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  #101  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:13 AM
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Does anyone know how to compare the lineage of British nobles and put them in relation?

I'M interested in Diana and Lady Catherine Brudenell-Bruce, daughter of the Earl of Cardigan - Lady Catherine sings as "Bo Bruce" and reminds me a lot of Diana. Is there any blodd-relation between those two Earl's daughters?
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  #102  
Old 10-08-2012, 05:09 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Prince Philip was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark, and Denmark has Europe's oldest monarchy. Therefore, Philip's original title was older than Diana's. I agree with you about Sir Winston Churchill. He was a great man.
yes.. Prince Philip himself was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark and is a member of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg which itself in turn descends from the older House of Oldenburg..

Diana saying those words may have meant Philip's tittle of Duke of Edinburgh which was granted to him by King George VI on 1947 while Diana's status on a "Lady" stretches back on 1783..

STILL, going by Diana's words, tracing both their lineages, the lineage of the Spencer family is way older than that of the House of Oldenburg where Prince Philip patrilineally descends from..

you see, the founder of the House of Oldenburg was Elimar I, Count of Oldenburg.. he is the direct ancestor of Prince Philip hence as well as of Prince Charles, William and Harry.. I believe it is widely known that the Kingdom of Denmark is the oldest monarchy in Europe, leading all the way back to Gorm the Old, BUT the House of Oldenburg does not descend from Gorm the Old.. the first Danish king from the House of Oldenburg was Christian I of Denmark who was elected to the vacant Danish throne upon the death of King Christopher of Denmark, Sweden and Norway in January 1448..

here is Prince Philip's descent from Elimar I, Count of Oldenburg..
  • Elimar I 1101–1108
  • Elimar II 1108–1143
  • Christian I the Quarrelsome 1143–1168
  • Maurice I 1168–1211
  • Otto I 1209–1251
  • Christian II 1211–1251
  • John I 1244–1272
  • Christian III 1272–1278
  • Otto II, Count of Oldenburg-Delmenhorst 1272–1301
  • John II 1278–1305
  • Christian IV 1302–1323
  • John III 1305–1345
  • John IV 1331–1356
  • Conrad I 1345–1368
  • Conrad II 1368–1386
  • Maurice II 1386–1420
  • Christian V 1368–1398
  • Dietrich, Count of Oldenburg 1398-1440
  • Christian I of Denmark 1426-1481
  • Frederick I of Denmark 1471-1533
  • Christian III of Denmark 1503-1559
  • John II, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg 1545–1622
  • Alexander, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg 1573–1627
  • August Philipp, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Beck 1612-1675
  • Frederick Louis, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck 1653-1728
  • Peter August, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck 1697-1775
  • Karl Anton August, Prince of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck 1727-1759
  • Friedrich Karl Ludwig, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck 1757-1816
  • Friedrich Wilhelm, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg 1785-1831
  • Christian IX of Denmark 1818-1906
  • George I of Greece 1845-1913
  • Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark 1882-1944
  • Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh 1921-Present
meanwhile, Lady Diana's lineage stretches far back than Prince Philip's.. you see the House of Oldenburg only stretches as far back as 1101 while Lady Diana's lineage can be traced back as far back as 920..

