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  #61  
Old 12-03-2010, 08:36 AM
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Discussion of the topic "who is Royal?" has been moved to the Members of the Royal Family thread.
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  #62  
Old 02-08-2011, 08:29 PM
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Diana is also a descendant of the Este House of Ferrarra. I have the genealogy somewhere (it's mentioned on wikipedia under House of Este, I believe, but I did go verify that particular line).

Of course, over a period of something like 700 years, the Estes had plenty of time to distribute their genes/blood.
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  #63  
Old 06-18-2011, 11:17 AM
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I don't get how people say the Spencers are more aristocratic than the Windsors.How is that?Don't the Windsors relate to all the Kings and Queens of England?
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  #64  
Old 06-18-2011, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyKatherineGrey View Post
Hi all,

I've just signed up and this is my first posting so go easy please. I've traced Diana back to the great Princess Mary Tudor through her paternal grandmothers side, Cynthia Elanor Hamilton. I see there is quite a bit of talk about whether or not Diana is a Stuart via Charles II progeny but I am correct in that she is in fact a legitimate Tudor descendant but mostly down female lines? Does a legitimate Tudor connection top a illegitimate Stuart claim?
You are correct that Diana is a legitimate descendant of Mary Tudor, Duchess of Suffolk, and sister of Henry VIII. I do believe that a legitimate line of descent is more important than an illegitimate one, but there are several fascinating lines of ancestry for Diana.. The legitimate line is as follows - for those who may not know the ancestry:

Mary Tudor, Duchess of Suffolk (aka The French Queen) --> Eleanor Brandon, Countess of Cumberland --> Margaret Clifford, Countess of Derby --> Ferdinando Stanley, Earl of Derby (his wife was Alice Spencer, dau of Sir John Spencer of Althorp) --> Frances Stanley, Countess of Bridgewater --> John Edgerton, 2nd Earl of Bridgewater --> John Egerton, 3rd Earl of Bridgewater --> Scroop Egerton, 1st Duke of Bridgewater --> Anne Egerton, Countess of Jersey --> George Bussy Villiers, 4th Earl of Jersey --> Caroline Villiers, Duchess of Argyll --> Caroline Paget, Duchess of Richmond and Lennox --> Cecilia Gordon-Lennox, Countess of Lucan --> Rosaline Bingham, Duchess of Abercorn --> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer of Althorp --> Edward Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer of Althorp --> Diana, Princess of Wales

This ancestry is comparable to the ancestry of Prince Charles in that they are both descended from Henry VII through female lines.. Charles from Margaret Tudor and Diana from Mary.

If you believe that Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon, was the illegitimate son of Henry VIII (as I do), then Diana is also descended from the Tudors in the male line (illegitimately) as follows:

Henry VIII --> Henry Carey, Baron Hunsdon --> Robert Carey, 1st Earl of Monmouth --> The Hon. Thomas Carey --> Elizabeth Carey, Viscountess Mordaunt --> Brig. Gen. the Hon. Lewis Mordaunt --> Anna Maria Mordaunt, the Hon. Mrs. Stephen Poyntz --> Margaret Poyntz, Countess Spencer of Althorp --> George Spencer, 2nd Earl Spencer of Althorp --> Frederick Spencer, 4th Earl Spencer --> Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer --> Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer --> Edward Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer --> Diana, Princess of Wales

Personally, I find these lines more vastly entertaining than the Stuart connections.
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  #65  
Old 08-05-2011, 04:59 AM
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I also find the other less obvious connections far more interesting as well, like the one between Diana and Charles stemming from the Queen Mother back to the 3rd Duke of Devonshire from memory. And the double connection of Sarah Ferguson to the mutual ancestor with Camilla. It seems Camilla's family has a long heritage of moving intimately in royal circles. Thanks again for the Hudson connection.
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  #66  
Old 08-15-2011, 12:04 AM
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Ah, those blood lines are fascinating. The Mary Tudor line managed to marry off quite a few daughters to titled persons.
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  #67  
Old 10-09-2011, 10:24 PM
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hi all, i am practically new here..

i also want to share some information regarding the ancestry of Lady Diana, Princess of Wales..

as we all know, Diana is a descendant of King James II through an illegitimate line from his relationship with Arabella Churchill, sister to the great Duke of Marlborough..

