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  #81  
Old 05-22-2012, 03:30 PM
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Some royal lineage? The Spencers descend directly from practically all most important queens and kings from Europe (and even outside of it), who has "some" royal lineage are the Saxe Coburgh Gotha. The nobility of a family is measured as older a noble family is, that's fact, I've learned it 'cause I'm an amateur genealogist, eh,eh. But it's only a curiosity, and it's a just interesting, but no more than that, I don't think those people are better than you or me, or anyone just because who their ancestors were. And even the British aristocracy is leveling down, it was no surprise that Kate Middleton descends from a jailbird, a dustman, and a road sweeper. I think that's amazing, that's democracy, we are all just human beings!Really, the Spencers were sheep farmers who became very rich, there was a time when they were richer than the Royal Family, but they wanted nobility, so what they did? They married their sons and daughters into the descendants of queen and kings, their women were noble, and their blood was "nobler" in every generation. That's the way things worked, and they were ambitious... That's it! Indeed, I think that explains a lot of things, Diana looked down to the Windsors, so she dared to defy them, so Earl Charles Spencer in his eulogy, it was extremely arrogant, you know, the Queen was there and the planetary audience... I think for the Spencers the Windsors where no more than corny germen. Of course I think it is snobbish, and I do think arrogance and Spencers could be synonyms, or being, I haven't a total sympathy for them...
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  #82  
Old 05-22-2012, 08:49 PM
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Believe me, the women you mentioned are of no interest to me. The Spencers are an illustrious family, no doubt about that. We'd learn about various families through studying British history in school--but I don't remember hearing about the Spencers until Diana came along.

I couldn't understand Diana's comment about "my title is older than yours, Philip," because Diana didn't have a title. Her style of "Lady" was a courtesy title that referred to her father's title of Earl Spencer, not one that she personally owned.


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And when Prince Philip and the Queen have threatened Diana to taking her the tittle , she answered "My tittle is older than yours!"
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  #83  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:12 PM
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well, the spencer are a noble family from some centurys along, william when become king will be the firt in line with charles II, for example. I have the line complete of diana and in some point diana and charles are cousins, I don't know the nivel.
But it's normal that the name spencer was unknow until diana married charles, but in the high class of england was very know.

surely it can reach higher than the spencer, all the glory will be the day that William becomes king. after all, he is half spencer
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Today the world has embraced new royal Princesses in the form of Mary of Denmark and Maxima of the Netherlands. But it's questionable whether even these hugely popular, increasingly glamorous future Queens will ever capture the world's imagination in the same way as Diana.
As Mario acknowledges: "She really was a true Princess".
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  #84  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Believe me, the women you mentioned are of no interest to me. The Spencers are an illustrious family, no doubt about that. We'd learn about various families through studying British history in school--but I don't remember hearing about the Spencers until Diana came along.