here is Lady Diana's descent from ancient Norman Nobility..
  • Raoul de Tancarville, 920-?, son of a "Tancrède de Norvège", who came to France with Duke Rollo
  • Gérard de Tancarville, ?-?
  • Gerard "Dapifer" de Tancarville, 1015-?
  • Amaury d'Abetot, Norman nobleman, tenants of the lords of Tancarville in Normandy, ca 1066
  • Robert Despenser, died after 1098, Royal Steward of King William II of England
  • Wlliam Despenser, of Elington, Lincolnshire, born ca 1090
  • Thurston le Despencer, born ca 1122
  • Hugh Despencer, of Rhyale, Rutland, 1152-1199
  • Thomas Despencer, of Elington, Lincolnshire, born 1169 (his fourth son was Hugh le Despenser I whose son Hugh was the ancestor of the medieval Despencer family).
  • Geoffrey le Despencer, of Defford, Worcestershire, 1185-1242
  • John le Despencer, 1235-1251
  • William Spencer, of Defford, Worcestershire, (fl.c.1330), he changed his surname from the original french Le Despenser to the english Spencer
  • John Spencer, of Defford, born 1310
  • Nicholas Spencer, of Defford, born ca 1340
  • Thomas Spencer, of Defford, born 1366
  • Henry Spencer, of Badby, Northamptonshire, 1392-1476
  • John Spencer, of Hodnell, 1420-?
  • William Spencer, of Rodburn, Warwickshire, ?-1485
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Snitterfield & Althorp , 1447-1522
  • Sir William Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1483-1532, married Susan, daughter of Sir Richard Knightley, of Fawsley, Northamptonshire
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1517-1586
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1550-1599 married Mary, daughter of Sir Robert Catlyn
  • Robert Spencer, 1st Baron Spencer of Wormleighton 1570-1627
  • William Spencer, 2nd Baron Spencer of Wormleighton 1591–1636
  • Henry Spencer, 1st Earl of Sunderland 1620–1643
  • Robert Spencer, 2nd Earl of Sunderland 1640–1702
  • Charles Spencer, 3rd Earl of Sunderland 1675–1722
  • The Honorable John Spencer 1708-1746
  • John Spencer, 1st Earl Spencer 1734-1783
  • George Spencer, 2nd Earl Spencer 1758-1834
  • Frederick Spencer, 4th Earl Spencer 1798-1857
  • Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer 1857-1922
  • Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer 1892-1975
  • John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer 1924-1992
  • Lady Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales 1961-1997
i remember reading a book where it was stated that Diana always reminds William that his Spencer forefathers can be traced back for a thousand years..
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  #103  
Old 10-08-2012, 06:28 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

Not to mention, the Queen is a direct descendant of not only British, English and Scottish ones (those who left descendants, at any rate), but also of native Princes of Wales, High Kings of Ireland, and Anglo-Saxon Monarchs.

Diana came from illustrious family, but to say that it's older, more aristocratic or noble than the reigning royal family of the United Kingdom is simply not true.
yes, the Queen is all you say she is.. but so to speak, as is Diana.. the Queen's patrilineal ancestry makes her a member of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha which was changed by King George V to the House of Windsor in 1917.. the Queen's nearest English born ancestor, patrilineally, was Princess Elizabeth Stuart, daughter of King James I, who married Frederick V, Elector Palatine, and who's daughter was Sophia of Hanover.. the Queen's matrilineal ancestors were mostly Scottish kings and nobles, as well as Dutch ancestry from her descent from the Dutch House of Bentick.. King George V has himself referred to before as "more German than the Kaiser" seeing how his nearest ancestors were all of German origins (Ansbach, Mecklenburg, Brunswick, Saxe-Coburg and Gotha), as well as his consort Princess Mary of Teck, who is patrilineally a member of the German House of Teck..

Diana's ancestry connects her with most crown heads of Europe.. she is a direct descendant of the French kings through her descent from King Henry IV of France as well as of the powerful Italian House of Medici.. through Henry IV, Diana can further trance her ancestry to the early Capetian kings all the way back to the Merovingian kings.. Diana is also related to almost every French noble houses.. Diana also descended from ancient noble and royal Gaelic families of Ireland from her mother's side. From her maternal great-great grandfather, Edmond Roche, 1st Baron Fermoy, Diana descends from both the O'Donovan family who ruled the Kingdom of Desmond until the 13th century and became semi-sovereign princes of Carbery from the line of Donal IV O'Donovan, Lord of Clancahill, the De Barry family, an ancient family of Cambro-Norman origins who descends from Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn, a Welsh prince and the O'Shaughnessy family, a family which descends from Guaire Aidne mac Colmáin, King of Connacht.. and most interesting enough is that Lady Diana is also a descendant of Arsakes Vologaeses V Dikaios Epiphanes Philhellen, Sacral King of Parthia, of the Parthian Royal House of Arsaces who ruled Persia (Iran), Mesopotamia and Babylon.. the Parthian kings in turn claimed descent from the earlier Achaemenid Dynasty.. if true, that relationship would make Lady Diana and her sons, Princes William and Harry, descendants of Cyrus the Great and establish a blood link with classical Greece..

