Frances Shand Kydd (1936-2004) - Diana's Mother

[Denville]

I don't really see wy they should be supportive as such. Diana was an adult, even if she was young. She chose to marry Charles, and if it iddn't work out, I don't really believe that family support would make it wrok..
But I think that both her mother and grandmother were selfish in their ways and in Frances' situation I don't think she did that much to prepare Di for adult life.. (let her idle at school, didn't really help her learn about the sort of social life things - etiquette, organising social events etc that would be helpful for her as a married woman "in society" or particuarly as the wife of a Prince).. And Ruth Fermoy IF the story I brought up is true, seemed to regard her granddaughter as borderline unstable, and feel that she should have warned the RF off marrying her.
I hoped that someone would know how like that story about Lady F is to be true and we could discuss...

 

[Osipi]

When Diana was growing up, it still was pretty much done in the "old school" way of raising children. Boarding school, finishing school etc. These weren't families that sat down every night at the dining room table and hashed out how their day went and the ups and downs of life.

With her divorce and then subsequent marriage, I think Frances always tried to stay close with her children. With not having custody of them, visitation and just seeing her children now and then (and perhaps as frequently as she could), its not the same as being right there each day and really being inside her children's heads to know what everyday matters are going on.

Grandma and mama could have given Diana support 24/7 but by the time it was pretty much a given that Diana was in a position that she could marry Charles and become the Princess of Wales, I really doubt that, at that point, she would have listened. When someone is handed the keys to the candy store, they're not going to care who is giving them toothbrushes and toothpaste to prevent cavities but have all eyes front and center to the goodies.

 

[Dman]

I don't really see wy they should be supportive as such. Diana was an adult, even if she was young. She chose to marry Charles, and if it iddn't work out, I don't really believe that family support would make it wrok..
But I think that both her mother and grandmother were selfish in their ways and in Frances' situation I don't think she did that much to prepare Di for adult life.. (let her idle at school, didn't really help her learn about the sort of social life things - etiquette, organising social events etc that would be helpful for her as a married woman "in society" or particuarly as the wife of a Prince).. And Ruth Fermoy IF the story I brought up is true, seemed to regard her granddaughter as borderline unstable, and feel that she should have warned the RF off marrying her.
I hoped that someone would know how like that story about Lady F is to be true and we could discuss...

Family love and support do make a difference, Denville. Diana didn't have any support. Although Diana was an adult, the life she married into was bigger than her. Frances should've been there for her young daughter. One can't marry into a family like that without having some proper support.

When Diana was growing up, it still was pretty much done in the "old school" way of raising children. Boarding school, finishing school etc. These weren't families that sat down every night at the dining room table and hashed out how their day went and the ups and downs of life.

With her divorce and then subsequent marriage, I think Frances always tried to stay close with her children. With not having custody of them, visitation and just seeing her children now and then (and perhaps as frequently as she could), its not the same as being right there each day and really being inside her children's heads to know what everyday matters are going on.

Grandma and mama could have given Diana support 24/7 but by the time it was pretty much a given that Diana was in a position that she could marry Charles and become the Princess of Wales, I really doubt that, at that point, she would have listened. When someone is handed the keys to the candy store, they're not going to care who is giving them toothbrushes and toothpaste to prevent cavities but have all eyes front and center to the goodies.

She would've listened to those who had her best interest at heart. Diana was left to sink or swim on her own. If she had the proper guidance, things could've been a little different for her.

Perhaps Frances thought things would work it's self out, but her daughter was young and inexperienced. Also, the stiff, starchy and formal institution she married into wasn't a big help in those days.

 

[Curryong]

Frances wasn't really around during the period when Charles was first showing a strong interest in Diana (before the engagement.) I believe the Shand Kydds took off for Australia and a sheep station, in order to make a new start for themselves.

The reason I'm pointing this out is -- If I had married at 18 and had a pretty miserable marriage buried in the depths of Norfolk to a country bred man twelve years older with whom I'd had little in common --and decades later my 19 year old youngest daughter had come to me and stated that a traditional countryman twelve years older than herself (albeit the POW) was interested and wasn't it wonderful etc ---I would have suggested a nice long trip somewhere for her, for about twelve months!

Did Frances ever think to herself, I wonder, "This is history repeating itself! No, No No!"

I have read and can't remember where, that young Frances was a very vivacious spontaneous person like her father, while her mother Ruth was quite reserved and straitlaced and the two weren't close.