King James II of England>>> Henrietta Fitz-James, Countess of Newcastle >>> James Waldergrave, 1st Earl Waldergrave >>> James Waldergrave, 2nd Earl Waldergrave >>> Lady Anna Horatia Waldergrave >>> Sir Horace Seymour >>> Adelaide Horatia Seymour, Countess Spencer >>> Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer >>> Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

Diana shares this line with the current Dukes of Alba making the current title bearer, Cayenata Fitz-James Stuart, 18th Duchess of Alba a distant relative as Diana's ancestor Henrietta Fitz-James is the sister of James Fitz-James, 1st Duke of Berwick..

also through this line, Diana is a direct descendant of William the Conqueror through a illegitimate yet unbroken line which as follows..

King William I "The Conqueror" >>> King Henry I of England >>> Mathilde, Holy Roman Empress >>> King Henry II of England >>> King John I of England >>> King Henry III of England >>> King Edward I of England >>> King Edward II of England >>> King Edward III of England >>> Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence >>> Philippa Plantagenet, 5th Countess of Ulster >>> Roger de Mortimer, 4th earl of March >>> Anne de Mortimer, Countess of Cambridge >>> King Edward IV of England >>> Elizabeth of York >>> Margaret Tudor >>> King James V of Scotland >>> Mary, Queen of Scots >>> James IV and I of Scotland and England >>> King Charles I of England >>> King James II of England >>> Henrietta Fitz-James, Countess of Newcastle >>> James Waldergrave, 1st Earl Waldergrave >>> James Waldergrave, 2nd Earl Waldergrave >>> Lady Anna Horatia Waldergrave >>> Sir Horace Seymour >>> Adelaide Horatia Seymour, Countess Spencer >>> Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer >>> Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

also, most people tend to connect Diana's royal bloodline through the illegitimate line which she descends, but people must also know that Diana descended through a legitimate yet morganatic line of Frederick V, Elector Palatine and King of Bohemia who was also apparently the father of Sophia of Hanover, the direct ancestor of the current British Royal Family..

here is the line..

Frederick V, Elector Palatine and King of Bohemia (married Princess Elizabeth of Scotland and England, daughter of King James IV and I of Scotland and England) >>> Charles I Louis, Elector Palatine >>> Karoline von der Pfalz, Duchess of Schomberg >>> Lady Federica Schomberg >>> Lady Caroline D'arcy >>> Lady Louisa Kerr >>> Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond >>> Lady Cecilia Catherine Gordon-Lennox, Countess of Lucan >>> Rosalind Bingham, Duchess of Abercorn >>> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

now, base on this bloodline, we can say that Diana indeed is a direct descendant from William the Conqueror in both male (illegitimate) and female (morganatic) line.. it is also a fun fact that if Prince William, Duke of Cambridge is to become king and uses his first given name as his regnal name, he would be known as King William V of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Commonwealth Realms.

with such line, we can conclude that Diana descended from both children of King James IV and I of Scotland and England, meaning Diana has more Stuart bloodline than Prince Charles considering that Charles only possess Stuart bloodline through the female line.. also, Charles I Louis' granddaughter, Frederica Mildmay, Countess of Mértola was the most senior descendant of King James IV and I of Scotland and England to be Protestant via cognatic primogeniture but was passed over for Sophia of Hanover as heir to the British Throne..

also, Diana is a direct descendant of the House of Hanover through an unbroken line.. yes, most people only associate Diana with the Stuarts when in fact, she is also a direct descendant of the Hanover.. Diana's great-great-great-great grand mother is the half sister of King George I of Great Britain, son of Sophia, Electress of Hanover.. here is the line..

