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  #201  
Old 06-16-2015, 06:56 PM
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I did a search and you can follow the line back to the 1st Baron Fermoy

Edmund Burke Roche, 1st Baron Fermoy (1815-1874) - Familypedia
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  #202  
Old 06-16-2015, 07:38 PM
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There is a separate thread about Diana's ancestry...

One person researched Diana's ancestry (at least the parts that were traceable/known or the parts he wanted to trace) and IIRC it went something like 38% English, 32% Scottish, 12% Irish, 8% German, etc.

I believe she has about 1% Dutch based on my calculations.

There are several people who claim Diana had more English/Scottish ancestry but these people do not include the QEQM line with the RF.

They only compare some of Diana's Spencer line to some of Prince Philip's line and decide that Diana was more royal..... Some make assumption on the Spencer line and try to add ancestors that are not actually traceable to the Spencers to make the claim about the Spencers being more royal.
(See Diana's ancestry thread.)


Diana's Spencer line is not complete and her Roche line is nearly non-existent.

The Gill/Work line only goes back about a 100 years or less.

The Roche line includes the women that married into the family so that would include the Works/Gill...etc.

The Spencer's line would include the women who married into that family.
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  #203  
Old 06-17-2015, 01:40 AM
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Well, that is certainly a very large percentage of blood from ancestors residing in the British Isles and that, in my view, does make William and Harry more British than many of their paternal forebears. Not that it matters! A mix of nationalities is always nice and interesting.
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  #204  
Old 08-14-2016, 07:12 AM
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Is this a place where one could discuss Lady Fermoy Frances SK's mother? Because her role in Diana's life has come up recently?
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  #205  
Old 08-14-2016, 07:41 AM
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Yes. Ken Wharfe for example made reference to an insult Frances made about her once estranged mother! She's an interesting character in many ways. A Colonel's daughter who married into the minor aristocracy and was determined that her daughters marry well. Then, when they did and one marriage went sour, Frances wasn't exactly the most supportive of mothers!
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  #206  
Old 08-14-2016, 03:30 PM
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I feel that she, (Lady F) was embarrassed by Dian's turning out to be so "unroyal" and not pleasing the RF as Charles' wife.. there are rumours, not sure how true that she "knew Diana was mentally unstable" and that she regreted not telling the RF that Charles should not marry her
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  #207  
Old 08-16-2016, 02:10 AM
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Yes. Ken Wharfe for example made reference to an insult Frances made about her once estranged mother! She's an interesting character in many ways. A Colonel's daughter who married into the minor aristocracy and was determined that her daughters marry well. Then, when they did and one marriage went sour, Frances wasn't exactly the most supportive of mothers!
I don't think that either Frances or her mother were particularly nice. Ruth Fermoy seems to have cared more for the RF than for her ownw grandchild, and stood by her son in law when he and Frances split up. And Frances seems to have cared more for her "onw life" than wanting to at least stay with her kids till they were older..
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  #208  
Old 08-16-2016, 02:25 AM
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The woman that should've been very supportive of Diana was her mother. Her grandmother too. A girl of 19, marrying an older man and future king, and in a very stuffy institution needed all the love and support possible. They failed Diana in many ways.
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  #209  
Old 08-17-2016, 02:53 AM
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I don't really see wy they should be supportive as such. Diana was an adult, even if she was young. She chose to marry Charles, and if it iddn't work out, I don't really believe that family support would make it wrok..
But I think that both her mother and grandmother were selfish in their ways and in Frances' situation I don't think she did that much to prepare Di for adult life.. (let her idle at school, didn't really help her learn about the sort of social life things - etiquette, organising social events etc that would be helpful for her as a married woman "in society" or particuarly as the wife of a Prince).. And Ruth Fermoy IF the story I brought up is true, seemed to regard her granddaughter as borderline unstable, and feel that she should have warned the RF off marrying her.
I hoped that someone would know how like that story about Lady F is to be true and we could discuss...
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  #210  
Old 08-17-2016, 03:08 AM
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When Diana was growing up, it still was pretty much done in the "old school" way of raising children. Boarding school, finishing school etc. These weren't families that sat down every night at the dining room table and hashed out how their day went and the ups and downs of life.

With her divorce and then subsequent marriage, I think Frances always tried to stay close with her children. With not having custody of them, visitation and just seeing her children now and then (and perhaps as frequently as she could), its not the same as being right there each day and really being inside her children's heads to know what everyday matters are going on.

Grandma and mama could have given Diana support 24/7 but by the time it was pretty much a given that Diana was in a position that she could marry Charles and become the Princess of Wales, I really doubt that, at that point, she would have listened. When someone is handed the keys to the candy store, they're not going to care who is giving them toothbrushes and toothpaste to prevent cavities but have all eyes front and center to the goodies.
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  #211  
Old 08-17-2016, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I don't really see wy they should be supportive as such. Diana was an adult, even if she was young. She chose to marry Charles, and if it iddn't work out, I don't really believe that family support would make it wrok..
But I think that both her mother and grandmother were selfish in their ways and in Frances' situation I don't think she did that much to prepare Di for adult life.. (let her idle at school, didn't really help her learn about the sort of social life things - etiquette, organising social events etc that would be helpful for her as a married woman "in society" or particuarly as the wife of a Prince).. And Ruth Fermoy IF the story I brought up is true, seemed to regard her granddaughter as borderline unstable, and feel that she should have warned the RF off marrying her.
I hoped that someone would know how like that story about Lady F is to be true and we could discuss...
Family love and support do make a difference, Denville. Diana didn't have any support. Although Diana was an adult, the life she married into was bigger than her. Frances should've been there for her young daughter. One can't marry into a family like that without having some proper support.