the Queen, as i said earlier is from the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, who itself descends from the House of Wettin.. the founder of the House of Wettin was Dietrich I, Count of Wettin who died on 976.. as such, the House of Wettin may have probably been found somewhere during the early 900 to 920.. Here is Queen Elizabeth's descent from Dietrich I, Count of Wettin..
  • Dietrich I, Count of Wettin, d. 976
  • Dedi II, Count in the Hessegau, 946 - 1009
  • Dietrich II, Margrave of Lower Lusatia, 991 - 1034
  • Thimo I, Count of Wettin, d. 1099
  • Conrad, Margrave of Meissen, 1098–1157
  • Otto II, Margrave of Meissen, 1125–1190
  • Dietrich I, Margrave of Meissen, 1162–1221
  • Henry III, Margrave of Meissen, c. 1215 - 1288
  • Albert II, Margrave of Meissen, 1240–1314
  • Frederick I, Margrave of Meissen, 1257–1323
  • Frederick II, Margrave of Meissen, 1310–1349
  • Frederick III, Landgrave of Thuringia, 1332–1381
  • Frederick I, Elector of Saxony, 1370–1428
  • Frederick II, Elector of Saxony, 1412–1464
  • Ernest, Elector of Saxony, 1441–1486
  • John, Elector of Saxony, 1468–1532
  • John Frederick I, Elector of Saxony, 1503–1554
  • Johann Wilhelm, Duke of Saxe-Weimar, 1530–1573
  • John II, Duke of Saxe-Weimar, 1570–1605
  • Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Gotha, 1601–1675
  • John Ernest IV, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, 1658–1729
  • Francis Josias, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, 1697–1764
  • Ernest Frederick, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, 1724–1800
  • Francis, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, 1750–1806
  • Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, 1784–1844
  • Albert, Prince Consort, 1819–1861
  • Edward VII of the United Kingdom, 1841–1910
  • George V of the United Kingdom, 1865–1936
  • George VI of the United Kingdom, 1895–1952
  • Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, 1926 -
Diana's family ancestry meanwhile can be traced back as early as 920, as shown here..
  • Raoul de Tancarville, 920-?, son of a "Tancrède de Norvège", who came to France with Duke Rollo
  • Gérard de Tancarville, ?-?
  • Gerard "Dapifer" de Tancarville, 1015-?
  • Amaury d'Abetot, Norman nobleman, tenants of the lords of Tancarville in Normandy, ca 1066
  • Robert Despenser, died after 1098, Royal Steward of King William II of England
  • Wlliam Despenser, of Elington, Lincolnshire, born ca 1090
  • Thurston le Despencer, born ca 1122
  • Hugh Despencer, of Rhyale, Rutland, 1152-1199
  • Thomas Despencer, of Elington, Lincolnshire, born 1169 (his fourth son was Hugh le Despenser I whose son Hugh was the ancestor of the medieval Despencer family).
  • Geoffrey le Despencer, of Defford, Worcestershire, 1185-1242
  • John le Despencer, 1235-1251
  • William Spencer, of Defford, Worcestershire, (fl.c.1330), he changed his surname from the original french Le Despenser to the english Spencer
  • John Spencer, of Defford, born 1310
  • Nicholas Spencer, of Defford, born ca 1340
  • Thomas Spencer, of Defford, born 1366
  • Henry Spencer, of Badby, Northamptonshire, 1392-1476
  • John Spencer, of Hodnell, 1420-?
  • William Spencer, of Rodburn, Warwickshire, ?-1485
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Snitterfield & Althorp , 1447-1522
  • Sir William Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1483-1532, married Susan, daughter of Sir Richard Knightley, of Fawsley, Northamptonshire
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1517-1586
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1550-1599 married Mary, daughter of Sir Robert Catlyn
  • Robert Spencer, 1st Baron Spencer of Wormleighton 1570-1627
  • William Spencer, 2nd Baron Spencer of Wormleighton 1591–1636
  • Henry Spencer, 1st Earl of Sunderland 1620–1643
  • Robert Spencer, 2nd Earl of Sunderland 1640–1702
  • Charles Spencer, 3rd Earl of Sunderland 1675–1722
  • The Honorable John Spencer 1708-1746
  • John Spencer, 1st Earl Spencer 1734-1783
  • George Spencer, 2nd Earl Spencer 1758-1834
  • Frederick Spencer, 4th Earl Spencer 1798-1857
  • Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer 1857-1922
  • Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer 1892-1975
  • John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer 1924-1992
  • Lady Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales 1961-1997
the House of Wettin is probably as old as the Spencer family itself.. as for the Spencer family being more aristocratic, it all goes down to one's opinion i think.. seeing how the Queen descends primarily from German royals with a hint of Danish, Scottish and Dutch, while Diana's ancestry is primarily English, descending from most if not all of "true" British kings and nobles as well as of French, Italian, Spanish and even some German royal/noble blood flowing in her veins..

