Frances Shand Kydd (1936-2004) - Diana's Mother

[CasiraghiTrio]

I think Christo's Girl might have been indicating that there were some valid comparisons between Diana and Frances, even though there were also differences. Frances married at age 18; Diana was just turned 20 when she married. Both were unhappy in their marriages, and therefore, both women were unfaithful, as they met their emotional needs elsewhere.

I doubt anyone meant to say they totally the same. I think what was meant here was simply that there were some strong similarities, and this shouldn't be surprising, given that they were mother and daughter. DNA has a powerful bearing.

 

[Duchess]

Unfortunately, Frances did not have the chance to reconcile with her own daughter after giving an interview saying she was glad her daughter had lost her HRH title.

in sarah bradford's book, which i'm reading now, it says that the reason for the final fall out between mother and daughter was not that she was glad that diana had lost the title but that frances told the interviewer that diana had been the one to give up the style HRH, not that she'd lost it. diana was very angry because she didn't want this to be public knowledge. she wanted the public to believe that BP had taken it away from her thus making it appear that they were the ones to blame for the mother of the future king not being an HRH.

someone correct me if i've misinterpreted it.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

in sarah bradford's book, which i'm reading now, it says that the reason for the final fall out between mother and daughter was not that she was glad that diana had lost the title but that frances told the interviewer that diana had been the one to give up the style HRH, not that she'd lost it. diana was very angry because she didn't want this to be public knowledge. she wanted the public to believe that BP had taken it away from her thus making it appear that they were the ones to blame for the mother of the future king not being an HRH.

someone correct me if i've misinterpreted it.

It may be so that Diana wanted to use this thing as a way to acquire more public sympathy. I don't know. But what bothers me is the idea that she had an option to keep her HRH. I don't understand how she can be divorced from the royal family and still maintain royal status. What I can understand is possibly her being restored to HRH by her son when he is King William, because if she had not died, then william becoming king makes her the King's Mother. It seems appropriate for the King to restore his mother to HRH status. However, at the time of Diana's divorce, she was just ex-wife of the Prince of Wales. For her to keep HRH status would have had implications: an HRH is a member of the Royal Family, carries out engagements on behalf of The Queen, accompanies the Family to official events, and if the HRH is an adult with own household, has an income from the Civil List. Most of these things ceased to apply to Diana. She carried out her own engagements after the divorce, no longer representing her ex-husband or The Queen. She only accompanied her sons and Prince Charles to certain events involving her sons or having some connection to their married life. She did not have any Civil List income. She, in short, ceased to be a working part of the "firm", but rather became her own entity. She lived and worked for Diana, according to what was important to Diana. So I fail to see how a private individual, especially an ex-spouse, can be an HRH.

 

[Duchess]

i totally agree Casiraghi. this whole story is the "other side of the coin" to the duchess of windsor scenario but that's a whole other thread.

 

[Myriam]

in sarah bradford's book, which i'm reading now, it says that the reason for the final fall out between mother and daughter was not that she was glad that diana had lost the title but that frances told the interviewer that diana had been the one to give up the style HRH, not that she'd lost it. diana was very angry because she didn't want this to be public knowledge. she wanted the public to believe that BP had taken it away from her thus making it appear that they were the ones to blame for the mother of the future king not being an HRH.

someone correct me if i've misinterpreted it.

With all my respect to diana's memory but her mother was a real victim of her daughter's anger. Diana wanted everything just like she wanted and she thought others were there to obbey her (including her mother, Frances).
Can everyone tell me if Frances had a good relationship with her other daughters and son?

 

[Duchess]

i agree with you myriam. i think frances was telling the truth when she spoke to the interviewer but diana didn't want the public to know the truth about this particular situation so she froze her mother out. i can say i've ever read anything regarding her relationships with her other children.

i've always felt sorry for frances. she was called a "bolter" but in my opinion she was forced out of the lives of her children. after the miscarriage of baby johnnie she was, at one point, locked in her room and later made to endure all sorts of tests to determine "what her problem was" that she couldn't have a boy when in reality the sex of the baby is determined by the sperm. also, because her mother and viscount spencer testified against her, she didn't stand a chance of retaining custody of her children . yes, she did have an affair and that was wrong but i've always felt that she was treated very poorly but her mother AND diana.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

i totally agree Casiraghi. this whole story is the "other side of the coin" to the duchess of windsor scenario but that's a whole other thread.

