Frances Shand Kydd (1936-2004) - Diana's Mother

[Osipi]

The Queen Mother and Lady Fermoy were people ingrained in the definite ways to behave and abhorred things that "just weren't done" or "beyond the pale" and actually their time was where the norm was that women were still "inferior" and "the weaker sex". Divorce, in and of itself, was a scandal and painted the woman with a huge stigma that people looked down their nose at. Being so above the "elite" society with being friends and confidante to the Queen Mother (royalty), Lady Fermoy, in her time, was afraid that the "taint" of scandal between Frances and Johnnie Spencer would also stick to her. She preserved her "standing" by siding with the "proper" and what was seen as the "wronged husband" in aristocratic eyes. The norm was to discreetly carry on a private life on the side and maintain respectability. Not run away from a marriage.

This has totally changed. When I divorced in the early 90s, it was me that moved away with us having joint custody of the kids with them living with dad in our marital home. Made sense and was best for the kids. He had a steady job and I'd been a stay at home mom for the entire marriage and only worked a low paying job. There would have been child support but I couldn't count on the ex assuring those payments were made. The kids were provided better for if they were with him. Nobody bat an eye at that arrangement at all.

In the Queen Mother's time, society really had a different outlook on what one was expected to do and adhere to. ?

 

[Denville]

The Queen Mother and Lady Fermoy were people ingrained in the definite ways to behave and abhorred things that "just weren't done" or "beyond the pale" and actually their time was where the norm was that women were still "inferior" and "the weaker sex". Divorce, in and of itself, was a scandal and painted the woman with a huge stigma that people looked down their nose at. Being so above the "elite" society with being friends and confidante to the Queen Mother (royalty), Lady Fermoy, in her time, was afraid that the "taint" of scandal between Frances and Johnnie Spencer would also stick to her. She preserved her "standing" by siding with the "proper" and what was seen as the "wronged husband" in aristocratic eyes. The norm was to discreetly carry on a private life on the side and maintain respectability. Not run away from a marriage.

This has totally changed. When I divorced in the early 90s, it was me that moved away with us having joint custody of the kids with them living with dad in our marital home. Made sense and was best for the kids. He had a steady job and I'd been a stay at home mom for the entire marriage and only worked a low paying job. There would have been child support but I couldn't count on the ex assuring those payments were made. The kids were provided better for if they were with him. Nobody bat an eye at that arrangement at all.

In the Queen Mother's time, society really had a different outlook on what one was expected to do and adhere to. ?

Johnny was teh wronged husband... and then Frances left him..

 

[Osipi]

Johnny was teh wronged husband... and then Frances left him..

Johnny was also reported to be abusive and that to me is unacceptable and. like I did, Frances put herself first and left him. Johnny was left because his behavior towards Frances was unacceptable. Of course, back then, domestic violence and abuse (physical and mental) wasn't talked about and was a hush-hush behind closed doors kind of thing.

No one should have to stand abuse. By anyone. Ever.

 

[Denville]

Johnny was also reported to be abusive and that to me is unacceptable and. like I did, Frances put herself first and left him. Johnny was left because his behavior towards Frances was unacceptable. Of course, back then, domestic violence and abuse (physical and mental) wasn't talked about and was a hush-hush behind closed doors kind of thing.

No one should have to stand abuse. By anyone. Ever.

There is no evidence of this...

 

[Osipi]

There is no evidence of this...

As I've said, in that time period, there wouldn't be concrete evidence (such as police reports, open discussion at the time on domestic abuse and such) because it "just wasn't done". Spouses were supposed to put up and shut up and not rock the boat. Especially if they were "people of status and means". Kept away in a closet kind of thing.

Perhaps Frances was ahead of her time and took action when it was needed. It cost her a lot in the long run but she found happiness elsewhere.

Nothing is ever as cut and dried when it comes to understanding why people did the things they did in an era we've never experienced ourselves.

 

[Denville]

As I've said, in that time period, there wouldn't be concrete evidence (such as police reports, open discussion at the time on domestic abuse and such) because it "just wasn't done". Spouses were supposed to put up and shut up and not rock the boat. Especially if they were "people of status and means". Kept away in a closet kind of thing.

Perhaps Frances was ahead of her time and took action when it was needed. It cost her a lot in the long run but she found happiness elsewhere.