to say the least, Diana lacks the German royal connection the Queen has which makes her related to most royal houses (Wettin, Hanover, Hohenzollern, Oldenburg, Mecklenburg, Ascania, Zahringen, Saxe-Coburg, Saxe-Meiningen, Saxe-Weimar, Saxe-Altenburg, etc.) on the other hand, Diana and the Spencer family has blood connection with most of French and Italian, and other Catholic royal houses which the Queen lacks (Merovingian, Capetian, Bourbon, Medici, Sforza, Habsburg, Wittelsbach, Savoy, Orsini, Burgundy (Castile), Alba, etc.).. this is because, after the Glorious Revolution, no British monarch had married into any Catholic Royal family, confining their descent to German royal houses..
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  #104  
Old 10-08-2012, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
Eh, some aristos used to sneer at the Spencers as "sheep farmers!"

Just goes to show, no matter how high your position, you can always find a bigger snob to look down on you.
I believe that comment came from the Earl of Arundel.. the Earls of Arundel as well as the House of Howard of the Dukes of Norfolk and considered to be the premier noble family since they were titled since the 12th century..

This humble origins of the Spencers once caused a heated exchange of words between wealthy yet then-upstart Spencers with the more established Howards who had been the Earls of Arundel since the 12th century. During a warm debate in the House of Peers, Lord Spencer was speaking something in the house that their great ancestors did, when suddenly the Earl of Arundel cuts him off and then said "My Lord, when these things you speak of were doing, your ancestors were keeping sheep". Lord Spencer then instantly replied, "When my ancestors as you say were keeping sheep, your ancestors were plotting treason.".. the Earl of Arundel was later confined in the tower for his actions..

as for antiquity of nobility, the Howards were indeed older than the Spencers, but as for family origins, the Spencers and Howards are not very much far apart.. as for national contribution, many Howards were beheaded for treason while the Spencers include the greatest general in British History, a beatified priest, and the greatest war-time leader in their ranks..

in my opinion, the Spencers, Howards, Percys, Seymours, Nevilles, and Cecils are the greatest aristocratic dynasties in Britain..
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  #105  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:04 AM
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Does anyone know how to compare the lineage of British nobles and put them in relation?

I'M interested in Diana and Lady Catherine Brudenell-Bruce, daughter of the Earl of Cardigan - Lady Catherine sings as "Bo Bruce" and reminds me a lot of Diana. Is there any blodd-relation between those two Earl's daughters?


Yes.
Diana, Camilla and Sarah Ferguson are descendants of the Earl of Cardigan. Diana & Sarah on multiple sides. (About a year ago, I created family trees for multiple branches for Camilla, Diana, Charles and Sarah to see how they are related. If I had seen your post earlier would have replied.)

Through this line Camilla, Sarah and Diana are 7th cousins. Camilla & Diana are also 8th cousins. Sarah & Diana are also 4th cousins. Sarah and Camilla are also 5th cousin once removed.

Sarah & Camilla are related to Angus Oglivy (Princess Alexandra's husband). Camilla & Angus are 4th cousins once removed. I think quite a lot of the nobility of England are descendents of Francis Brudenell. I didn't save the information as I was only interested in the Windsor clan.

Diana's Brudenell line ended in the 1800's; Camilla in the 1700's.

You can use peerage & work your way back but you need to know who was married to whom then create a spread sheet or a family tree. Camilla's complete ancestry is online so it was easier as I knew which person I was looking for in each generation.

Diana's Brudnell ancestry ended with:
Anne Brudenell b. 29 Jun 1809, d. 2 Apr 1877 m. George Charles Bingham, 3rd Earl of Lucan

so you can count back to see how they fall in line as cousins.
Lady Catherine Brudenell-Bruce
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  #106  
Old 10-14-2012, 10:06 AM
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I disagree with you and all the posters who said that Diana is more royal than the Queen.

Just because you may be able to trace Diana's ancestors farther back does not mean they are royal. Infact by your own example Diana has no royal ancestors vs the Queen. In the series, Queen & Country several of the villager can trace their ancestry to the founding of the village. Does this make them royal? NO!!!

Diana's ancestry connects her with most crown heads of Europe.
You did not prove this you only listed names and not a family tree. The Queen does and there is proof of that.