Ruth however (according to what I remember reading) was terribly socially ambitious for her girls, and while the older, extremely tall and not very good looking, daughter did marry an aristocrat, Ruth's hopes were centred on the very pretty Frances. John Althorp was practically engaged to Lady Ann Coke when Frances, then still at school at about 17, kept appearing in his vicinity at every available opportunity. If Ruth Fermoy was prepared to do that (and I've no doubt she was the driving force) then I wouldn't think there'd be too much she'd balk at, quite frankly!

 

[Denville]

there are stories that Frances DID say to Diana "are you sure you're not marrying him for who he is".. but if she did say that, it seems to me that it was rather "blah" and half hearted.
I don't think she cared much, honestly. I think she liked being the Mother of the Princess esp when Di was super popular, but I get a vibe she was more concerned about herself and her own life and needs. So I doubt if she did say anything to Diana. She later said (it is quoted in Tina B's book) that she believed in " maternal redundancy, that a young couple didn't want wifes mum hanging around", so I think that was an implication that she didn't intend to be around much with Di and Charles..
I think she was very much wrapped up in herself and not willing either before or after the marriage to be there for Di. I think that there is something to be said for a mother not being around too much with a married couple but I do fault her for her selfishness while Di was younger. I think that she cared more to get her new husband than to stay with her kids while they were still young.. I think that Johnny S would have over looked an affair, and she could have remaind with him for some more time, and been there for the children.
and yes the Spencer family like many other upper class ones was more formal than today's families but still there is a sort of obligation for a socialite mother to at least train her daugthers sutaibly so tat they can handle themselves when they get married.. esp if they marry someone socially prominent, like a Prince or an ambassador or the like. And I think that Frances didn't really try to do that very hard. Di didn't do well at school, and wasn't pushed. She didn't apparently learn about the social side of life, and that was really more of a mothers role than her father's.. SHe went to finishing school but came home after half a term, and there she might have learned the "society" stuff that she didn't know. But her parents let her do this.. and didn't seem to try and equip her for adult life very well at all.

 

[Curryong]

I believe that Ruth Fermoy told Jonathon Dimbleby that she had experienced doubts before the Royal wedding about the compatibility of the couple, and Diana's capacity to fit in with the Royal Mob. So I expect her remarks are in Dimbleby's biography of Prince Charles, properly footnoted, I expect.

 

[Denville]

I believe that Ruth Fermoy told Jonathon Dimbleby that she had experienced doubts before the Royal wedding about the compatibility of the couple, and Diana's capacity to fit in with the Royal Mob. So I expect her remarks are in Dimbleby's biography of Prince Charles, properly footnoted, I expect.

But that's what she said years later when the marriage had failed. I wonder if she really said what she's supposed to have, that she knew Di was unstable and wished that she had spoken up sooner.. (and according to a post recently _sorry I can't remember the name of the poster) Ruth is said to have spoken to Johnny Spencer about this, and He replied that if they tired to stop the marriage Diana would be awful and give them hell...

 

[Osipi]

One thing I remember reading is when Charles did propose to Diana, he wanted to give her time to think it all over and decide if she really wanted to take him on. It was then, I believe, that Diana did head to Australia and her mom's place there for 1-2 weeks. I don't remember the length of time. I would imagine that they had some serious heart to heart talks then but we'll never know exactly what was said.

I don't think anyone is ever totally prepared to step into married life. It really is a huge change just for us ordinary mortals let alone have the onus of the Royal Fishbowl where the walls are glass and everybody is watching. It would have been better I think if both Charles and Diana could have lived together for a year before deciding on marriage and family but that just wasn't the way things were done at that time.

 

[Denville]

One thing I remember reading is when Charles did propose to Diana, he wanted to give her time to think it all over and decide if she really wanted to take him on. It was then, I believe, that Diana did head to Australia and her mom's place there for 1-2 weeks. I don't remember the length of time. I would imagine that they had some serious heart to heart talks then but we'll never know exactly what was said.

I wasn't the way things were done at that time.

realy I doubt that Frances said very much.. I think she was quite pleased to see her daughter making such a grand marriage and other than that, she didn't really care.. Later she intimated that she didn't think it was a good idea, that the RF were not nice, that she didn't like Charles etc etc... but I dotn believe at the time she thought that.

 

[Curryong]

Let's face it, none of us were there at the time. After a marriage fails horribly, in full view of the British public, there are always those with the 20/20 vision of hindsight who then come out and state, wringing their hands 'I knew this would end in tears...completely unsuited...disaster waiting to happen...said so to ---- (fill in the blanks) at the time', etc, etc.

As far as I can tell, apart from Penny Romsey and her husband, (who drew Charles's ire in raising doubts) everyone in Charles's circle thought Diana was a sweet girl who would fit in well. The people in Diana's life seem to have been equally delighted, and thought all would go swimmingly. Lady Fermoy surely wouldn't have confided in her old friend the QM that she thought her granddaughter was unequal to the task of becoming Prss of Wales.

