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  #1121  
Old 06-22-2017, 05:42 AM
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I disagree. I'd much rather have a person be himself and open and honest with everyone than to remain behind a wall of "mystique".

In other words, I'd rather have someone on the public stage that I see as a person rather than a person in a role.
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  #1122  
Old 06-22-2017, 05:51 AM
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I respect your view Osipi, but I cannot share it..Possibly its a British v American difference !

Its not about 'mystique' so much as 'keeping something for oneself'. His words can [and will] be wilfully misinterpreted by others who have 'their own axe to grind', and once they have escaped his lips he cannot control or predict how they might be seen...or used.
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  #1123  
Old 06-22-2017, 06:13 AM
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I respect your opinion also wyevale and the sound reasoning behind it.

That is a biggie that I didn't take into consideration. The interpretations that others could put on whatever he says and twist it and turn it to mean something opposite from what Harry intended it to mean in the first place.

I think it was Joseph Goebbels that stated something to the effect that if a lie is stated often enough and loud enough, it creates its own element of truth or something to that effect and there's wisdom behind those words.

Perhaps in constructive thinking, your opinion is much more valid than mine is.
Thanks.
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  #1124  
Old 06-22-2017, 06:21 AM
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Gracefully put, thanks Osipi..

I think that the Princes' Stepmother has 'the right idea' in her silence, discretion and tact...
NO-ONE can use or misinterpret words left unsaid ! x
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  #1125  
Old 06-22-2017, 08:09 AM
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So, I will be going to buy Newsweek to read the entire article and see for myself what Harry did or didn't say, rather than reading snippets that another publication has cherry picked and misinterpreting and judging and posting on that.
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  #1126  
Old 06-22-2017, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
NO GOOD will come of 'emoting' in public, by either of the Princes.. it was a disaster for their Mother and it is likely to be the same for them
Talk to trusted friends/family/counsellors by ALL means, but 'never apologise, never EXPLAIN' is an infinitely wiser course...

I very much agree with this.

By going public with opinions and lamentations about how they might or might not have been treated by family and staff, William and Harry run the risk of starting up the War of the Wales again, stirring up the public about what should remain private.

That all being said, let's pivot and look to see why he might be doing this.

Perhaps Harry was disconcerted when, a short while ago, Charles's letter to Mrs. Reagan about his "Greek tragedy" marriage was published, along with Camilla's comments about her 1990's upsetting ordeals with photographers. Could Harry be pushing back at them, emulating his mother by doing it through the press and public opinion?

edit - I just found out that his interview was taped months ago, so "push back" would make no sense.
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  #1127  
Old 06-22-2017, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Perhaps the statement that no young boy of his age should ever be made to walk being his mother's coffin could also express the feeling that no young boy of 12 should ever lose his mother that way and at that age in the first place. We've seen some pretty good examples to the contrary that the boys were not "made" to make this very public walk. Is it possible that that Harry was referring to the event that created the need for the walk in the first place rather than adults pushing the child to do something he'd rather not do?

Just some random thoughts.
Probably as usual Harry doesn't engage brain before he speaks.. I don't believe he was pushed. but whether he was or not, he should keep quiet about it.
He has friends, he can talk to about his feelings for his mother and the awful tragedy..and as he's said, he has had therapy.. tehre's no need to refer except obliquely to the problems his parent's marriage caused or any difficulties that came out at the time of her death.
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  #1128  
Old 06-22-2017, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I disagree. I'd much rather have a person be himself and open and honest with everyone than to remain behind a wall of "mystique".