Ernest Augustus, Elector of Brunswick-Lüneburg >>> Sophia von Platen und Hallermund, Countess of Leinster and Darlington >>> Mary Sophia von Kielmansegg, Viscountess Howe >>> Richard Howe, 1st Earl Howe >>> Sophia Charlotte Howe, Baroness Howe >>> Richard William Penn Curzon-Howe, 1st Earl Howe (Second Creation) >>> Lady Mary Anna Curzon-Howe >>> James Albert Edward Hamilton, 3rd Duke of Abercorn >>> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

Diana is also a direct descendant of powerful Italian Noble families such as that of the House of Sforza, who ruled as the Dukes of Milan and the House of Medici who ruled as the Grand Dukes of Tuscany.. she is also a direct descendant of the legendary Caterina Sforza, Countess of Forlě through an unbroken bloodline..

Muzio Sforza >>> Francesco I Sforza, Duke of Milan >>> Galeazzo Sforza, Duke of Milan >>> Caterina Sforza, Countess of Forlě >>> Lodovico de' Medici >>> Cosimo I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany >>> Francesco I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany >>> Marie de' Medici, Queen of France >>> Henrietta Maria of France, Queen of England >>> King Charles II of England >>> Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Lennox, 2nd Duke of Richmond >>> Lord George Lennox >>> Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond >>> Lady Cecilia Catherine Gordon-Lennox, Countess of Lucan >>> Rosalind Bingham, Duchess of Abercorn >>> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

Diana also descended from the House of Toledo which were the original Dukes of Alba before the title went to the House of FitzJames as the wife of Cosimo I de' Medici was the granddaughter of Fadrique Álvarez de Toledo, 2nd Duke of Alba..

García Álvarez de Toledo, 1st Duke of Alba >>> Fadrique Álvarez de Toledo, 2nd Duke of Alba >>> Pedro Álvarez de Toledo, 2nd Marquis of Villafranca >>> Eleanor of Toledo >>> Francesco I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany >>> Marie de' Medici, Queen of France >>> Henrietta Maria of France, Queen of England >>> King Charles II of England >>> Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Lennox, 2nd Duke of Richmond >>> Lord George Lennox >>> Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond >>> Lady Cecilia Catherine Gordon-Lennox, Countess of Lucan >>> Rosalind Bingham, Duchess of Abercorn >>> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

we can conclude that Diana is also a distant relative of the current of Dukes of Medina Sidonia which descended from the line of the Marquises of Villafranca.. José María Álvarez de Toledo, 15th Duke of Medina Sidonia was originally the 11th Marquis of Villafranca.. one notable member was Luisa Isabel Álvarez de Toledo, 21st Duchess of Medina Sidonia who was known as "The Red Duchess"..

in short, Diana is not just a member of one of Britain's oldest and foremost aristocratic families, the Spencers who now holds the titles of Earl Spencer and Duke of Marlborough, she is also bound by blood to Europe's greatest Royal and Noble Houses such as the House of Normandy (from William the Conqueror), House of Plantagenet (from Mathilde, Holy Roman Empress), House of Tudor (from Mary Tudor), House of Stuart (from James IV and I of Scotland and England), House of House of Wittelsbach (from Frederick V, Elector Palatine and King of Bohemia), House of Bourbon (from Henrietta Maria of France), House of Hanover (from Ernest Augustus, Elector of Brunswick-Lüneburg), House of Medici (from Cosimo I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany), House of Sforza (from Francesco I Sforza, Duke of Milan) and a distant relative of the House of FitzJames (Dukes of Berwick) and House of Toledo (Dukes of Medina Sidonia)..