Nor do I get the impression, from the little I've read about Lady Fermoy's character, that she would have been rushing up to Althorp to tell Johnny Spencer that she thought his daughter was unbalanced and unfit, nor, even if she had, would he say, IMHO, 'Well, we can't stop her when she's got her eye on something blah, blah.' and just sit there waiting for calamity to unfold. I think he was proud of and delighted in Diana, that she was in love, that it was a spectacular marriage, and that she would do the Spencers proud.

In short, I don't believe that conversation between Ruth and Johnny ever took place. I don't know where that poster got it from. I've read tons of books about Diana and never come across it, unless I've been blind! I have a strong suspicion that it might have come from a tabloid article or one of the works of fiction that Lady Colin Campbell or someone of that ilk is fond of churning out (and if that woman wrote that the sky was blue I'd have to go and check for myself!)

I believe that Ruth Fermoy was devastated at the failure of Charles and Diana's marriage. There had been rumours (untrue) that she and the QM had cooked up the match between them, and by the time of the Dimbleby book she wanted to create the impression, IMHO, that far from pushing the match she had experienced doubts about it at the beginning.

In fact, AFAIK, she just made a remark to her granddaughter at the time that she felt that the Royal family's way of life and sense of humour was very different to their own and may not suit her. A very true remark as it happens, but subtle, mild and hardly likely to put off a 19year old in love.

 

[Denville]

I'm sure I've read the basic of the story before, in that Lady F is said to have felt that Diana was a fruit loop and that she was totally unsuited to the RF and that she later regretted not telling them that C should not marry her.
But I totally don't believe that John Spencer would have said anyything like that, I agree, he was a loving father, and while he and Di had their rows, he was very proud of her having gotten the POW.. and he wouldn't have WANTED to stop such a marriage. And I dotn believe he'd say to anyone (even if it were true), "if we try and stop her doing anyting she will give us hell".

 

[Osipi]

After suffering a severe stroke in 1978, most likely Johnny Spencer's thoughts were more on his health, his wife and their day to day life than to focus on his daughter's choices. She was 19, living on her own and very capable of making up her own mind when it came to making decisions. It was really, when we look at it, quite a whirlwind courtship and a decision reached too hastily. People close to Diana had very little time to realize their opinions of how the marriage might be before all was said and done and set in stone.

 

[Denville]

I think that he and Di had had their rows over his marriage ot Raine when Diana slapped him.. But while she was wrong, I think that by and large Diana WAS rather let down by her family in many ways prior to her marriage.. I think that Johnny was focussed in her childhood on being miserable that his wife had left him.. THEN he married Raine which upset all the children.. Frances cared more about getting her freedom and remarrying than her kids, IMO, or in at least seeing that they had training for their future lives. Lady F cared more about her positon with the RF.
But I think that all the same, Johnny was fond of Di and very proud of her beauty and that she had won an offer of marriage from the Prince. So I'm sure it didn't enter his head that the marriage might not work out, or anything but to be pleased that she had such a grand marriage on offer.
I think he didn't realise really what a big job Di was undertaking and didn't really worry as to whether she could do it.. and I doubt if had Lady Fermoy really spoken to him about stopping the marriage, he would have said antying like what he is supposed to have said. I'm sure he would have said _ "Diana will be fine.. no need to worry about her."
Still I do wonder if Lady F put about a story that she had been worried abut Diana, and felt that she was too volatile or a bit too "nervy" to be in a public job like Princess of W....

 

[ladongas]

All of Diana's assorted family probably assumed that the much older Charles, understanding how difficult taking on 'the firm' might be, would have treated his young bride with tender consideration. He didn't adjust his lifestyle to hers- it was all one-sided. But her family could have cherished her a bit more, also.

 

[Curryong]

I don't think that Ruth did express doubts openly to anyone. I doubt it very much. If she did have anxieties she would have kept them to herself, IMHO.

I read Dimbleby's book on Charles last night, or at least the section leading to Charles's engagement, and Dimbleby just has a little note there that before Ruth's death she spoke to him about the marriage.

Dimbleby is very discreet and we don't know if it was a wide-ranging conversation or not, just that she told him that she had doubts at the time that Diana would make a happy Royal wife (nothing about her mental state) but because she didn't know Charles very well at the time she had said nothing to him. Lady F justified this by saying that she doubted that Charles would have been swayed anyway.