In other words, I'd rather have someone on the public stage that I see as a person rather than a person in a role.
But you dotn know what is the real truth of what he is "portraying" In this latest stuff about his childhood. He may be misremebering, he may be deliberately distorting what happened.. he may be saying things to illustrate a point or to get attention. In short you don't really know wehter he is being "open and honest" just because he talks of these matters
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  #1129  
Old 06-22-2017, 06:39 PM
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But Denville, we here know nothing really of what happened behind closed doors in that dreadful week, or what pressures, if any, the boys were under. At least Harry knows something of what went on. He was there. We put our own interpretations on statements in interviews, if anything is said openly by a member of the Royal family, and that interpretation of someone else's feelings is often coloured by whether we like the Royal or not.
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  #1130  
Old 06-22-2017, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
But you don't know what is the real truth of what he is "portraying" in this latest stuff about his childhood. He may be mis-remembering, he may be deliberately distorting what happened, he may be saying things to illustrate a point or to get attention. In short you don't really know wehter he is being "open and honest" just because he talks of these matters.
Good final point. We also don't (wholly) know the character of the man. We can infer from several situations he has been in, and interviews. It's not the first time he has been indiscreet.

It also makes the situation difficult (maybe) for other BRF members who recall that time, lived through it, but from whom we will never hear a word regarding it because they adhere to the protocol calling for discretion in all matters personal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
But Denville, we here know nothing really of what happened behind closed doors in that dreadful week, or what pressures, if any, the boys were under. At least Harry knows something of what went on. He was there. We put our own interpretations on statements in interviews, if anything is said openly by a member of the Royal family, and that interpretation of someone else's feelings is often coloured by whether we like the Royal or not.
He was a 12 year old child. What he 'knows went on' is specific to his age back then. He was not a primary actor in the situation (like Charles was, for example).
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  #1131  
Old 06-22-2017, 11:36 PM
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Well, in the two forthcoming documentaries to mark Diana's death this August BOTH brothers will be talking about their feelings regarding her death and funeral. So if William speaks about those times, and he will, is he also going to be labelled indiscreet by you, or is it just Harry?

Both brothers were there at the time. We weren't. Both have their memories of that time and I don't think they should be discounted.

I lost my mother at twelve and my memories of her death and her funeral are quite clear and correspond with the memories of other relatives. I don't suffer from false memory syndrome with regard to my mother's demise and funeral, nor do I believe that is the case with either William or Harry.
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  #1132  
Old 06-23-2017, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Well, in the two forthcoming documentaries to mark Diana's death this August BOTH brothers will be talking about their feelings regarding her death and funeral. So if William speaks about those times, and he will, is he also going to be labelled indiscreet by you, or is it just Harry?
There seems to be a shared standard of discretion among members of the BRF regarding personal matters. If both William and Harry are not abiding by that boundary, it's an interesting choice, don't you think? No one else in the BRF does this, and, in fact, when Sarah, the Duchess of York, indulged in this kind of thing years ago, she was soundly condemned. Double standard? Wondering. I am not British, remember, so my sensibilities may not jive with British sensibilities in this.
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  #1133  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
But Denville, we here know nothing really of what happened behind closed doors in that dreadful week, or what pressures, if any, the boys were under. At least Harry knows something of what went on. He was there. We put our own interpretations on statements in interviews, if anything is said openly by a member of the Royal family, and that interpretation of someone else's feelings is often coloured by whether we like the Royal or not.
exactly... If there were rows and tensions at the time which does happen whne someone dies and there is tension in the family, it is usually IMO best kept iwhtin the family. If Harry says something, unless he goes int a long complex explanation of what happened.. its bound to be interpreted one way or another by people depending on whether they like Harry/Charles/Diana etc. Rows and family tensions happen esp at funerals. and give the way the war of the Waleses still seems to be being fought, by what is probably a minority of people, isn't it best to let the tensions stay in the past in the family rather than adding to this dragging the "war" along still?
I don't believe the boys were "pushed" to walk, but I believe that Charles Spencer feels they should not have been asked to do it.. From what I understand it was felt that it would be good if they could do it, but if they didn't feel able to, it was understood and they would have been allowed to arrive in a different way. PHilip I believe told Will that if he didn't walk, he might feel bad about it latter and I think that it is true. It was a sad thing for him to have to do, but if he hadn't done it he might later have felt that he let his mother take her last journey alone without him.. and it was good that he was able to do it, with PHIlips companionship. So I don't really think, if there were some disputes that were resolved, it is a good thing for harry ot bring the issue up now.
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  #1134  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
There seems to be a shared standard of discretion among members of the BRF regarding personal matters. If both William and Harry are not abiding by that boundary, it's an interesting choice, don't you think? No one else in the BRF does this, and, in fact, when Sarah, the Duchess of York, indulged in this kind of thing years ago, she was soundly condemned. Double standard? Wondering. I am not British, remember, so my sensibilities may not jive with British sensibilities in this.
Well, there certainly seems to be a double standard going in with regard to Harry in comparison to his brother going on by some posters including yourself, in which Harry is to be condemned for indiscretion in speaking about this, when both William and Harry have spoken openly in recent times about their mother and the effect it had on them.