Yes, true, for another thread, but I have to say just one thing: The Duchess of Windsor should have been HRH, as wife and widow of an HRH, regardless of anyone's opinion of what kind of person she was. It was her legal right and was only denied her because of petty feelings of prejudice or jealousy.

I agree about Frances! She was always regarded harshly by her children, by the media, especially by her mother. She was horribly betrayed by her mother. I know Frances made mistakes, some very serious mistakes, but she did love her children, and it's plain to see she loved all of her grandchildren too. I believe her heart was in the right place. She cheated on Diana's father, yes, but she was still a good mother and it was wrong for the kids to be taken from her as they were. There was no justification for that. They should have had a joint custody arrangement. But stupid Lady Fermoy betrayed her own daughter.

 

[pinkie40]

Every bit I learn about Frances is something that helps me understand Diana more. Perhaps Diana was the rebel she was because she saw how unhappy her mother was...and she didn't want to end up like her mother. I believe Diana's skills as a mother was due to the happy memories she had of her mother (in several of the "home movies", Frances is a loving and hands-on mother, clearly enjoying her children).

Alcoholism, physical, verbal and emotional abuse battered Frances into a woman who became a virtual recluse. Diana was probably very aware of all of these issues but there were few she could confide and turn to to vent to and ask for healing of these scars.

Diana's abandonment issues and the feelings she would provoke in her father had she attempted to press the issue to go live with her mother, made Diana a very confused and emotionally fragile person...

I think Diana saw her own family pattern within the aristocratic families of her friends. I don't think she could ask for much help from others without causing more pain. I just can say Diana was an emotional pioneer and a catalyst for women to discuss and face issues that occur both in small cottages and grand castles. We are a better society (than we were in 1981) because we can discuss dozens of more mental health issues, because of Diana's difficult plight and her extreme courage to search for herself.

 

[Grace Angel]

Maybe Diana could never forgive her mother leaving when she was a child, I think she said that she could always remember the sound of her mother's suit cases when she left, and the sound of the car leaving. That really did have an affect on her. She was always closer to her father, although she didn't like his remarriage, that was true. But in the end she did reconcile with Raine, likely because she had had a good relationship with her father in the first place. She thought Raine stole her and her siblings's place, she was always very insecure.

 

[sirhon11234]

I remember Paul Burell said in his book that Diana and her mother had a row on the phone and Frances supposedly called Diana a whore for dating a muslim man. Now if that is true, one really can't blame her for not wanting to reconcile with her mothr so soon.

 

[TheTruth]

I agree with you Sirhon. However, I think Diana should have known better than just ignoring her mother; she was aware of her drinking problems (and had been witness of it as a child) and instead of being terribly angry at her, helping her would have been more efficient. But I'm not sure we can actually tell who was right or wrong; family problems are usually very overwhelming for those involved and incomprehensible for the others.

 

[sirhon11234]

Maybe Diana did know about her mother's drinking problem but she took that insult to heart. I think she was very sensitive, its awful that Frances called Diana a whore regardless that she was drunk. Hearing your mother call you such a harsh name is really hurtful.

 

[Skydragon]

If it was in fact true. We do know that Burell alters the facts to suit whatever story he is selling and would Diana actually let the man listen in on a conversation with her mother.

 

[georgiea]

If it was in fact true. We do know that Burell alters the facts to suit whatever story he is selling and would Diana actually let the man listen in on a conversation with her mother.

"Diana" by Sarah Bradford said in her book that there was a falling out because of an interview to Hello her mother gave without Diana's consent and many calls were Francis (might be drunk) telling her daughter her behavior with men was not appropriate.

 

[Skydragon]

"Diana" by Sarah Bradford said in her book that there was a falling out because of an interview to Hello her mother gave without Diana's consent and many calls were Francis (might be drunk) telling her daughter her behavior with men was not appropriate.

I have said this before, unless Bradford was there, it is unsubstantiated, so many times we are told that A was having a private conversation with B, they were the only ones present - so how on earth could anyone know what had been said. We do not know with any certainty that Frances made many calls to Diana, where she may have been drunk or that she said Diana's affairs were inappropriate, (although as a mother I too might have asked if it was a good idea, which could be misconstrued). Parents are supposed to advise when a child's behaviour might be inappropriate, no matter how old the child.