I have no doubt that she didn't speak to Earl Spencer in the way that it's been reported. How often did she see her granddaughter in those years between Diana leaving school and her becoming engaged, anyway? A lot, sometimes, hardly ever? Those years when she was bustling about, cleaning flats, looking after children, chilling with her girlfriends in her flat, going out with her small circle of friends to parties, favourite restaurants etc, were some of the happiest and most content of Diana's life.

What I mean is, would Diana have exhibited such troubled behaviour in her late teens as to have caused her grandmother to panic when it appeared that she may marry the POW, and cause her to express doubts to others?

Yes, Diana had had a troubled childhood (though I doubt that Lady F knew all the repercussions) yes, she was not scholastically gifted, yes, she never stuck at anything much, leaving things like helping the young children at ballet class after only a few weeks, etc. Yes, there was the wild Roche blood and the rebellious Spencer blood to take into account. Enough of anything though, to cause Ruth to think this marriage must not occur, that warnings must be given?

I don't think so. If she did speak to Earl S. it would have been done in private, surely? Even if Raine had been present would she have blabbed to anyone? Who was taking down the gist of this conversation, servants with ears flapping at keyholes? To me it sounds like one of those tabloid reports where journos at the Daily Fail know exactly what one Royal says to another!

If Lady F by her own admission said nothing to Charles, and it's unlikely that she said anything to her son in law, who else would she have spoken to? It wasn't for nothing that Ruth had been a courtier for years in a system where discretion is priceless and keeping your mouth shut is valued above everything. Jmo, but that's why I think that story of her warning before the engagement against Charles marrying Diana is nothing but pure fantasy.

 

[Denville]

I think that Ruth saw Diana a certain amount, but problaby not every weekend. and I guess she would have heard something through the family grapevine about the Diana raging at her father over his remarriage... but I agree, I doubt if Diana was really exhibiting wild behaviour, at that time.. There was brattish behaviour with Nannies, but that was attributable to her being lost and lonely after her mother's deserton.
she didn't stick to things, but that's not that uncommon in a young teenaged girl.
Perhaps Ruth, later in life, DID feel that Diana had had a troubled childhood, Indeed and that perhaps that was "in the famlly" because SHE had reared Frances, and promoted the marriage for Frances and Lord Spencer..and it had turned out so badly. Frances had been a "bolter" who wasn't IMO very concerned to train her daughters or make sure they at least passed a few exams at school. So maybe she felt guilty at the whole chain of events that had given Di the troubled childhood.
but seems to me that she was more concerned in her old age, that Charles had had a bad marriage than that her onw grandchild had been very unhappy.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Do you believe Diana found it hard to believe people loved her for herself and therefore came to distrust their motives?

 

[TLLK]

Sadly Cyril I believe that Diana's insecurities took root during her parents' divorce trial and the custody arrangement. Both she and her brother Charles appear to have been greatly affected by this and had difficulty in sustaining relationships/friendships with family, friends and romantic partners. However marrying Charles who was not "in love" with her only made the situation worse IMVHO.

 

[Curryong]

I agree, TLLK. From what I've read also these deep seated feelings appeared to get worse in the last year or so of her life. There was some bizarre behaviour, some mistrust of old friends which led to Diana cutting them from her life, and estrangement from some family members, such as her mother.

The divorce and afterwards proved a huge sea change for Diana. She was away from the protective wall that being a senior member of the BRF gives, under intense media pressure, with some journalists being critical for the first time ever, and probably felt quite lost. I think a lot of the feelings of abandonment she felt as a child were coming to the fore again in those last months, unfortunately.

 

[royal rob]

I think having a mother leave you to go off with her lover would cause so much pain and abandoned issues.
And before someone says fathers do it without bad outcomes. I firmly believe a mum leaving leaving her children causes a lot more damage.



Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community

 

[TLLK]

And Diana's former sister-in-law Sarah went through a similar circumstance as a child with her mother leaving the family for a new lover.

The Spencer divorce was especially ugly for that decade considering that Earl Spencer was granted custody of the children over their mother.

 

[Mermaid1962]

IMO the mother-child connection is the most fundamental connection in a young child's life, even now when dads are more hands-on. Even though Diana and her younger brother saw their mother fairly often at first, they were so very young. Her grandmother Spencer seems to have been a loving woman, but the children didn't see her very often. Prince Charles seems to have been closest to his maternal grandmother in the formative years, because his mother was away so much. However, a grandmother, even a loving one, isn't a mother. I'm pleased that the current generation of royal tots seem to spend a lot of time with their mother.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Diana's mother did not in fact leave her children. She left Johnnie Spencer, whom she alleged had been mentally and physically abusive to her. The fact that she had also fallen in love with someone else didn't help the situation.