Nothing is ever as cut and dried when it comes to understanding why people did the things they did in an era we've never experienced ourselves.

I thought that if people made assertions about people in this forum they were supposed to supply evidence. And Frances didn't find happiness elsewhere. her second marriage lasted some few years and ended in divorce and she became a heavy drinker...

 

[Osipi]

I thought that if people made assertions about people in this forum they were supposed to supply evidence. And Frances didn't find happiness elsewhere. her second marriage lasted some few years and ended in divorce and she became a heavy drinker...

I've read reports of abuse in a few of the Diana books I've had over the years. Can't remember exactly which ones they were at this time and I'm not going to hunt them down. There is this article which explains Frances' situation.

https://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/06/prweb136883.htm

Leaving an abusive relationship behind does not guarantee a happy life but I'm tending to think that if Frances left Johnny with abuse being any part of the reason, I would say that the woman was right in the head to do so. Society at that time didn't think so at that time.

That's what we're really looking at here. Society and how divorce (for any reason) was treated. It used to be that there were people "hire" to explicitly "catch" a couple in the act and as divorce because of adultery as a sure fire thing, it was quite a popular way back then to get one.

 

[Denville]

I've read reports of abuse in a few of the Diana books I've had over the years. Can't remember exactly which ones they were at this time and I'm not going to hunt them down. There is this article which explains Frances' situation.

https://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/06/prweb136883.htm

Leaving an abusive relationship behind does not guarantee a happy life but I'm tending to think that if Frances left Johnny with abuse being any part of the reason, I would say that the woman was right in the head to do so. Society at that time didn't think so at that time.

That's what we're really looking at here. Society and how divorce (for any reason) was treated. It used to be that there were people "hire" to explicitly "catch" a couple in the act and as divorce because of adultery as a sure fire thing, it was quite a popular way back then to get one.

Again there is no evidence and I would have said as it is quite a serious allegation, there should be some actual proof before people say this. Frances left Johnny because she had grown bored with him and he was a dull rather stupid country farmer kind of man.. and because she had fallen in love with Peter Shand Kydd. If he was indeed violent with her i would expect that Diana would have been aware of it, and would have been more sympathetic towards her mother but she wasn't all that close to her mother much of the time and clearly could never get over teh fact that her mother had left her...
And what you describe of hiring a correspondnet, while it did happen was in fact collusion and would get a divorce stopped if it was found out....Im not really sure why you bruoght it up.....

 

[Sandy345]

Diana told Settlen she saw her father hit her mother (slapped her). I think though it was in essence estrangement because Frances resented her husband taking her to many doctors to see why SHE couldnot produce a male heir. I hope one of the doctors told him the male determines the sex.

 

[Denville]

If Diana did indeed witness violence from her father to her mother I would have expected her to be more understanding of her Mother's leaving.. but IMO she never really could entirely forgive her mother for walking out

 

[Rayal]

I felt that if their was several instances of physical abuse we would have eventually heard more from the siblings, friends, other relatives, besides the one by Princess Diana. No one really knows what goes on behind close doors and too many people listen to the bull that comes out of the yellow press.

 

[Denville]

I felt that if their was several instances of physical abuse we would have eventually heard more from the siblings, friends, other relatives, besides the one by Princess Diana. No one really knows what goes on behind close doors and too many people listen to the bull that comes out of the yellow press.

I dont know for sure but I think that Dian was prone to be erratic in what she said. I don't recollect her saying that she witnessed violence but I think if she had, surely she would have been more forgiving of her mother than she was - and not quarrel with her for months before her death...
I dont know if it would have come out, now that both parents are dead... the family might want to preserve privacy on the issue..

 

[Sandy345]

I don't think Diana was prone to be "erratic." She did witness her father striking her mother. And Frances told her own story, she found it offensive for her husband to take her to doctors to see why SHE could not produce a living son, her son John died soon after birth but she was not allowed to see him before he was buried, something very traumatic to her that she did not have this closure. By the time Charles was born, they were emotionally distant. Frances lived a very lonely life at the end and was quite ill. In the Settelen tapes, Diana told of her father slapping her mother through Morton she told of Frances being taken to doctors to see why she could not have a girl, when the MAN determines the sex. Frances corroborated what Diana said. Diana was a more lenient to her mother when Ruth Fermoy turned on her, Fermoy also testified against her daughter Frances and Diana began to understand the reasons why her mother lost much custody.