Yes Diana was probably upset that her mother had spoken to Hello, (why would she need her daughters consent), Diana was always annoyed when someone else spoke to the media.

 

[georgiea]

I have said this before, unless Bradford was there, it is unsubstantiated, so many times we are told that A was having a private conversation with B, they were the only ones present - so how on earth could anyone know what had been said.

Yes Diana was probably upset that her mother had spoken to Hello, (why would she need her daughters consent), Diana was always annoyed when someone else spoke to the media.

Skydragon, I guess again, we have to disagree to agree. I just want to mention that there are two book sources to back up the claim about the calls and the split. Bradford backs up the claim from a named palace source that Francis wanted help from him to patch up the split.

I just want to ask this. When did Diana, Princess of Wales get annoyed when she got good press from someone else? Her mother talked to Hello about Diana losing a title and that it was good for her. Would you like that made public by your own mother? Skydragon, Diana did have a black and white personality and dropped people, but I sometimes see her as a victim of bad fate.

 

[Skydragon]

Skydragon, I guess again, we have to disagree to agree. I just want to mention that there are two book sources to back up the claim about the calls and the split. Bradford backs up the claim from a named palace source that Francis wanted help from him to patch up the split.

And yet, as I said, how could anyone be privy to what was being said on a telephone where it would only be possible to hear one side of the conversation, at best. People tend to say 'ahh but it is written in two books, three books', without realising that many authors 'borrow' rumours from one anothers books, where it becomes 'fact'.

I just want to ask this. When did Diana, Princess of Wales get annoyed when she got good press from someone else? Her mother talked to Hello about Diana losing a title and that it was good for her.

Frances told Hello that Diana gave up the HRH, Diana wanted to portray herself as the 'poor little me victim and those nasty people took my HRH away'. To Diana, it turned the 'people' against the royals, whereas she had given it up for a larger settlement. How was her mother supposed to realise that not telling a lie, would upset her daughter so much? How could Frances have realised that Diana wanted to pretend HM was cruel and callous.

I always felt sorry for Frances, she left her husband with the almost certain belief that judges always awarded custody to the mother, (which they did at that time) and therefore the knowledge that she would be given custody of her children, only to have her own mother back her ex husband, for her own purposes. As always, others followed the money and labelled Frances a child deserter, a bolter and then those making money off rumour disguised as fact add to it be reporting a private conversation they could actually have no knowledge of, as fact.

 

[sirhon11234]

I agree Skydragon, it must have been so horrible to have your own mother testify against you in a child custody case. Lady Fermoy was nothing but a callous social climber.
Was the Spencer divorce that big in the media back then?

 

[Grace Angel]

Well, divorce was more rare back then and it was among the aristocracy, so it got attention, and of course the fact that Frances remarried soon after basically running off with Shand Kydd didn't help. Diana's mother shouldn't have spoken to a magazine about her, in my opinion.

 

[georgiea]

Frances told Hello that Diana gave up the HRH, Diana wanted to portray herself as the 'poor little me victim and those nasty people took my HRH away'. To Diana, it turned the 'people' against the royals, whereas she had given it up for a larger settlement. How was her mother supposed to realise that not telling a lie, would upset her daughter so much? How could Frances have realised that Diana wanted to pretend HM was cruel and callous.

Skydragon why would a larger settlement have the HRH title removed, unless there was something there? Quote from Bradford's book: Diana's resistance, and no doubt, the unarguable fact that she had moral right on her side. paid off. Compared to the meager settlement given the Duchess of York----Diana would receive a lumps sum of L15million, plus some L400,000 a year to run her office. Diana's title would be 'Diana, Princess of Wales' and she would be 'regarded as a member of the royal Family' which made the withdrawl of the title HRH even more peculiar. I guess if you aren't there at the discussions we really can not say Diana was playing villain to the BRF.

I always felt sorry for Frances, she left her husband with the almost certain belief that judges always awarded custody to the mother, (which they did at that time) and therefore the knowledge that she would be given custody of her children, only to have her own mother back her ex husband, for her own purposes. As always, others followed the money and labeled Frances a child deserter, a bolter and then those making money off rumor disguised as fact add to it be reporting a private conversation they could actually have no knowledge of, as fact.