She had purchased a home in London and intended to enroll her two youngest children Charles and Diana in school(Sarah and Jane were in boarding school) but Johnnie Spencer fought her tooth and nail for custody and with the assistance of Frances's mother Lady Fermoy and the rest of the Establishment behind him he won.

The idea that she cruelly abandoned her young children is just wrong.

Sarah's mother Susan Ferguson did in fact walk out on her kids, quite literally. Sarah's recounting of it in her memoirs was heartbreaking.


Susan Barrantes sounded like a cold, selfish occasionally cruel mom.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I agree on all points. Frances Shand-Kydd did try to keep her children. I suppose that, in those days, there was nothing like shared custody.

I have much more sympathy for her situation than I have for Sarah's mother. For most of us, it's hard to imagine the kind of selfishness that would move a mother willingly move thousands of miles away from young daughters.

The idea that she cruelly abandoned her young children is just wrong.

Sarah's mother Susan Ferguson did in fact walk out on her kids, quite literally. Sarah's recounting of it in her memoirs was heartbreaking.

Susan Barrantes sounded like a cold, selfish occasionally cruel mom.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Diana's mother did not in fact leave her children. She left Johnnie Spencer, whom she alleged had been mentally and physically abusive to her. The fact that she had also fallen in love with someone else didn't help the situation.

She had purchased a home in London and intended to enroll her two youngest children Charles and Diana in school(Sarah and Jane were in boarding school) but Johnnie Spencer fought her tooth and nail for custody and with the assistance of Frances's mother Lady Fermoy and the rest of the Establishment behind him he won.

The idea that she cruelly abandoned her young children is just wrong.

Sarah's mother Susan Ferguson did in fact walk out on her kids, quite literally. Sarah's recounting of it in her memoirs was heartbreaking.


Susan Barrantes sounded like a cold, selfish occasionally cruel mom.

Thank you! I am so sick of people painting Frances as leaving her children or calling her a bolter; when she left she took her kids and they were taken from her.

 

[Katrianna]

Yes, the physical and mental abuse Frances suffered during her marriage to Johnny Spencer has always been "conveniently" omitted by the press. It was a great injustice to her. As for Susan Ferguson, she wasn't completely the sole villain in her marriage. Ronald Ferguson carried on extra marital affairs during their marriage and even during his second marriage he had a mistress. Sarah had his mistress as her Lady-in-Waiting for a time during her marriage to Andrew. We don't always know both sides.

 

[Curryong]

However, Frances Shand Kydd moved with her husband Peter, when her youngest children Diana and Charles were eleven and eight respectively, to a remote island off the west coast of Scotland, making weekend trips and short visits by her children virtually impossible.

 

[Osipi]

There was also the ranch in Australia that they had.

Moving to a different location after a divorce and a remarriage isn't uncommon as I've done it myself but my kids were older. All I can say though is that if the Spencer divorce were to happen today, I seriously doubt that Johnnie Spencer would have gotten custody of the children so easily. In a way, I kind of hold him at fault too for not working more with his ex-wife to assure that their children had both parents in their life more. I think Johnnie tried to be a good father but he just didn't realize what the kids really needed.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

The Spencer divorce was about hurting the other person, not doing what is best for the children; at least from the way Johnnie acted. I don't know what Frances' plan was or if her claims of abuse were false or not.

 

[Denville]

There was also the ranch in Australia that they had.

Moving to a different location after a divorce and a remarriage isn't uncommon as I've done it myself but my kids were older. All I can say though is that if the Spencer divorce were to happen today, I seriously doubt that Johnnie Spencer would have gotten custody of the children so easily. In a way, I kind of hold him at fault too for not working more with his ex-wife to assure that their children had both parents in their life more. I think Johnnie tried to be a good father but he just didn't realize what the kids really needed.

Frances did have access to the children, she didn't have full custody but that wasn't unusual at the time for a wife who had left her husband and was the guilty party in terms of adultery.

and given that there were fewer ground for divorce In those days it wasn't unknown for there to be claims made that weren't strictly true. For example, divorces esp In the 20s and 30s were often collusive (although this was forbidden ad if found out could stop a divorce), with the husband "assuming guilt" and "being discovered in bed wit a woman" so that he could be divorced for adultery.
Frances was the guilty party in terms of adultery and she may have countered with an accusation about cruelty...
and Frances did move away to somewhere that it wasn't easy for the children to vist as often, Johnny shut himself up and kept the children at a distance.. so as time passed both parnets were less avaialbe for the children.
I don't think that the children's welfare and happiness were the paramount concerns for either of them, they were mainly being selfish...