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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
When Diana was growing up, it still was pretty much done in the "old school" way of raising children. Boarding school, finishing school etc. These weren't families that sat down every night at the dining room table and hashed out how their day went and the ups and downs of life.

With her divorce and then subsequent marriage, I think Frances always tried to stay close with her children. With not having custody of them, visitation and just seeing her children now and then (and perhaps as frequently as she could), its not the same as being right there each day and really being inside her children's heads to know what everyday matters are going on.

Grandma and mama could have given Diana support 24/7 but by the time it was pretty much a given that Diana was in a position that she could marry Charles and become the Princess of Wales, I really doubt that, at that point, she would have listened. When someone is handed the keys to the candy store, they're not going to care who is giving them toothbrushes and toothpaste to prevent cavities but have all eyes front and center to the goodies.
She would've listened to those who had her best interest at heart. Diana was left to sink or swim on her own. If she had the proper guidance, things could've been a little different for her.

Perhaps Frances thought things would work it's self out, but her daughter was young and inexperienced. Also, the stiff, starchy and formal institution she married into wasn't a big help in those days.
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  #212  
Old 08-17-2016, 03:58 AM
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Frances wasn't really around during the period when Charles was first showing a strong interest in Diana (before the engagement.) I believe the Shand Kydds took off for Australia and a sheep station, in order to make a new start for themselves.

The reason I'm pointing this out is -- If I had married at 18 and had a pretty miserable marriage buried in the depths of Norfolk to a country bred man twelve years older with whom I'd had little in common --and decades later my 19 year old youngest daughter had come to me and stated that a traditional countryman twelve years older than herself (albeit the POW) was interested and wasn't it wonderful etc ---I would have suggested a nice long trip somewhere for her, for about twelve months!

Did Frances ever think to herself, I wonder, "This is history repeating itself! No, No No!"

I have read and can't remember where, that young Frances was a very vivacious spontaneous person like her father, while her mother Ruth was quite reserved and straitlaced and the two weren't close.

Ruth however (according to what I remember reading) was terribly socially ambitious for her girls, and while the older, extremely tall and not very good looking, daughter did marry an aristocrat, Ruth's hopes were centred on the very pretty Frances. John Althorp was practically engaged to Lady Ann Coke when Frances, then still at school at about 17, kept appearing in his vicinity at every available opportunity. If Ruth Fermoy was prepared to do that (and I've no doubt she was the driving force) then I wouldn't think there'd be too much she'd balk at, quite frankly!
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  #213  
Old 08-17-2016, 04:21 AM
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there are stories that Frances DID say to Diana "are you sure you're not marrying him for who he is".. but if she did say that, it seems to me that it was rather "blah" and half hearted.
I don't think she cared much, honestly. I think she liked being the Mother of the Princess esp when Di was super popular, but I get a vibe she was more concerned about herself and her own life and needs. So I doubt if she did say anything to Diana. She later said (it is quoted in Tina B's book) that she believed in " maternal redundancy, that a young couple didn't want wifes mum hanging around", so I think that was an implication that she didn't intend to be around much with Di and Charles..
I think she was very much wrapped up in herself and not willing either before or after the marriage to be there for Di. I think that there is something to be said for a mother not being around too much with a married couple but I do fault her for her selfishness while Di was younger. I think that she cared more to get her new husband than to stay with her kids while they were still young.. I think that Johnny S would have over looked an affair, and she could have remaind with him for some more time, and been there for the children.
and yes the Spencer family like many other upper class ones was more formal than today's families but still there is a sort of obligation for a socialite mother to at least train her daugthers sutaibly so tat they can handle themselves when they get married.. esp if they marry someone socially prominent, like a Prince or an ambassador or the like. And I think that Frances didn't really try to do that very hard. Di didn't do well at school, and wasn't pushed. She didn't apparently learn about the social side of life, and that was really more of a mothers role than her father's.. SHe went to finishing school but came home after half a term, and there she might have learned the "society" stuff that she didn't know. But her parents let her do this.. and didn't seem to try and equip her for adult life very well at all.
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  #214  
Old 08-17-2016, 04:36 AM
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I believe that Ruth Fermoy told Jonathon Dimbleby that she had experienced doubts before the Royal wedding about the compatibility of the couple, and Diana's capacity to fit in with the Royal Mob. So I expect her remarks are in Dimbleby's biography of Prince Charles, properly footnoted, I expect.
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  #215  
Old 08-17-2016, 04:43 AM
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I believe that Ruth Fermoy told Jonathon Dimbleby that she had experienced doubts before the Royal wedding about the compatibility of the couple, and Diana's capacity to fit in with the Royal Mob. So I expect her remarks are in Dimbleby's biography of Prince Charles, properly footnoted, I expect.
But that's what she said years later when the marriage had failed. I wonder if she really said what she's supposed to have, that she knew Di was unstable and wished that she had spoken up sooner.. (and according to a post recently _sorry I can't remember the name of the poster) Ruth is said to have spoken to Johnny Spencer about this, and He replied that if they tired to stop the marriage Diana would be awful and give them hell...
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  #216  
Old 08-17-2016, 05:22 AM
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One thing I remember reading is when Charles did propose to Diana, he wanted to give her time to think it all over and decide if she really wanted to take him on. It was then, I believe, that Diana did head to Australia and her mom's place there for 1-2 weeks. I don't remember the length of time. I would imagine that they had some serious heart to heart talks then but we'll never know exactly what was said.

