers first before the guests arrive which would account for very few people being aware of Diana's temper tantrum and her assaulting her step-mother.

Her father did not speak to her for 6 months, clearly John Spencer consider Diana's actions serious enough to warrant not speaking to his daughter for 6 months.

If you read the entire section both John and Raine did not say hello to Frances. Note the hypocrisy in Diana's words.

Quote:
"My father and stepmother refused to even say hello to my mother. And it got me so angry, the behaviour of these grown-ups, that I ploughed in and screamed at my stepmother and my father. I said it was very bad manners.

"They were just indulging themselves and this was Charles's day and Victoria's. Do we have to live in the past every time mummy walks in the house?"

"My stepmother and I ended up having this row. And I pushed her down the stairs. Which gave me enormous satisfaction. My father didn't speak to me for six months. I had to go back and say, you know... I love you daddy, etc, etc. I was so angry. I wanted to throttle that stepmother of mine because she brought such grief.

"She kept saying to me, 'Oh, but Diana. you're so unhappy in your own marriage. You're just jealous of daddy's and my relationship.' And jealousy was not high on the agenda. It was behaviour I was after. She said, 'You don't know how much we've suffered because of Frances.' I said, 'Suffering, Raine? You don't know the word. I see suffering of such magnitude in my role that you would never even understand.'

"I really spat it out at her. I said, 'We've always hated you. You've ruined our family life. You've done a great job there, Raine. Great job. Made us really unhappy. I hope you're pleased about that.'"
Diana tapes: My troubled childhood | Daily Mail Online
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  #94  
Old 05-27-2015, 05:55 AM
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I think we better look at a bigger context. Here is what Queen Camilla missed out

Quote:
We used to behave like homing pigeons to him. Lovely house. Everything else -- she moved in. It's out.
She is a bully, she doesn't know how to treat individual.
They say, the expert say, the stroke was brought on by the tension between the four children and a step-mother, which is very true, I am sure.
She wouldn't let us see him for about 16 weeks in hospital.
However This is only a very casual, private non-formal dialogue between two persons, when obviously Diana was in a bitter mood, when her marriage was falling apart. It is not a formal statement. The tapes were never supposed to be disclosed to the public. Does it really surprise everyone that when she was in a bitter mood, she would use extreme words, she would be not fair enough? What is the point to put such scrutiny on EVERY WORD she said in that tape, and then being so judgmental.

About showing no remorse. Obviously when the tape was made, she was bitter towards her step-mother, no matter she was right or wrong. But there is no good judge for family affair. Within the context, how can one moment she show bitterness towards one person, and then suddenly show remorse to the same person. Diana had bulimia not schizophrenia.

I just restate it again. That is only a casual, private, non-formal dialogue, when Diana was in a bitter mood as her marriage was falling apart. In my opinion, it is irrational to put such scrutiny on every words she said in this tape. No one would wish their private, casual words to be examed one-by-one in such strict and judgmental manner.
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Old 05-31-2015, 10:50 PM
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Holy crap, I just discovered Raine had her own children. How have I never heard this before?
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Old 05-31-2015, 11:26 PM
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Holy crap, I just discovered Raine had her own children. How have I never heard this before?
She has 4 children from a previous marriage to Gerald Legge, 9th Earl of Dartmouth. They married in 1947 and divorced in 1976). Children are William, Rupert, Charlotte and Henry.

Another interesting fact is that a year after the death of Johnnie Spencer, she remarried again to Comte Jean-François Pineton de Chambrun and they subsequently were divorced in 1995.
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Old 05-31-2015, 11:36 PM
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She has 4 children from a previous marriage to Gerald Legge, 9th Earl of Dartmouth. They married in 1947 and divorced in 1976). Children are William, Rupert, Charlotte and Henry.



Another interesting fact is that a year after the death of Johnnie Spencer, she remarried again to Comte Jean-François Pineton de Chambrun and they subsequently were divorced in 1995.

So... both of Diana's sons and her granddaughter share names with her step-siblings?
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Old 05-31-2015, 11:54 PM
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So... both of Diana's sons and her granddaughter share names with her step-siblings?
It looks that way doesn't it.

I think too that among the aristocratic set, some names are just very, very British and very, very popular. I'm just glad that Rupert was put to the side. Its not a name I really care for much.
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Old 05-31-2015, 11:57 PM
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Raine was such a disaster, the whole divorce was such a terrible scar on the family especially for Diana and her younger brother. That any of the children ever spoke to her, after her truly taking over their father and the estate and selling so many of the treasures, is a miracle.
Of course, people love to blame the women, but it was john spencer who allowed his new wife so much power.
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Old 06-01-2015, 12:27 AM
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Althorp was definitely a bone of contention in the Spencer family. It wasn't only Raine that was selling off but actually the entire family. There were various differences of opinion on just what should be done. Charles Spencer, at the time was the manager of the estate for his father and Raine wanted to redecorate the rooms at Althorp in ways that the children did not agree with.

I did find an old article that was published around the time of the Battle at Althorp.

Princess Di vs. Wicked Stepmother : Royalty: Countess Spencer is selling off family heirlooms against her stepchildren's wishes, insiders say. The British are all atwitter over tiff. - latimes
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