The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals > Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997)

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #41  
Old 04-19-2009, 04:13 PM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
If it was in fact true. We do know that Burell alters the facts to suit whatever story he is selling and would Diana actually let the man listen in on a conversation with her mother.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 04-19-2009, 09:03 PM
georgiea's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: N/A, United States
Posts: 1,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
If it was in fact true. We do know that Burell alters the facts to suit whatever story he is selling and would Diana actually let the man listen in on a conversation with her mother.
"Diana" by Sarah Bradford said in her book that there was a falling out because of an interview to Hello her mother gave without Diana's consent and many calls were Francis (might be drunk) telling her daughter her behavior with men was not appropriate.
__________________

__________________
Watch your actions, for they become your habits. Watch your habits because they become your character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 04-20-2009, 04:37 AM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
"Diana" by Sarah Bradford said in her book that there was a falling out because of an interview to Hello her mother gave without Diana's consent and many calls were Francis (might be drunk) telling her daughter her behavior with men was not appropriate.
I have said this before, unless Bradford was there, it is unsubstantiated, so many times we are told that A was having a private conversation with B, they were the only ones present - so how on earth could anyone know what had been said. We do not know with any certainty that Frances made many calls to Diana, where she may have been drunk or that she said Diana's affairs were inappropriate, (although as a mother I too might have asked if it was a good idea, which could be misconstrued). Parents are supposed to advise when a child's behaviour might be inappropriate, no matter how old the child.

Yes Diana was probably upset that her mother had spoken to Hello, (why would she need her daughters consent), Diana was always annoyed when someone else spoke to the media.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 04-20-2009, 01:06 PM
georgiea's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: N/A, United States
Posts: 1,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I have said this before, unless Bradford was there, it is unsubstantiated, so many times we are told that A was having a private conversation with B, they were the only ones present - so how on earth could anyone know what had been said.

Yes Diana was probably upset that her mother had spoken to Hello, (why would she need her daughters consent), Diana was always annoyed when someone else spoke to the media.
Skydragon, I guess again, we have to disagree to agree. I just want to mention that there are two book sources to back up the claim about the calls and the split. Bradford backs up the claim from a named palace source that Francis wanted help from him to patch up the split.

I just want to ask this. When did Diana, Princess of Wales get annoyed when she got good press from someone else? Her mother talked to Hello about Diana losing a title and that it was good for her. Would you like that made public by your own mother? Skydragon, Diana did have a black and white personality and dropped people, but I sometimes see her as a victim of bad fate.
__________________
Watch your actions, for they become your habits. Watch your habits because they become your character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 04-20-2009, 02:07 PM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
Skydragon, I guess again, we have to disagree to agree. I just want to mention that there are two book sources to back up the claim about the calls and the split. Bradford backs up the claim from a named palace source that Francis wanted help from him to patch up the split.
And yet, as I said, how could anyone be privy to what was being said on a telephone where it would only be possible to hear one side of the conversation, at best. People tend to say 'ahh but it is written in two books, three books', without realising that many authors 'borrow' rumours from one anothers books, where it becomes 'fact'.
Quote:
I just want to ask this. When did Diana, Princess of Wales get annoyed when she got good press from someone else? Her mother talked to Hello about Diana losing a title and that it was good for her.
Frances told Hello that Diana gave up the HRH, Diana wanted to portray herself as the 'poor little me victim and those nasty people took my HRH away'. To Diana, it turned the 'people' against the royals, whereas she had given it up for a larger settlement. How was her mother supposed to realise that not telling a lie, would upset her daughter so much? How could Frances have realised that Diana wanted to pretend HM was cruel and callous.