And most importantly you did not include her mother's side.
  • Dietrich I, Count of Wettin, d. 976
  • Dedi II, Count in the Hessegau, 946 - 1009
  • Dietrich II, Margrave of Lower Lusatia, 991 - 1034
  • Thimo I, Count of Wettin, d. 1099
  • Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Gotha, 1601–1675
  • John Ernest IV, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, 1658–1729
  • Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, 1784–1844
  • Albert, Prince Consort, 1819–1861
  • Edward VII of the United Kingdom, 1841–1910
  • George V of the United Kingdom, 1865–1936
  • George VI of the United Kingdom, 1895–1952
  • Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, 1926 -
Diana's family ancestry meanwhile can be traced back as early as 920, as shown here..

You did not prove this. I'll take your word that DeSpencer became Spencer but the 1st Despencer is Robert. Where are the previous DeSpencers? Who are the 1st 4? The 1st title is Robert Spencer 1570 vs the Queens in the 10th century.

  • Raoul de Tancarville, 920-?, son of a "Tancrède de Norvège", who came to France with Duke Rollo
  • Gérard de Tancarville, ?-?
  • Gerard "Dapifer" de Tancarville, 1015-?
  • Amaury d'Abetot, Norman nobleman, tenants of the lords of Tancarville in Normandy, ca 1066
  • Robert Despenser, died after 1098, Royal Steward of King William II of England
  • Robert Spencer, 1st Baron Spencer of Wormleighton 1570-1627
  • William Spencer, 2nd Baron Spencer of Wormleighton 1591–1636
  • Henry Spencer, 1st Earl of Sunderland 1620–1643
  • John Spencer, 1st Earl Spencer 1734-1783
  • John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer 1924-1992
  • Lady Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales 1961-1997
seeing how the Queen descends primarily from German royals with a hint of Danish, Scottish and Dutch.

The Queen's Mother is Scottish & English. How is the Queen primarily German.


By your example, Camilla is more royal than Diana.

Camilla descends from the King of Scotland on several branches of her family on the right side of the mattress and her ancestry can also be traced to the 10th century.

She descends from Robert III daughter, Mary who married William Edmonstone in 1425.

She and the Queen Mother descend from Sir John Lyon who married Robert II daughter, Joanna in the 1376.

Camilla also descends from the of Glen Lyon family.

Thanks to you, I was reminded that John Lyon was married to a royal princess.

Camilla descends from Robert the Bruce on multiple lines of her family.

(I also read that she and Diana's Fermoy side descend from King James on the right side of the mattress. I don't know which one, tried to relocate but computer was not cooperating.)
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  #107  
Old 10-14-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
I disagree with you and all the posters who said that Diana is more royal than the Queen.


"Just because you may be able to trace Diana's ancestors farther back does not mean they are royal. Infact by your own example Diana has no royal ancestors vs the Queen. In the series, Queen & Country several of the villager can trace their ancestry to the founding of the village. Does this make them royal? NO!!!"

-- what i posted is the antiquity of their family.. someone once pointed out Diana's heated exchange of words with Prince Philip when he threatened that they will take her title away where Diana replied that her title if older than his.. someone said that since Prince Philip was born a prince of Greece and Denmark from the House of Oldenburg, his family is older than her's.. i just pointed out that House of Oldenburg was founded in 1101 while the Spencers can trace their ancestral line back to 920.. i also just pointed out that the House of Wettin is just as old as the Spencer family.. never did in that post i said that the Spencers were more aristocratic than them.. Also i think its nice to mention that antiquity of nobility in the legitimate male line, not royal/noble quarterings, was the main criterion of rank in the Ancien Régime.

"And most importantly you did not include her mother's side."
--- i never denied the fact that the Bowes-Lyons are also quite aristocratic.. the Bowes-Lyons descended from John Lyon, Lord of Glamis who married Princess Johanna, daughter of Robert II of Scotland and Elizabeth Mure.. but this does not really say much as Diana herself also descends from Robert II of Scotland and Elizabeth Mure through Diana's descent from Mary, Queen of Scots..

now, if the point your trying to put through is because of the sanctity of marriage, Diana's ancestor Charles I Louis, Elector Palatine was also married to Luise von Degenfeld. Charles I Louis was the son of Frederick V, Elector Palatine; the "Winter King", and Princess Elizabeth of Scotland, daughter of James I of England and granddaughter of Mary, Queen of Scots.. this points to Diana's legitimate descent from royal houses.. One of Charles I Louis' children from his first marriage was Elizabeth Charlotte, Princess Palatine who married Philippe I, Duke of Orléans.. Elizabeth Charlotte's son Philippe II, Duke of Orléans is the ancestor of the current House of Orleans which include Louis Philippe I, King of the French. Meanwhile, through her daughter, Élisabeth Charlotte d'Orléans, who married Leopold, Duke of Lorraine, they are the parents of Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor, husband of Empress Maria Theresa of Austria and thus the ancestor of the current House of Habsburg-Lorraine, which includes Marie Antoinette, Queen of France.. In conclusion, Diana is related to practically related to most crown heads of Europe..