I don't think anyone is ever totally prepared to step into married life. It really is a huge change just for us ordinary mortals let alone have the onus of the Royal Fishbowl where the walls are glass and everybody is watching. It would have been better I think if both Charles and Diana could have lived together for a year before deciding on marriage and family but that just wasn't the way things were done at that time.
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  #217  
Old 08-17-2016, 05:46 AM
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One thing I remember reading is when Charles did propose to Diana, he wanted to give her time to think it all over and decide if she really wanted to take him on. It was then, I believe, that Diana did head to Australia and her mom's place there for 1-2 weeks. I don't remember the length of time. I would imagine that they had some serious heart to heart talks then but we'll never know exactly what was said.

I wasn't the way things were done at that time.
realy I doubt that Frances said very much.. I think she was quite pleased to see her daughter making such a grand marriage and other than that, she didn't really care.. Later she intimated that she didn't think it was a good idea, that the RF were not nice, that she didn't like Charles etc etc... but I dotn believe at the time she thought that.
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  #218  
Old 08-17-2016, 11:28 AM
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Let's face it, none of us were there at the time. After a marriage fails horribly, in full view of the British public, there are always those with the 20/20 vision of hindsight who then come out and state, wringing their hands 'I knew this would end in tears...completely unsuited...disaster waiting to happen...said so to ---- (fill in the blanks) at the time', etc, etc.

As far as I can tell, apart from Penny Romsey and her husband, (who drew Charles's ire in raising doubts) everyone in Charles's circle thought Diana was a sweet girl who would fit in well. The people in Diana's life seem to have been equally delighted, and thought all would go swimmingly. Lady Fermoy surely wouldn't have confided in her old friend the QM that she thought her granddaughter was unequal to the task of becoming Prss of Wales.

Nor do I get the impression, from the little I've read about Lady Fermoy's character, that she would have been rushing up to Althorp to tell Johnny Spencer that she thought his daughter was unbalanced and unfit, nor, even if she had, would he say, IMHO, 'Well, we can't stop her when she's got her eye on something blah, blah.' and just sit there waiting for calamity to unfold. I think he was proud of and delighted in Diana, that she was in love, that it was a spectacular marriage, and that she would do the Spencers proud.

In short, I don't believe that conversation between Ruth and Johnny ever took place. I don't know where that poster got it from. I've read tons of books about Diana and never come across it, unless I've been blind! I have a strong suspicion that it might have come from a tabloid article or one of the works of fiction that Lady Colin Campbell or someone of that ilk is fond of churning out (and if that woman wrote that the sky was blue I'd have to go and check for myself!)

I believe that Ruth Fermoy was devastated at the failure of Charles and Diana's marriage. There had been rumours (untrue) that she and the QM had cooked up the match between them, and by the time of the Dimbleby book she wanted to create the impression, IMHO, that far from pushing the match she had experienced doubts about it at the beginning.

In fact, AFAIK, she just made a remark to her granddaughter at the time that she felt that the Royal family's way of life and sense of humour was very different to their own and may not suit her. A very true remark as it happens, but subtle, mild and hardly likely to put off a 19year old in love.
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  #219  
Old 08-17-2016, 11:43 AM
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I'm sure I've read the basic of the story before, in that Lady F is said to have felt that Diana was a fruit loop and that she was totally unsuited to the RF and that she later regretted not telling them that C should not marry her.
But I totally don't believe that John Spencer would have said anyything like that, I agree, he was a loving father, and while he and Di had their rows, he was very proud of her having gotten the POW.. and he wouldn't have WANTED to stop such a marriage. And I dotn believe he'd say to anyone (even if it were true), "if we try and stop her doing anyting she will give us hell".
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  #220  
Old 08-17-2016, 02:52 PM
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After suffering a severe stroke in 1978, most likely Johnny Spencer's thoughts were more on his health, his wife and their day to day life than to focus on his daughter's choices. She was 19, living on her own and very capable of making up her own mind when it came to making decisions. It was really, when we look at it, quite a whirlwind courtship and a decision reached too hastily. People close to Diana had very little time to realize their opinions of how the marriage might be before all was said and done and set in stone.
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