I always felt sorry for Frances, she left her husband with the almost certain belief that judges always awarded custody to the mother, (which they did at that time) and therefore the knowledge that she would be given custody of her children, only to have her own mother back her ex husband, for her own purposes. As always, others followed the money and labelled Frances a child deserter, a bolter and then those making money off rumour disguised as fact add to it be reporting a private conversation they could actually have no knowledge of, as fact.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 04-20-2009, 02:24 PM
sirhon11234's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 2,464
I agree Skydragon, it must have been so horrible to have your own mother testify against you in a child custody case. Lady Fermoy was nothing but a callous social climber.
Was the Spencer divorce that big in the media back then?
__________________
"I think the biggest disease the world suffers from in this day and age is the disease of people feeling unloved."
Diana, the Princess of Wales
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 04-20-2009, 02:41 PM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
Well, divorce was more rare back then and it was among the aristocracy, so it got attention, and of course the fact that Frances remarried soon after basically running off with Shand Kydd didn't help. Diana's mother shouldn't have spoken to a magazine about her, in my opinion.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 04-20-2009, 04:26 PM
georgiea's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: N/A, United States
Posts: 1,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Frances told Hello that Diana gave up the HRH, Diana wanted to portray herself as the 'poor little me victim and those nasty people took my HRH away'. To Diana, it turned the 'people' against the royals, whereas she had given it up for a larger settlement. How was her mother supposed to realise that not telling a lie, would upset her daughter so much? How could Frances have realised that Diana wanted to pretend HM was cruel and callous.
Skydragon why would a larger settlement have the HRH title removed, unless there was something there? Quote from Bradford's book: Diana's resistance, and no doubt, the unarguable fact that she had moral right on her side. paid off. Compared to the meager settlement given the Duchess of York----Diana would receive a lumps sum of L15million, plus some L400,000 a year to run her office. Diana's title would be 'Diana, Princess of Wales' and she would be 'regarded as a member of the royal Family' which made the withdrawl of the title HRH even more peculiar. I guess if you aren't there at the discussions we really can not say Diana was playing villain to the BRF.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I always felt sorry for Frances, she left her husband with the almost certain belief that judges always awarded custody to the mother, (which they did at that time) and therefore the knowledge that she would be given custody of her children, only to have her own mother back her ex husband, for her own purposes. As always, others followed the money and labeled Frances a child deserter, a bolter and then those making money off rumor disguised as fact add to it be reporting a private conversation they could actually have no knowledge of, as fact.
I felt sorry for Francis too. During her custody hearing her own mother sided with Earl Spencer (aristocratic) and label her not fit as a mother. This shows us the mechanics of Diana's family and why she did not get along with some of her own relatives. We should give Francis some slack because she was going through a bad time after her second marriage failed. It was bad luck that both Diana and her mother were going though at the same time troubles from failed marriages.

Diana, Princess of Wales' parents divorce was something that did not happen that much in the 1960's. She did feel like an outcast at boarding school. She made a close friend of another divorced girl. They could share.
__________________
Watch your actions, for they become your habits. Watch your habits because they become your character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 04-20-2009, 05:16 PM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
I agree Skydragon, it must have been so horrible to have your own mother testify against you in a child custody case. Lady Fermoy was nothing but a callous social climber.
Was the Spencer divorce that big in the media back then?
I don't recall much of what was in the papers, although as you can imagine it was the talk of the town and much as with today, what people didn't know they made up. Frances was vilified, because that is the way it was always seen, the woman had to have been at fault. The invitations dried up, other women cut her dead, 'friends' were suddenly unavailable. I remember being told of her horror and disbelief when she was refused custody.

Peter started an affair with another, younger woman, whom he married and also divorced but he never returned to his first wife.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 04-20-2009, 05:29 PM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
Skydragon why would a larger settlement have the HRH title removed, unless there was something there? ---- I guess if you aren't there at the discussions we really can not say Diana was playing villain to the BRF.
It never ceases to amaze me, the lengths people will go to to get a bigger divorce settlement.

As you say, we were not there but why would Diana have portrayed the removal of the HRH as a vicious act by the royal family, if not to garner public support for her afterlife? Why would she have fallen out with her mother for a simple statement that 'Diana gave up the title willingly', if her intentions were not to make the royal family seem mean?
Quote:
I felt sorry for Francis too. During her custody hearing her own mother sided with Earl Spencer (aristocratic) and label her not fit as a mother. This shows us the mechanics of Diana's family and why she did not get along with some of her own relatives.
The reason for that was the complete belief that they could marry Diana into the royal family, it wouldn't have mattered which brother. I am of the opinion that divorce is better than parents who shout and scream at one another and are so miserable it affects everyone around them. The Spencers was, I believe particularly bad before and after.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:13 PM
georgiea's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: N/A, United States
Posts: 1,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post