This has occurred in both separate and joint interviews, ie William's wide ranging interview with a magazine some time ago, in which he mentioned his mother and the effect of her loss and didn't mention his father at all, something which didn't go unremarked by onlookers, including posters to this forum. Yet Harry gets hammered for being indiscreet, in talking about the walk behind the cortège with you specifically citing his past behaviour, and his brother gets a pass. Fair? I don't think so!

So, I ask again, if William imparts his feelings in the upcoming documentaries about his mother and her passing, and his opinion about HIS walk on that day, is he going to be equally condemned for being 'indiscreet' and how he shouldn't speak about such things, or is he going to get a pass and Harry be blamed?

Perhaps, in spite of the sensibilities of some posters here, both men want to speak about that week and the impact it had on them. Perhaps both want to be honest about their feelings as young royals walking behind their mother's coffin. Perhaps they both want to get the information out into the public arena about how they felt and feel about their beloved mother's passing. Also, if they don't wish to include their father in these memories, then that surely is up to them, not us. And I emphasise them, not just one brother.
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  #1135  
Old 06-23-2017, 03:43 AM
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Denville, in your previous post you've pointed out something intrinsically important that jumps out at me.

There's been much discussion about how negative it was perhaps to "push" the boys to walk behind their mother's coffin in a very public funeral and then back and forth discussions about what the discord of the behind the scenes were like leading up to the funeral.

One thing that was very much a positive is the way they all did fall in together to support each other during the funeral. Philip, which a lot of people grew to understand could not abide Diana and her actions, walked. Charles, the ex-husband free after a very acrimonious marriage, walked. These two people realized the importance of being there for William and Harry. They weren't walking behind Diana's coffin because of a heart wrenching loss but because they were a support system for two boys who were suffering such a loss.

Of course a unexpected death causes all kinds of confusion with emotions that expresses these confusions but within it all there is also the positives of caring about another person's loss, their well being and gentle guidance to help them cope. We can focus on the negatives until the cows come home but lets look also at the positives. There's balance in everything.

Same with just about everything else we discuss. Harry's openness in his interviews create both negative and positive reactions. They're both valid.
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  #1136  
Old 06-23-2017, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Well, there certainly seems to be a double standard going in with regard to Harry in comparison to his brother going on by some posters including yourself, in which Harry is to be condemned for indiscretion in speaking about this, when both William and Harry have spoken openly in recent times about their mother and the effect it had on them. [...] Harry gets hammered for being indiscreet, in talking about the walk behind the cortège with you specifically citing his past behaviour, and his brother gets a pass. Fair? I don't think so!
What?

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
So, I ask again, if William imparts his feelings in the upcoming documentaries about his mother and her passing, and his opinion about HIS walk on that day, is he going to be equally condemned for being 'indiscreet' and how he shouldn't speak about such things, or is he going to get a pass and Harry be blamed?
Dunno. Not my thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Perhaps, in spite of the sensibilities of some posters here, both men want to speak about that week and the impact it had on them. Perhaps both want to be honest about their feelings as young royals walking behind their mother's coffin. Perhaps they both want to get the information out into the public arena about how they felt and feel about their beloved mother's passing. Also, if they don't wish to include their father in these memories, then that surely is up to them, not us. And I emphasise them, not just one brother.
Now this I can speak to because it is exactly this kind of thing that made Diana such an issue for the BRF. If Diana was more discreet it is probable that she would still be the Princess of Wales and would be Queen one day.