 

[Denville]

I don't think Diana was prone to be "erratic." She did witness her father striking her mother. And Frances told her own story, she found it offensive for her husband to take her to doctors to see why SHE could not produce a living son, her son John died soon after birth but she was not allowed to see him before he was buried, something very traumatic to her that she did not have this closure. By the time Charles was born, they were emotionally distant. Frances lived a very lonely life at the end and was quite ill. In the Settelen tapes, Diana told of her father slapping her mother through Morton she told of Frances being taken to doctors to see why she could not have a girl, when the MAN determines the sex. Frances corroborated what Diana said. Diana was a more lenient to her mother when Ruth Fermoy turned on her, Fermoy also testified against her daughter Frances and Diana began to understand the reasons why her mother lost much custody.

Diana wasn't "lenient" to her mother. She fell out with her over a relatively small issue, and they were on non speaking terms before Diana died. If she had really understood why her mother left, because she was being physically abused, I would have thought that she would hardly get so angry with her mother that she wouldn't speak to her for months and refuse to make up an argument over Frances doing an interview.

 

[Queen Claude]

Diana herself engaged in physical violence. I also recall that in the Settelen tapes (or perhaps the Morton tapes) Diana mentioning witnessing her father strike her mother. In the tapes, again likely the Settelen tapes, she also states that she struck her father and pushed her father's second wife down the stairs.

I don't think that witnessing her father strike her mother means that she would have lifelong sympathy with her mother. Like many of her other relationships, Diana's relationship with her mother had its ups and downs.

 

[Denville]

Diana herself engaged in physical violence. I also recall that in the Settelen tapes (or perhaps the Morton tapes) Diana mentioning witnessing her father strike her mother. In the tapes, again likely the Settelen tapes, she also states that she struck her father and pushed her father's second wife down the stairs.

I don't think that witnessing her father strike her mother means that she would have lifelong sympathy with her mother. Like many of her other relationships, Diana's relationship with her mother had its ups and downs.

I know she was volatile but by that token its not alwasy easy to beleive what she said in these various tapes. And you'd think if she knew her mother was suffering marital violence she would not get so angry with her at a later stage that she'd cut off all contact for months...

 

[Grousewood]

We now know that verbal and emotional abuse is just as damaging to a person. Only a few decades ago such abuse was not given the serious attention it deserved. It is very possible that Diana's mother suffered terrible emotional and verbal abuse. Pair that with the divorce of her parents, often described as very contentious, and we can well understand the damage that was done to her emotional health. And we all know her to have been a very sensitive person, so it would have been especially hard on someone like her. But what a wonderful thing that her reaction to all of that was to shower her children with love and positive attention. Truly a remarkable person.

 

[Denville]

We now know that verbal and emotional abuse is just as damaging to a person. Only a few decades ago such abuse was not given the serious attention it deserved. It is very possible that Diana's mother suffered terrible emotional and verbal abuse. Pair that with the divorce of her parents, often described as very contentious, and we can well understand the damage that was done to her emotional health. And we all know her to have been a very sensitive person, so it would have been especially hard on someone like her. But what a wonderful thing that her reaction to all of that was to shower her children with love and positive attention. Truly a remarkable person.

And she also reacted in other ways too.. one of them was that she had a volatile relationship with her mother and with her father..and with Raine Spencer...
The Divorce between Frances adn Johnny Spencer was contentious but IMO there was no real evidence of abuse.. Im sure they quarrelled a lot and Frances was under pressure to produce a male heir.. but there was no real evidence of physical abuse and there were rows but any unhappy marriage has rows.

 

[Queen Claude]

I know she was volatile but by that token its not alwasy easy to beleive what she said in these various tapes. And you'd think if she knew her mother was suffering marital violence she would not get so angry with her at a later stage that she'd cut off all contact for months...

I disagree. Unfortunately some people who are witnesses and/or victims of violence can become violent themselves. The examples I provided came directly from Diana, there were other reports regarding her being violent towards Charles, doling out corporal punishment to her children including slapping and perhaps servants/staffers but I am not 100% if I am recalling that particular one correctly.

One of Raine's employees also told about Diana pushing Raine down the stairs. When Diana told the story she also stated that she got great satisfaction from doing it.