As you say, we were not there but why would Diana have portrayed the removal of the HRH as a vicious act by the royal family, if not to garner public support for her afterlife? Why would she have fallen out with her mother for a simple statement that 'Diana gave up the title willingly', if her intentions were not to make the royal family seem mean?
Because I think her mother was out of the loop at that moment of Diana's life. After her divorce Francis was very sad and calling Diana constantly for support. Can you imagine if you wanted to keep the title HRH and your mother went against your wishes publicly. They only thing I can think of was Francis was trying to save Diana's and her families face. Just like Francis did in the pass for Diana and the reporters. Diana probably frozen her mother then and there. Diana, Princess of Wales was not making the royal family seem mean - I don't think the worst of her motives. I think she deserved the HRH because let face it, her son will one day be King of England and she was his mother. How could anyone bow to her?.
__________________
Watch your actions, for they become your habits. Watch your habits because they become your character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 04-21-2009, 04:51 AM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
Because I think her mother was out of the loop at that moment of Diana's life. After her divorce Francis was very sad and calling Diana constantly for support.
Diana and her mother were in constant touch at the time of Diana's divorce, so hardly out of the loop. If you are talking about Francis ringing Diana for support during the time of Frances' divorce, I find it unlikely to be true. Boarding schools may be accommodating but even they draw a line, especially for the non fee paying parent. She may have telephoned all of her children to try to maintain contact, but I don't think it was for support.
Quote:
Can you imagine if you wanted to keep the title HRH and your mother went against your wishes publicly. They only thing I can think of was Francis was trying to save Diana's and her families face. Just like Francis did in the pass for Diana and the reporters. Diana probably frozen her mother then and there.
If Diana had said to her mother and siblings that she told them where to put the HRH, her mother may have diplomatically altered the phrasing. Once Diana was divorced, she automatically lost the HRH, her mother was perhaps trying to portray Diana in a good light.
Quote:
Diana, Princess of Wales was not making the royal family seem mean - I don't think the worst of her motives.
That is clear from your replies, what is also clear from the Morton book was Diana portraying her in laws as mean and horrible and no amount of gloss can alter that. ,
Quote:
I think she deserved the HRH because let face it, her son will one day be King of England and she was his mother. How could anyone bow to her?.
Once divorced she lost the entitlement to the HRH, why should the rules be changed for a woman who had numerous affairs and made quite clear her dislike of the establishment, her mother in law and all of her ex husbands family?