knowing this makes me happy that Diana returned the direct Stuart bloodline to the Royal Family.. also, once Prince William ascends the throne, he would be the first monarch in 300 years to have descended to all past kings of England..
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  #68  
Old 10-10-2011, 02:53 PM
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also, if i am not mistaken Diana's famous ancestor John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough was also created by Joseph I, Holy Roman Emperor as a sovereign prince as the Prince of Mindelheim.. this would make his heirs princes and princesses with the style of Serene Highness which would make them of equal marriage to any member of any Royal House.. but sadly, John Churchill died without any male heir, as a the empire operate via Salic Law which prevented female succession despite the motion of the King of Prussia, through his representative the Prince of Anhalt-Dassau, that the title should descend successively to all the heirs of Marlborough’s body but then, most of the princes of the empire refused.. the title of Duke of Marlborough was later inherited by John's eldest daughter Henrietta Godolphin, 2nd Duchess of Marlborough and later by Charles Spencer, 3rd Duke of Marlborough, son of John Churchill's second eldest daughter Anne Spencer, Countess of Sunderland.. if the King of Prussia's motion was approved, then the family's imperial titles would have been passed down even through the female line.. Anne Spencer, Countess of Sunderland, who is also in her own right Princess Anne Churchill of Mindelheim, would have passed on her imperial titles to her children and Diana as Anne's great-great-great-great-great-great granddaughter would have been Princess Diana Spencer of Mindelheim.. well, that is the theory, but i may be mistaken..

also, i think that even if the Churchill-Spencer family's imperial titles were passed down through the female line, they may have also relinquished it during the anti-German sentiment during World War I much like what the Battenbergs did..
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  #69  
Old 10-10-2011, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
also, i think that even if the Churchill-Spencer family's imperial titles were passed down through the female line, they may have also relinquished it during the anti-German sentiment during World War I much like what the Battenbergs did..
The use of foregn royal or noble titles requires approval by Royal Warrant.
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  #70  
Old 10-10-2011, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
The use of foregn royal or noble titles requires approval by Royal Warrant.
i believe Queen Anne approved of Churchill's imperial titles.. in fact, Churchill is the only British citizen to have ever given not just a foreign title like that of the Duke of Wellington, but an actual state and served as its sovereign..
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  #71  
Old 11-21-2011, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
I read somewhere that Diana was also related to former u.s. secretary Colin Powell. I wish I could remember the link.
Ancestry of Colin Powell

William Addams Reitwiesner recently died, but his website is still up.
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  #72  
Old 11-21-2011, 11:24 AM
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I am not sure about Colin Powell being related to Diana, but as she is descended from a Miss Jobs, an American, it could be from there. Incidentally, most of the Spencer money came from her so why not!
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  #73  
Old 05-21-2012, 02:49 AM
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The connections between the Royal Family and the Spencers goes back literally hundreds of years, although Diana was the first Spencer to marry into the Royal Family.