I felt sorry for Francis too. During her custody hearing her own mother sided with Earl Spencer (aristocratic) and label her not fit as a mother. This shows us the mechanics of Diana's family and why she did not get along with some of her own relatives. We should give Francis some slack because she was going through a bad time after her second marriage failed. It was bad luck that both Diana and her mother were going though at the same time troubles from failed marriages.

Diana, Princess of Wales' parents divorce was something that did not happen that much in the 1960's. She did feel like an outcast at boarding school. She made a close friend of another divorced girl. They could share.

 

[Skydragon]

I agree Skydragon, it must have been so horrible to have your own mother testify against you in a child custody case. Lady Fermoy was nothing but a callous social climber.
Was the Spencer divorce that big in the media back then?

I don't recall much of what was in the papers, although as you can imagine it was the talk of the town and much as with today, what people didn't know they made up. Frances was vilified, because that is the way it was always seen, the woman had to have been at fault. The invitations dried up, other women cut her dead, 'friends' were suddenly unavailable. I remember being told of her horror and disbelief when she was refused custody.

Peter started an affair with another, younger woman, whom he married and also divorced but he never returned to his first wife.

 

[Skydragon]

Skydragon why would a larger settlement have the HRH title removed, unless there was something there? ---- I guess if you aren't there at the discussions we really can not say Diana was playing villain to the BRF.

It never ceases to amaze me, the lengths people will go to to get a bigger divorce settlement.

As you say, we were not there but why would Diana have portrayed the removal of the HRH as a vicious act by the royal family, if not to garner public support for her afterlife? Why would she have fallen out with her mother for a simple statement that 'Diana gave up the title willingly', if her intentions were not to make the royal family seem mean?

I felt sorry for Francis too. During her custody hearing her own mother sided with Earl Spencer (aristocratic) and label her not fit as a mother. This shows us the mechanics of Diana's family and why she did not get along with some of her own relatives.

The reason for that was the complete belief that they could marry Diana into the royal family, it wouldn't have mattered which brother. I am of the opinion that divorce is better than parents who shout and scream at one another and are so miserable it affects everyone around them. The Spencers was, I believe particularly bad before and after.

 

[georgiea]

As you say, we were not there but why would Diana have portrayed the removal of the HRH as a vicious act by the royal family, if not to garner public support for her afterlife? Why would she have fallen out with her mother for a simple statement that 'Diana gave up the title willingly', if her intentions were not to make the royal family seem mean?

Because I think her mother was out of the loop at that moment of Diana's life. After her divorce Francis was very sad and calling Diana constantly for support. Can you imagine if you wanted to keep the title HRH and your mother went against your wishes publicly. They only thing I can think of was Francis was trying to save Diana's and her families face. Just like Francis did in the pass for Diana and the reporters. Diana probably frozen her mother then and there. Diana, Princess of Wales was not making the royal family seem mean - I don't think the worst of her motives. I think she deserved the HRH because let face it, her son will one day be King of England and she was his mother. How could anyone bow to her?.

 

[Skydragon]

Because I think her mother was out of the loop at that moment of Diana's life. After her divorce Francis was very sad and calling Diana constantly for support.

Diana and her mother were in constant touch at the time of Diana's divorce, so hardly out of the loop. If you are talking about Francis ringing Diana for support during the time of Frances' divorce, I find it unlikely to be true. Boarding schools may be accommodating but even they draw a line, especially for the non fee paying parent. She may have telephoned all of her children to try to maintain contact, but I don't think it was for support.

Can you imagine if you wanted to keep the title HRH and your mother went against your wishes publicly. They only thing I can think of was Francis was trying to save Diana's and her families face. Just like Francis did in the pass for Diana and the reporters. Diana probably frozen her mother then and there.

If Diana had said to her mother and siblings that she told them where to put the HRH, her mother may have diplomatically altered the phrasing. Once Diana was divorced, she automatically lost the HRH, her mother was perhaps trying to portray Diana in a good light.

Diana, Princess of Wales was not making the royal family seem mean - I don't think the worst of her motives.

That is clear from your replies, what is also clear from the Morton book was Diana portraying her in laws as mean and horrible and no amount of gloss can alter that. ,

I think she deserved the HRH because let face it, her son will one day be King of England and she was his mother. How could anyone bow to her?.

Once divorced she lost the entitlement to the HRH, why should the rules be changed for a woman who had numerous affairs and made quite clear her dislike of the establishment, her mother in law and all of her ex husbands family?