I couldn't understand Diana's comment about "my title is older than yours, Philip," because Diana didn't have a title. Her style of "Lady" was a courtesy title that referred to her father's title of Earl Spencer, not one that she personally owned.
Oh, sorry, I never wanted to mean you have any interest for shallow celebrities, how could I know that, besides, it seems to me people interested in royalty have in general a better taste and a higher culture than those interested in mainstream culture. As I'm a foreigner, I'm easily and frequently misunderstood! I only have mentioned that to ilustrate how an illustrious family tree is not a garantee of being a planetary celebrity. Indeed, "celebrity" is considered something very vulgar for the high aristocracy. I think for sure Diana was referring to the fact her family's nobility is older than that of the Windsors, and she had more Kings and Queens of England as her direct ancestors than the current reigning house. She had said "tittle" as her family in general. I remember I have read sometime that before Diana's Wedding, her father said her: "Always remember you are a Spencer!" An excerpt about that:.."But the British Royal Wedding hasn’t just exposed the British public’s fascination of where the Middleton’s come from – they care about where everyone comes from. As this rather amazing article in New York Magazine noted: the current House of Windsor are seen by some members of the landed British aristocracy as nothing more then “middle-class Hanoverians.” The Royal Family as you may or may not know only became the House of Windsor in 1910, changing their name (how common!) from the German sounding House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Queen Victoria’s husband, Prince Albert, was Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha). And Diana, upon being threated by Prince Phillip: "If you don't behave, my girl, we'll take your title away." Diana is alleged to have replied: "My title is a lot older than yours, Philip." Diana was only too happy to remind Philip that while he may be married to the Queen, the Spencer family has been titled since the 1500’s. Snap."-
I remember reading that Diana's great-great-great-grandmother Sarah Churchill, Duchess of Marlborough (1660-1744) had left court coming back to Blenheim Palace when the first King of german dinasty was crowned because, in her words "the King is too German!" I think the most remarkable Spencer until now is Sir Winston Spencer Churchill, whose contributions for British nation and for world politics in general are inestimable. Of couse the Tudor and Stuart kings where of great importance for England, but they were not Spencer, tough direct ancestor of the nowadays Spencers.
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  #85  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:16 PM
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Prince Philip was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark, and Denmark has Europe's oldest monarchy. Therefore, Philip's original title was older than Diana's. I agree with you about Sir Winston Churchill. He was a great man.
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  #86  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:22 PM
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Not to mention, the Queen is a direct descendant of not only British, English and Scottish ones (those who left descendants, at any rate), but also of native Princes of Wales, High Kings of Ireland, and Anglo-Saxon Monarchs.

Diana came from illustrious family, but to say that it's older, more aristocratic or noble than the reigning royal family of the United Kingdom is simply not true.
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  #87  
Old 05-24-2012, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mariana Pazza View Post
The Royal Family as you may or may not know only became the House of Windsor in 1910.
It was actually 1917.
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  #88  
Old 05-25-2012, 09:10 AM
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Is Diana still remembered in the UK ? I don't hear abour her at all here now.
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  #89  
Old 05-26-2012, 03:40 PM
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Yes, she is still very much remembered. People still put pictures and flowers at Kensington Palace at the anniversary of her death, although not so many. Personally, I don't think that Diana will be forgotten. She'll be in the history books as Charles' first wife and as William's mother as well being remembered for a person who was an important public figure and celebrity of the late 20th century. I think that her tragic death will also be a way of her being remembered. She was a beautiful woman who had a tragic life and death; those kinds of ladies, even when they're not princesses, are remembered. I'm 50 years old. If I live another 30 or 35 years, I'll be among the last who'll remember Diana as she first appeared on the scene as a very pretty, kind girl who loved children and gave people joy when she appeared in hospitals and nursing homes and schools and other places. Diana isn't in the newspapers or magazines much now because she's been gone for almost 15 years; there's no news of her. No new outfits or hairstyles, no boyfriends or adventures, no public stands on various matters. We have memories and will have whatever comes to light in years to come when archives become available, including the official diary that she kept. I likely won't live to see all the information that's there come out, but her youngest fans might see some of it.
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  #90  
Old 05-27-2012, 09:56 AM
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Diana is on the cover of the current issue of Macleans magazine, but it's not a flattering article.

The writer claims she did massive damage to William by involving him in her battles with Charles, her jealousy of his nanny, her hostility to Tiggy, etc.

It really doesn't say anything positive about Diana at all.

Has anyone else read it?
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  #91  
Old 05-27-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Yes, she is still very much remembered....
That is nice. I read or heard from someone that the Harrods departmentstore's Diana memorial was removed or something. So, I was not so sure if people cared about Diana any more. I guess that, because there is a memorial in Kensington Garden in London, she will be remembered whenever people visit the place, won't she ? I feel very sorry for this princess because, apart from having had two lovely sons, she didn't seem to have any happiness at all in her life time. So, at least, I only hope that she won't be forgotten by the people of the United Kingdom. I was amazed when I saw a picture of her holding the hands of a man with HIV & Aids. She was truly a kind and brave person, I thought then.
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  #92  
Old 05-27-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
Diana is on the cover of the current issue of Macleans magazine, but it's not a flattering article.