"You did not prove this. I'll take your word that DeSpencer became Spencer but the 1st Despencer is Robert. Where are the previous DeSpencers? Who are the 1st 4? The 1st title is Robert Spencer 1570 vs the Queens in the 8th century."
---

  • Raoul de Tancarville
  • Gérard de Tancarville
  • Gerard "Dapifer" de Tancarville
  • Amaury d'Abetot
You see, the Tancarville family held the title of Héréditaire le titre de Chambellan de Normandie or Hereditary title of Chamberlain of Normandy. Raoul de Tancarville came to England along Robert "The Magnificent", Duke of Normandy. Amaury d'Abetot was probably the father of Urse d'Abetot, Sheriff of Worcestershire and royal official under Kings William I, William II and Henry I. His brother was Robert Despenser, who's last name of Despenser derives from his office, that of dispenser, in the royal household.. Amaury d'Abetot's great great grandson, Thomas Despencer was the father of Hugh le Despenser I, whose son was Hugh le Despencer, 1st Baron le Despencer.. His other son, Geoffrey le Despencer, is to whom the current lines of the Spencers came from.. I think this was even mentioned in the 2001 BBC radio series This Sceptred Isle: Dynasties.. You see, the true family name was Tancerville, which held a hereditary title since 920, future descendants adopted the surname Despencer, and eventually Spencer..

"The Queen's Mother is Scottish & English. How is the Queen primarily German."
--- I said that because the most, if not Queen's patrilineal ancestors were of German origin.. in my defense, i never said that the Queen is German, i only said, most of the royal blood that flows in her veins are from German royals..

"By your example, Camilla is more royal than Diana.

Camilla descends from the King of Scotland on several branches of her family on the right side of the mattress and her ancestry can also be traced to the 8th century.

She descends from Robert III daughter, Mary who married William Edmonstone in 1425.

She and the Queen Mother descend from Sir John Lyon who married Robert II daughter, Joanna in the 1376.

Camilla also descends from the of Glen Lyon family.

Thanks to you, I was reminded that John Lyon was married to a royal princess.

Camilla descends from Robert the Bruce on multiple lines of her family.
"

--- that is all fine and dandy.. Camilla may have had royal blood in her, but so is most people in the UK via illegitimate line.. Camilla's connection with Charles II also gives her an impressive bloodline but saying she has more royal blood in her than Diana would be absurd..

As proven, Diana is related to practically related to every crown head of Europe through both legitimate and illegitimate lines.. Patrilineally, as a Spencer, she descends from titled nobility since 920, making her a member of Europe's Ancient Nobility or in German, "Uradel" families.. from her Hamilton ancestors, she is a legitimate descendant of King James II of Scotland and his Queen consort Mary of Guelders, who's daughter Mary Stewart, Princess of Scotland married James Hamilton, 1st Lord Hamilton.. their son, James Hamilton, Duke of Châtellerault was the direct ancestor of the Dukes of Abercorn.. as also discussed, Diana is a legitimate descendant of the Electors Palatine which makes her related to the Houses of Orleans and Habsburg-Lorraine.. not to mention countless other connections to various royal families.. More so, as a direct descendant of John Churchill, who was the sovereign Prince of Mindelheim, the Spencers would have enjoyed legitimate royal status if the Imperial Diet allowed their imperial titles to be passed down in the female line..

As i said earlier, i never said that Diana has more royal blood in her than the queen.. I said it all goes down to preference and personal opinion.. If you think that the Queen who descends from actual rulers since the 10th century and is related to the Kings of England, Scotland, Prussia, Denmark, Saxony, Hanover, Wurttemberg, Grand Dukes of Mecklenburg, Dukes of Ernestine Duchies, etc. is more royal, then its all good.. or if you think an aristocratic Lady that came from a hereditary titled family since the 10th century and is related to Holy Roman Emperors, Austrian Emperors, Kings of England, Scotland, France, Spain, Bavaria, Ancient Gaelic Kingdoms, Electors of the Palatinate, Grand Dukes of Tuscany, Dukes of Milan, etc has more blue blood in her, then its okay too..

thanks for reading my post.. it was a great honor..
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  #108  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:09 PM
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I made correction to my previous post. It should have stated 10th century for Camilla. Camilla royal line from Scotland (posted above) are not illegimate.