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Originally Posted by corazon View Post
anne with sarah? It's the first time that the royal family and the spencer are toghether without william and harry?
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  #74  
Old 05-21-2012, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
The connections between the Royal Family and the Spencers goes back literally hundreds of years, although Diana was the first Spencer to marry into the Royal Family.
yes, of course, diana was in line with harles II, but sine diana death only we can see the spencer and windsor together with william and harry. Diana's funeral, diana's fountain diana's 10 anniversary and william's wedding. I think in some birtdays of the boys too but never see the spencer and windsor togheter without william or harry
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Today the world has embraced new royal Princesses in the form of Mary of Denmark and Maxima of the Netherlands. But it's questionable whether even these hugely popular, increasingly glamorous future Queens will ever capture the world's imagination in the same way as Diana.
As Mario acknowledges: "She really was a true Princess".
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  #75  
Old 05-21-2012, 06:44 PM
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Really, the Spencers are the most illustrious family from British aristocracy, they descend directly of all kings and queens of England who left descendants, except from the Windsor Kings ("Windsor" are actually the Saxe Coburgh Gotha, originally from a german principality). Diana's grandmother Ruth Roche, Baroness Fermoy was the closest friend of the Queen Mother, and her and the Queen were present in Frances and the 8th Earl Spencer Wedding.The Queen is Godmother Diana's brother Lord Spencer.
I've found another pics from Lady Sarah Mccorquodale and Princess Anne in that same event and another pics of her that shows Lady Sarah's interests are those typical from aristocracy, as horses and huntings:
http://medias.photodeck.com/931edafc...165_xlarge.jpg
http://medias.photodeck.com/f4792a1e...179_xlarge.jpg
http://medias.photodeck.com/d91bf27e...168_xlarge.jpg
http://medias.photodeck.com/25bc5ede...171_xlarge.jpg
http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-ge...12Feb11-93.jpg
http://medias.photodeck.com/cf8ee6ca...083_xlarge.jpg
http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-ge...d-5Mar11-9.jpg
http://medias.photodeck.com/58a032c8...184_xlarge.jpg
http://medias.photodeck.com/94525768...077_xlarge.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6192/...18ac60a910.jpg
Lady Sarah McCorquodale with Prince William and Kate Middleton
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...04_468x386.jpg
http://www.royaltyinthenews.com/wp-c...lliam-Aunt.jpg
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/P...LwrrKb-DZl.jpg
Lady Sarah Mccorquodale and Lady Jane, Baroness Fellowes and Chelsy Davy:
http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-ge...Di-Sisters.jpg
http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-ge...Di-Sisters.jpg
Lady Sarah in recent Wedding of Spencer family:
http://www.heatworld.com/images/1011...Corquodale.jpg
Thanksgiving for Diana
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/767...0D22D75EAB5FDE
An article about the Spencer sisters and the royal connections of Jane, Baroness Fellowes
http://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&rc...WDL9GZ3de4SakA
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  #76  
Old 05-21-2012, 06:48 PM
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Well we have a lot of old and illustrious families in the UK, many of which can claim descent from ancient royal lines, including the Spencers but I don't think I would say the Spencers are the most illustrious. Certainly not in their contributions to the nation.
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  #77  
Old 05-21-2012, 08:34 PM
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Had it not been for Diana's marriage to The Prince of Wales, most of us-especially outside of the UK--probably would never had heard of them.
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  #78  
Old 05-22-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Had it not been for Diana's marriage to The Prince of Wales, most of us-especially outside of the UK--probably would never had heard of them.
Yeah, of course, actually what all the world has been heard is about Victoria Beckham, Lady Gaga and the Kardashian girls, shallow mainstream culture, but we are talking about the British aristocracy, that was until recent times (but not now) one of the most closed and exclusive stabilishments of the world. Very snobbish and arrogant, of course, but it doesn't change the fact Lady Diana Spencer was a direct descendant of all Tudor kings, Stuart Kings, form Mary Queen of Scots, William the Conqueror, and also of all the main kings and queens of the Europe's history as Charlemagne, the Medici family from Florence, the Kings of France, the Habsburgs. Of course it is just interesting, no human being is best or worst due to the ancestors. And, hadn't the Stuart Kings left no descendants, the "Windsors" (actually Saxe Coburgh Gotha, originary from an obscure german principality) would be totally unknown right now... That's the way things be, and there's a concensus among genealogists that the Spencers have far more royal bood in their veins than the Windsors, and it is very rare a direct lineage from so many crowned heads. Diana even descends from the ancient Kings of Persia and Babilonia, as Darius. And there was certainly prejudice, 'cause Frances used to say the Windsors were "little germans", Diana talked about she had married into a "german family". And when Prince Philip and the Queen have threatened Diana to taking her the tittle , she answered "My tittle is older than yours!"
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  #79  
Old 05-22-2012, 02:51 PM
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While the Spencer's are an aristocratic family with an old and noble lineage, and even some royal lineage through largely illegitimate lines, to say they are more royal than the BRF is stretching reality more than a little bit. It makes a good story though.
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  #80  
Old 05-22-2012, 02:56 PM
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Eh, some aristos used to sneer at the Spencers as "sheep farmers!"

Just goes to show, no matter how high your position, you can always find a bigger snob to look down on you.
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