Just as a note, if the monarchy survives long enough, William will not just be King of England, apart from all the other countries if they haven't become republics, he will be King of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 04-21-2009, 07:13 AM
georgiea's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: N/A, United States
Posts: 1,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Diana and her mother were in constant touch at the time of Diana's divorce, so hardly out of the loop.
Skydragon my last reply to you on this topic. I think we both have different views on Diana, Princess of Wales and have to disagree to agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
If you are talking about Francis ringing Diana for support during the time of Frances' divorce, I find it unlikely to be true. Boarding schools may be accommodating but even they draw a line, especially for the non fee paying parent. She may have telephoned all of her children to try to maintain contact, but I don't think it was for support.
This comment of Francis Shad Kydd calling Diana was during her second divorce to Mr Shad Kydd. I have read that Francis was devastated and calling Diana all the time for support. Again just have you said: if we weren't there how do we know the truth?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
If Diana had said to her mother and siblings that she told them where to put the HRH, her mother may have diplomatically altered the phrasing. Once Diana was divorced, she automatically lost the HRH, her mother was perhaps trying to portray Diana in a good light.That is clear from your replies, what is also clear from the Morton book was Diana portraying her in laws as mean and horrible and no amount of gloss can alter that.
If again we weren't there, so how can we reply to what Diana and her mother where doing? I remember in the Morton Book that Diana was going after Prince Charles not her in-laws. Again in every book I have read it was Prince Charles she was after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Once divorced she lost the entitlement to the HRH, why should the rules be changed for a woman who had numerous affairs and made quite clear her dislike of the establishment, her mother in law and all of her ex husbands family?
This divorce of Diana, Princess of Wales was usual circumstances. The HRH in my opinion, Bradford's opinion and other Diana supporters think it was strange to leave it out because she was mother to the next heir of the BRF and other commonwealth countries, as well as part of the BRF.
__________________
Watch your actions, for they become your habits. Watch your habits because they become your character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 04-21-2009, 08:08 AM
Menarue's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cascais, Portugal
Posts: 2,155
When Diana divorced she was no longer a part of the BRF and the rules were in place and there was thought to be no reason to bend them by the people who did know Diana and did know the real story so it doesn´t matter really what anyone else thinks, it was done, she is gone and that is that.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 04-21-2009, 10:15 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,410
There is a detailed discussion in the Diana's titles thread about the negotiation between The Queen and Diana over the HRH, and why it came unstuck.
See post #495 on.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04-21-2009, 10:50 AM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
When Diana's brother Charles said at her funeral that she didn't need a title to work her particular brand of magic or something like that, I think he was right. She would have come to agree, if she didn't, had she lived, since her status with the public certainly didn't depend on her titles. But she didn't live all that long past the time of her divorce.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 04-21-2009, 11:12 AM
Menarue's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cascais, Portugal
Posts: 2,155
Well her particular brand of magic didn´t work on her brother who refused to let her have a house in the grounds of the family home.
I really can´t see Diana doing anything special with her life after the BRF, I think she would have gone on as she started to do after the divorce, don´t forget she was killed with her boyfriend (some say fiance) in a car crash.
I too, feel very sorry for Frances, as I feel that if she had got custody of her children all their lives might have been different.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 04-21-2009, 01:13 PM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
Skydragon my last reply to you on this topic. I think we both have different views on Diana, Princess of Wales and have to disagree to agree.
There is no option but to agree to disagree.
Quote:
I have read that Francis was devastated and calling Diana all the time for support. Again just have you said: if we weren't there how do we know the truth?
No we don't know for sure but knowing Frances was a strong minded person and not prone to histrionics, I find it somewhat fanciful to imagine she would telephone the daughter she struggled to understand, at a time the daughter was involved elsewhere. It is a little disconcerting to hear 'something you read somewhere' passed off as fact.
Quote:
I remember in the Morton Book that Diana was going after Prince Charles not her in-laws. Again in every book I have read it was Prince Charles she was after.
We must have read/heard about different copies. There was outrage at her portrayal of the family, so much so that Philip asked her if she had any invilvement in the book, which she emphatically denied!
Quote:
This divorce of Diana, Princess of Wales was usual circumstances. The HRH in my opinion, Bradford's opinion and other Diana supporters think it was strange to leave it out
I don't think the HRH should have been reinstated because Bradford or Diana supporters thought it should be. As Warren has pointed out there is a thread that covers this very well and if you read Jo of Palantines superb post (496), it might help you to get to the facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
I too, feel very sorry for Frances, as I feel that if she had got custody of her children all their lives might have been different
Yes I agree, although they would probably have continued to fight over them and the younger children playing one off against the other!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 04-21-2009, 01:26 PM
sirhon11234's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 2,464
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace Angel View Post
When Diana's brother Charles said at her funeral that she didn't need a title to work her particular brand of magic or something like that, I think he was right. She would have come to agree, if she didn't, had she lived, since her status with the public certainly didn't depend on her titles. But she didn't live all that long past the time of her divorce.
IMO Frances shouldn't have said anything to the press during Diana's divorce. The less said the better.
In my opinion the Princess didn't need the HRH after the divorce. She had the style of "Princess of Wales," to her name and she was still regarded as a member of the Royal Family. I always believed Diana was on her way to finding herself and her new role as a humanitarian before she died. Her work with Aids and the Landmind campaign was brilliant imo.
__________________
"I think the biggest disease the world suffers from in this day and age is the disease of people feeling unloved."
Diana, the Princess of Wales
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 04-21-2009, 03:16 PM
georgiea's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: N/A, United States
Posts: 1,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarue;924251[quote
I too, feel very sorry for Frances, as I feel that if she had got custody of her children all their lives might have been different.
Menarue this is an interesting thought about the last two Spencer kids and their personal relationships. If Mrs. Shand Kydd did get them to raise, to have a mother's love and security, maybe Diana, Princess of Wales might have stayed married to Prince Charles and alive still. And Earl Spencer married just once. Good thought.

Of topic-Was it because Francis ran away Mr. Shand Kydd that Earl Spencer got the children or was it because of his rank in society?
__________________

__________________
Watch your actions, for they become your habits. Watch your habits because they become your character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diana princess of wales, diana's family, frances shand kydd, princess diana


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Princess Diana's Daytime Fashion Part 1: November 2004 - nsewerin Royal House of Fashion 849 08-31-2014 10:00 PM
King George V (1865-1936) elenaris British Royal History 92 07-27-2014 08:26 PM
The Abdication, 11 December 1936 gaoshan1021 British Royal History 163 08-26-2012 05:02 PM
Lady Frances Armstrong Jones and Rodolphe von Hofmannsthal: Dec 2006 Heather1 Weddings: Non-Reigning Houses & Nobility 44 02-12-2011 04:39 PM
Media blackout 1936 v. today kalnel British Royals 55 11-09-2007 12:51 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge dutch royal history engagement fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jewellery jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games olympics ottoman poland prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess beatrix princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marilene princess mary princess of asturias queen anne-marie queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague visit wedding



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:44 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]