If William and Harry both start down that thorny road of 'sharing' their private lives with the public, I predict that King Charles will be Britain's last monarch.
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  #1137  
Old 06-23-2017, 02:21 PM
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Denville, in your previous post you've pointed out something intrinsically important that jumps out at me.

One thing that was very much a positive is the way they all did fall in together to support each other during the funeral. Philip, which a lot of people grew to understand could not abide Diana and her actions, walked. Charles, the ex-husband free after a very acrimonious marriage, walked. These two people realized the importance of being there for William and Harry. They weren't walking behind Diana's coffin because of a heart wrenching loss but because they were a support system for two boys who were suffering such a loss.

Same with just about everything else we discuss. Harry's openness in his interviews create both negative and positive reactions. They're both valid.
I think that Philip and Charles did walk to support the boys, because it would have been diffcult for them without someone to help them along. I think the RF wanted them to walk because it was proper protocol but they did make allowances for the fact that they were very young and it would not be easy and if they had really felt unable to face it, I think that it is a given that they would have not been pressurised. And I think that Phil was right, if he said that WIll would regret it if he didn't, I think he would have felt bad afterwards..but it was hard for them to do.
But given that they DID manage to find a way of coping, and had the support of their father and grandfather, I think that they shoudl now let any negative feelings they have about the walk go, and not allude to them later on, for the publc who don't need to know this. but well harry aint very bright.. and I can't help feeling that the whole Heads togehter thing seems to be bringing out this confessional streak in them.
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  #1138  
Old 06-23-2017, 03:00 PM
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I don't see Harry as a not so bright person but I also see a willingness to perhaps to be a tad bit too open. Many, many places Harry has been described as wearing his heart on his sleeve and it shows with his interactions with people. He's open, he's caring, he gets down to their level and communicates.

Harry has also said that he's kept things inside and buried for a very long time and its just recently that he's found the freedom to talk about his trials and tribulations that keeping things pushed back somewhere where the sun don't shine and that wasn't healthy. He's had a breakthrough and its a spurt of emotional growth for him. With that comes the work towards emotional maturity that needs to continue and its an ongoing challenge that sometimes takes a lifetime.

Even with the best of intentions of his words, he runs the risk of being misinterpreted by other people. That's something he probably still has to master. I do agree with you that the hurts and the feelings experienced 20 years ago by both William and Harry personally with their mother's death isn't something that should be hitting every tabloid in the world regardless of what the good intentions of doing it would be. If they were addressing a group of people in grief counseling without the press and cameras on a private basis, that would be a good venue perhaps but not something for all and sundry to hash and rehash over and over and over again.

As I said before, perhaps this latest "revelation" will be something that Harry will look back on and wish he hadn't done. I think his intentions were in the right place but the results from it totally missed the mark. Mistakes are how one learns what *not* to do in the future.

Trust me on this. I've made more than my share of mistakes. They all seemed like the right thing to do at the time though.
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  #1139  
Old 06-23-2017, 03:06 PM
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well Osipi we're getting a bit OT here I suppose but you've just said it.. if Harry IS feeling an emotional rush about his Mum's death now, with the 20th Anniversary coming up, that's understandable.. and its good problaby for him to talk about it.. but to FRIENDS, to his brother, his girlfriend.. even his dad and grandparents. (or a therapist) NOOOT to the press. let Di be remembered for her sweet nature and her love for her boys, not for the rows that erupted.
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  #1140  
Old 06-23-2017, 03:17 PM
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In some cultures its considered uncouth to speak ill of the dead. I wish someone could wave a magic wand and cause a change in mass consciousness in this regards. Mine's in the shop.
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