I don't know the degree of violence John Spencer doled out against France, it could have began and ended with the incident Diana witnessed. However, given other things, it is not inconceivable for various reasons to me that Diana witnessed her mother "suffering marital violence" as a child but still had a fraught relationship with her throughout her life.

 

[Denville]

yes Diana's behaviour was at times "physical".. I wouldn't call slapping misbehaving children "violent" but she did react physically at times to people.. but that proves that DIANA Could be violent.,.. not that her father was.
I suppose its possible that she saw her father hit her mother but still got angry with her mother at times.. but I think that her anger with her mother was fueled by her childish perception that her mother had walked out on her when she was a kid... and even when she accepted that her mother was unhappy and had felt she needed to get a divorce, she could not overcome her own childhood feeling of abandonment and betrayal.

 

[Sandy345]

Diana wasn't "lenient" to her mother. She fell out with her over a relatively small issue, and they were on non speaking terms before Diana died. If she had really understood why her mother left, because she was being physically abused, I would have thought that she would hardly get so angry with her mother that she wouldn't speak to her for months and refuse to make up an argument over Frances doing an interview.

this was not a minor issue. Her mother went to the media and talked about Diana's divorce settlement before it got settled, She was indiscreet. And it was a crucial time for Diana. The other thing was Diana's mother scolding her daughter for dating Dr. Khan,and Diana would cry over what she said according to Burrell. I do think part of it could be attributed to Frances' illness and drinking. She was more or less alone at the time. I don't blame Diana though for being angry. I think they would have made up.

It was more than Frances being interviewed, Frances should have known better and potentially could have damaged the progress Diana's lawyers were making in the settlement.

 

[Denville]

this was not a minor issue. Her mother went to the media and talked about Diana's divorce settlement before it got settled, She was indiscreet. And it was a crucial time for Diana. The other thing was Diana's mother scolding her daughter for dating Dr. Khan,and Diana would cry over what she said according to Burrell. I do think part of it could be attributed to Frances' illness and drinking. She was more or less alone at the time. I don't blame Diana though for being angry. I think they would have made up.

It was more than Frances being interviewed, Frances should have known better and potentially could have damaged the progress Diana's lawyers were making in the settlement.

no it was after teh divorce, It happened in May 1997 and Diana had been divorced for almost a year then.. so that wasn't an issue. And Diana kept up the silence and refusing to speak to her mother for months and died without having a reconcilaiton.,

 

[Sandy345]

She did reveal things that Diana never wanted revealed no matter what the timing was. It was in May 1997 so it was a matter of about 3 months. Diana probably in due course have made up with her.

 

[Denville]

She did reveal things that Diana never wanted revealed no matter what the timing was. It was in May 1997 so it was a matter of about 3 months. Diana probably in due course have made up with her.

What did she reveal? As I recall, Diana got annoyed that Frances had said that it mgiht be for the best that she lost her HRH.. That's not revealing anything that Diana wanted kept quiet.

 

[Sandy345]

Not only that she blindsided Diana and Diana did not find out until the issue appeared.

 

[Denville]

Not only that she blindsided Diana and Diana did not find out until the issue appeared.

I dont suppose Frances felt she had to ask her daughters permission to do an interview.

 

[Sandy345]

If I had been in Frances place I sure would have consulted my daughter first.

 

[TLLK]

no it was after teh divorce, It happened in May 1997 and Diana had been divorced for almost a year then.. so that wasn't an issue. And Diana kept up the silence and refusing to speak to her mother for months and died without having a reconcilaiton.,

Truly a very sad situation with mother and daughter being estranged at the time of Diana's death.

 

[Denville]

Truly a very sad situation with mother and daughter being estranged at the time of Diana's death.

Its sad but I think Diana couldn't help herself.. She was always afraid of being abandoned and left alone and while there were times wehn she got on OK with her mother, underneath it, she was bitter at her mother's betrayal as her child mind would have seen it...

 

[Sandy345]

Frances was upset at the way she was ignored after Diana died. She wanted to go and claim the body but it was too late. Nobody in the RF called her to offer condolences. And she was not allowed to view Diana's body, the coffin was not opened for her to see the body. It reminded her how she was not allowed to see her baby John after he died. Diana had a right to be upset and how was Diana to know she was going to pass on, she had no chance to reunite with her mother. Burrell said Frances would make her cry after she berated her over Diana seeing Dr. Khan. Frances was hurting also at her second husband breaking up with her and divorcing her.