The writer claims she did massive damage to William by involving him in her battles with Charles, her jealousy of his nanny, her hostility to Tiggy, etc.

It really doesn't say anything positive about Diana at all.

Has anyone else read it?
That is so sad but maybe these things might have had happened then, I don't know. She was a human being and she had such a difficult life and she might have been a naive person when she was a lot younger that she got hurt so much. I don't know. Whatever she might have said to her sons about their father, they seem to have grown sort of soundly and healthily and doing their charitable works and so or for people of the world regardless of their nationalities and social classes. So, Diana's good will is still living in her children, I think, and I truly hope that her good examples will be passed onto their children, too, in the future and she will be remembered as a good grandmother by them.
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  #93  
Old 05-27-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by corazon View Post
well, the spencer are a noble family from some centurys along, william when become king will be the firt in line with charles II, for example. I have the line complete of diana and in some point diana and charles are cousins, I don't know the nivel.
But it's normal that the name spencer was unknow until diana married charles, but in the high class of england was very know.

surely it can reach higher than the spencer, all the glory will be the day that William becomes king. after all, he is half spencer
I read somewhere I cannot remember but the Spencers were the richest pig farmers in England. They must have been very rich and successful then because they were enobled in the end. I also read that Diana was descended from Charles II through his one of his mistresses' son. Is this true ? If so, she was royal by blood, too ?

Maybe some well informed person here will be able to tell me more about Diana's ancestors. I know she was related to Georgiana the 5th Duchess of Devonshire whose life turned out to be similar to her own.

Talking about Prince William being half Spencer, I wonder if he will call himself Spencer-Windsor or Spencer-Mountbatten or Mountbatten-Windsor ?
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  #94  
Old 05-27-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mariaantoniapia View Post
I read somewhere I cannot remember but the Spencers were the richest pig farmers in England. They must have been very rich and successful then because they were enobled in the end. I also read that Diana was descended from Charles II through his one of his mistresses' son. Is this true ? If so, she was royal by blood, too ?
Diana was five times descended from the House of Stuart through five of Charles II's illegitimate children - James, 1st Duke of Monmouth, Henry FitzRoyal, 1st Duke of Grafton, Charles Beauclerk, 1st Duke of St. Albans, Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond, and Henrietta FitzJames, Countess of Newcastle.

That is not, however, something exceptional; most of English aristocracy and nobility are descended from one of Charles II's many illegitimate sons, including Diana, Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall, and Sarah, Duchess of York. Most people of English and Scottish ancestry have a royal ancestor somewhere in their family tree.

Just one of the lines Diana is descended from Charles II, through Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond:
- Charles II
- Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond
- Charles Lennox, 2nd Duke of Richmond
- Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond
- Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond
- Lady Cecilia Catherine Gordon-Lennox
- Lady Rosalind Cecilia Hamilton
- Cynthia Spencer, Countess Spencer
- John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer
- Lady Diana Spencer


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Maybe some well informed person here will be able to tell me more about Diana's ancestors. I know she was related to Georgiana the 5th Duchess of Devonshire whose life turned out to be similar to her own.
Goergiana was just Duchess of Cavendish, not 5th Duchess; that would imply she was a Duchess in her own right. Her husband, however, was indeed the 5th Duke of Cavendish. Diana was not a descendant of the Duchess; she was her great-great-grandniece. Sarah, Duchess of York is, on the other hand a direct descendant, through Georgiana's illegitimate daughter Eliza Courtney:
- Georgiana, Duchess of Cavendish
- Eliza Courtney
- Eliza Brand, Viscountess Hampden
- Henry Brand, 2nd Viscount Hampden
- Honourable Margaret Brand
- Colonel Andrew Ferguson
- Major Ronald Ferguson
- Sarah Ferguson

Diana's notable ancesotrs include John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough, Britain's first Prime Minister Robert Walpole, Maria, Duchess of Gloucester and Edinburgh. Through the House of Stuart, Diana (like Sarah and Camilla) was descended from the House of Bourbon (through Henry IV of France's daughter, Henrietta of France - Charles I's wife), House of Medici, House of Sforza, House of Wittelsbach, and other prominent houses.