The line she shares with some of Diana's ancestor are the illegimate side. (See Brudenell post) are through Charles II.

Her Edmonstone ancestors married into the Scottish royal family. Her Keppel side is through Anne Lennox.
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  #109  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:38 PM
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true enough.. and its a very interesting note.. but as posted earlier, Diana also has legitimate descent from Scottish Kings as well from her descent from James Hamilton, 1st Earl of Arran, son of Mary Stewart, Princess of Scotland and grandson of James II of Scotland. From Mary of Guelders, Diana is a legitimate descendant of the Dukes of Burgundy and Dukes of Cleves..

Camilla's descent from the Charles II came from the Earls of Albemarle, who in turn got their royal descent from Lady Anne Lennox, later Countess of Albemarle, daughter of Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond, illegitimate son of Charles II of England..

Diana's legitimate royal descent from the House of Wittlelsbach also came from the line of the Dukes of Richmond, in her cases due to the marriage of Lord George Lennox to Lady Louisa Kerr, who herself is a legitimate direct descentant of Frederick V, Elector Palatine and Princess Elizabeth Stuart, parents of Sophia of Hanover.. their son was Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond, who became Duke of Richmond on 29 December 1806, after the death of his uncle, Charles Lennox, 3rd Duke of Richmond..
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  #110  
Old 10-16-2012, 07:29 PM
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I was able to trace her Hamilton line so I agree with you.

Do you have anymore information on which child of Elizabeth Stuart connects to Louisa Kerr?

I read Diana's mother also descends from one of the King James of Scotland through legitimate birth, but wasn't able to find a connection. Do you know how?

Thanks
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  #111  
Old 10-18-2012, 12:31 AM
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thanks..

here is the line of lady Diana's legitimate descent from Princess Elizabeth Stuart
  • Princess Elizabeth Stuart
  • Charles I Louis, Elector Palatine
  • Karoline von der Pfalz, Duchess of Schomberg
  • Lady Federica Schomberg
  • Lady Caroline D'arcy
  • Lady Louisa Kerr
  • Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond
  • Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond
  • Lady Cecilia Catherine Gordon-Lennox, Countess of Lucan
  • Lady Rosalind Bingham, Duchess of Abercorn
  • Lady Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer
  • John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer
  • Lady Diana, Princess of Wales
i tried to find a connection of descent of Baron Fermoy to King James I of Scotland.. but its really hard to find..

on the other hand, i found a connection to Diana with King Edward I of England and his wife Eleonor of Castile through their daughter, Elizabeth Plantagenet, Countess of Hereford.. here is the line..
  • Edward I of England
  • Elizabeth Plantagenet, Countess of Hereford
  • William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton
  • Humphrey de Bohun, 7th Earl of Hereford
  • Lady Eleanor de Bohun
  • James Butler, 2nd Earl of Ormond
  • Eleanor Butler, Countess of Desmond
  • James FitzGerald, 6th Earl of Desmond
  • Jane FitzGerald, Countess of Kildare
  • Cormac na Haoine, 10th Prince of Carbery
  • Lady Ellen MacCarthy Reagh
  • William de Barry
  • Helena de Barry
  • Donal III O'Donovan,
  • Donal IV O'Donovan
  • Cornelius O'Donovan
  • Honoria O'Donovan (great grandmother of Edmond Roche, 1st Baron Fermoy)
  • Edward Roche
  • Edmond Roche, 1st Baron Fermoy
  • James Roche, 3rd Baron Fermoy
  • Maurice Roche, 4th Baron Fermoy
  • Frances Roche
  • Diana, Princess of Wales
the only problem is the legitimacy of Lady Ellen MacCarthy Reagh.. in some sources says illegitimate, other sources says she's legitimate.. nevertheless, Direct descendant of Edward I of England and Eleonor of Castile..

i'll try to find other connection with Scottish royal with that of the Fermoy families..
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  #112  
Old 10-18-2012, 01:02 AM
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I like reading this thread because of course all of the people mentioned are obviously the ancestors of the Duke of Cambridge as well and that's where my interest is.
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  #113  
Old 10-18-2012, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post

Diana's legitimate royal descent from the House of Wittlelsbach also came from the line of the Dukes of Richmond, in her cases due to the marriage of Lord George Lennox to Lady Louisa Kerr, who herself is a legitimate direct descentant of Frederick V, Elector Palatine and Princess Elizabeth Stuart, parents of Sophia of Hanover.. their son was Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond, who became Duke of Richmond on 29 December 1806, after the death of his uncle, Charles Lennox, 3rd Duke of Richmond..