Just as a note, if the monarchy survives long enough, William will not just be King of England, apart from all the other countries if they haven't become republics, he will be King of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

[georgiea]

Diana and her mother were in constant touch at the time of Diana's divorce, so hardly out of the loop.

Skydragon my last reply to you on this topic. I think we both have different views on Diana, Princess of Wales and have to disagree to agree.

If you are talking about Francis ringing Diana for support during the time of Frances' divorce, I find it unlikely to be true. Boarding schools may be accommodating but even they draw a line, especially for the non fee paying parent. She may have telephoned all of her children to try to maintain contact, but I don't think it was for support.

This comment of Francis Shad Kydd calling Diana was during her second divorce to Mr Shad Kydd. I have read that Francis was devastated and calling Diana all the time for support. Again just have you said: if we weren't there how do we know the truth?

If Diana had said to her mother and siblings that she told them where to put the HRH, her mother may have diplomatically altered the phrasing. Once Diana was divorced, she automatically lost the HRH, her mother was perhaps trying to portray Diana in a good light.That is clear from your replies, what is also clear from the Morton book was Diana portraying her in laws as mean and horrible and no amount of gloss can alter that.

If again we weren't there, so how can we reply to what Diana and her mother where doing? I remember in the Morton Book that Diana was going after Prince Charles not her in-laws. Again in every book I have read it was Prince Charles she was after.

Once divorced she lost the entitlement to the HRH, why should the rules be changed for a woman who had numerous affairs and made quite clear her dislike of the establishment, her mother in law and all of her ex husbands family?

This divorce of Diana, Princess of Wales was usual circumstances. The HRH in my opinion, Bradford's opinion and other Diana supporters think it was strange to leave it out because she was mother to the next heir of the BRF and other commonwealth countries, as well as part of the BRF.

 

[Menarue]

When Diana divorced she was no longer a part of the BRF and the rules were in place and there was thought to be no reason to bend them by the people who did know Diana and did know the real story so it doesn´t matter really what anyone else thinks, it was done, she is gone and that is that.

 

[Warren]

There is a detailed discussion in the Diana's titles thread about the negotiation between The Queen and Diana over the HRH, and why it came unstuck.
See post #495 on.

 

[Grace Angel]

When Diana's brother Charles said at her funeral that she didn't need a title to work her particular brand of magic or something like that, I think he was right. She would have come to agree, if she didn't, had she lived, since her status with the public certainly didn't depend on her titles. But she didn't live all that long past the time of her divorce.

 

[Menarue]

Well her particular brand of magic didn´t work on her brother who refused to let her have a house in the grounds of the family home.
I really can´t see Diana doing anything special with her life after the BRF, I think she would have gone on as she started to do after the divorce, don´t forget she was killed with her boyfriend (some say fiance) in a car crash.
I too, feel very sorry for Frances, as I feel that if she had got custody of her children all their lives might have been different.

 

[Skydragon]

Skydragon my last reply to you on this topic. I think we both have different views on Diana, Princess of Wales and have to disagree to agree.

There is no option but to agree to disagree.

I have read that Francis was devastated and calling Diana all the time for support. Again just have you said: if we weren't there how do we know the truth?

No we don't know for sure but knowing Frances was a strong minded person and not prone to histrionics, I find it somewhat fanciful to imagine she would telephone the daughter she struggled to understand, at a time the daughter was involved elsewhere. It is a little disconcerting to hear 'something you read somewhere' passed off as fact.

I remember in the Morton Book that Diana was going after Prince Charles not her in-laws. Again in every book I have read it was Prince Charles she was after.

We must have read/heard about different copies. There was outrage at her portrayal of the family, so much so that Philip asked her if she had any invilvement in the book, which she emphatically denied!

This divorce of Diana, Princess of Wales was usual circumstances. The HRH in my opinion, Bradford's opinion and other Diana supporters think it was strange to leave it out

I don't think the HRH should have been reinstated because Bradford or Diana supporters thought it should be. As Warren has pointed out there is a thread that covers this very well and if you read Jo of Palantines superb post (496), it might help you to get to the facts.

I too, feel very sorry for Frances, as I feel that if she had got custody of her children all their lives might have been different

Yes I agree, although they would probably have continued to fight over them and the younger children playing one off against the other!