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Talking about Prince William being half Spencer, I wonder if he will call himself Spencer-Windsor or Spencer-Mountbatten or Mountbatten-Windsor ?
The name of the Royal House is and will be Windsor. Now, when Prince Charles becomes King, he may issue Royal Proclamation changing it to Windsor-Mountbatten, although personally I think it is extremely unlikely. What is not just unlikely, but virtually impossible is a House of Windsor-Mountbatten-Spencer; I could bet every last penny I have that will not happen, neither during William's reign, nor that of his descendants.
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  #95  
Old 05-27-2012, 03:16 PM
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I read somewhere...the Spencers were the richest pig farmers in England.
Sheep not swine.
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:25 PM
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I think that Charles and William will both use Windsor, because it's the name of the Royal House. Windsor is very much the family "brand"; and the family has been successful, for the most part, when they've used it.

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Diana is on the cover of the current issue of Macleans magazine, but it's not a flattering article....
No, I haven't read it; but it sounds as though the article might be a publicity piece for Penny Junor's new book. Was it written by her?

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Originally Posted by mariaantoniapia View Post
I read or heard from someone that the Harrods departmentstore's Diana memorial was removed or something.
The removal of the memorial to Diana and Dodi was removed because Harrod's was sold by Dodi's father. The memorial was actually quite "tacky" and was more a propaganda piece by Mohammad al Fayed attempting to show that Diana and Dodi were deeply in love and were going to marry. It actually wasn't a very attractive piece. It was too romantic. There are a lot of memorials to Diana around, from her memorial fountain to displays in Kensington Palace to a memorial walk to hospital wings with her name on them. She won't be forgotten for a long time.
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  #97  
Old 05-28-2012, 04:20 AM
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Diana was five times descended from the House of Stuart...
Thank you very much for the information above. You know a lot about the nobility and the royalty of the UK.
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Sheep not swine.
Thank you !
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I think that Charles and William will both use Windsor, because it's the name of the Royal House.
Yes, it's more likely. I think so, too.
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
The removal of the memorial to Diana and Dodi was removed because Harrod's was sold by Dodi's father.
I see. I had never seen the Diana memorial at Harrods but if it was bad, then, it was good that it was removed.

I did not know there are other Diana memorials in London. One I saw was in Kensington and I saw a building attached a hotel where I stayed which housed something to do with Diana Memorial Fund.

Hope Diana will live in people's hearts for ever.
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  #98  
Old 05-28-2012, 06:33 AM
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Thank you very much for the information above. You know a lot about the nobility and the royalty of the UK.
You are welcome.
Genealogy is a hobby of mine, especially genealogy of British noble families.
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  #99  
Old 05-28-2012, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
No, I haven't read it; but it sounds as though the article might be a publicity piece for Penny Junor's new book. Was it written by her?

No, but it does quote her.
The writer was a man named Kenneth Macqueen.
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  #100  
Old 06-08-2012, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mariaantoniapia
Thank you very much for the information above. You know a lot about the nobility and the royalty of the UK.
Thank you !
Yes, it's more likely. I think so, too.
I see. I had never seen the Diana memorial at Harrods but if it was bad, then, it was good that it was removed.

I did not know there are other Diana memorials in London. One I saw was in Kensington and I saw a building attached a hotel where I stayed which housed something to do with Diana Memorial Fund.

Hope Diana will live in people's hearts for ever.
I saw the memorial at Harrod's a few years ago. It was a plexiglass box about a meter square with 'the ring' and a few mementos.
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