The legitimacy of Karoline von der Pfalz (of Wittelsbach) ist disputed, as she derives from Charles I. Louis of the Palatinate's second marriage, which was morgantic and she was born before his first wife had died, the divorce having ben highly disputed at that time. While Charles is descended from the Electress Sophia, who was herself a Wittelsbach-princess of the Palatinate.
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:22 AM
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Thanks

Could her line to James of Scotland be through her mother's maternal line? I was trying that route.
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  #115  
Old 10-18-2012, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
The legitimacy of Karoline von der Pfalz (of Wittelsbach) ist disputed, as she derives from Charles I. Louis of the Palatinate's second marriage, which was morgantic and she was born before his first wife had died, the divorce having ben highly disputed at that time. While Charles is descended from the Electress Sophia, who was herself a Wittelsbach-princess of the Palatinate.
true enough.. but, from i understand, a morganatic marriage is still for all intents and purposes legitimate.. also, despite the big fuss and scandal of Charles I Louis' divorce with his first wife, Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel, his children with Marie Louise were acknowledged by the Palatinate and were given titles of Count and Countess of the Palatinate.. also, England was not a solid practitioner of the idea of Morganatic marriage..
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  #116  
Old 10-18-2012, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
Thanks

Could her line to James of Scotland be through her mother's maternal line? I was trying that route.
that would very unlikely since the most of Frances' maternal side were commoners..

another possible line would be in one of the Baron Fermoy's maternal line.. but i'll try my best to trace it out..
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:44 AM
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Here's her mother's side but it's to Robert III not through a James. I did see some interesting names that might lead to other branches on her mother's side but it's getting a bit late so maybe I'll try another day.

Robert III
Lady Mary Stewart
Elizabeth Douglas
James Forbes 2nd Lord Forbes
Duncan Forbes of Corsindae
William Forbes of Corsindae
Duncan Forbes of Monymusk
William Forbes of Monymusk
Sir William Forbes of Monymusk, 1st Bt
Sir William Forbes of Monymusk, 2nd Bt.
Sir John Forbes of Monymusk, 3rd Bt
John Forbes 4th of Boyndlie
George Forbes, 4th of Boyndlie
John Forbes, 5th of Boyndlie
Theodore Forbes
Katherine Scott Forbes
Jane Crombie
Ruth Littlejohn
Ruth Sylvia Gill
Frances Ruth Burke Roche
Diana
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  #118  
Old 10-18-2012, 03:50 AM
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wow.. thanks.. very interesting indeed.. another legitimate royal descent..
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  #119  
Old 10-18-2012, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
true enough.. but, from i understand, a morganatic marriage is still for all intents and purposes legitimate.. also, despite the big fuss and scandal of Charles I Louis' divorce with his first wife, Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel, his children with Marie Louise were acknowledged by the Palatinate and were given titles of Count and Countess of the Palatinate.. also, England was not a solid practitioner of the idea of Morganatic marriage..
It's not that easy. Karoline of the Palatinate, in case she was recognised in the UK as legitimate, would have been higher up the line of sucession than her aunt Electress Sophie, because her father was Sophie's elder brother. As she had a son at the time of the decision on the Hanoveran succession and was married to a then British duke, I guess she was not deemed legitimate enough to inherit her grandmother Elizabeth Stuart's right to the British thrones. While her aunt Sophia was.
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  #120  
Old 10-18-2012, 11:08 AM
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She descends from both of Mary Stewart's children.

Robert III
Lady Mary Stewart
William Douglas, 2nd Earl of Angus
George Douglas, 4th Earl of Angus
Archibald Douglas, 5th Earl of Angus
Sir William Douglas
Sir Archibald Douglas
William Douglas, 9th Earl of Angus
Margaret Douglas married William Forbes of Monymusk
Sir William Forbes of Monymusk, 1st Bt
Sir William Forbes of Monymusk, 2nd Bt.
Sir John Forbes of Monymusk, 3rd Bt
John Forbes 4th of Boyndlie
George Forbes, 4th of Boyndlie
John Forbes, 5th of Boyndlie
Theodore Forbes
Katherine Scott Forbes
Jane Crombie
Ruth Littlejohn
Ruth Sylvia Gill
Frances Ruth Burke Roche
Diana
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