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  #181  
Old 06-14-2015, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Ronald Reagan's funeral was the same day as Frances Shand-Kydd's? Well that's serendipity.

Because Charles would not have been welcome or wanted at his former mother-in-law's service. That's for certain.

Shand Kydd diaries call Royals 'brats and bitches' - The Scotsman
Something about that article doesn't add up to me. Given even the little bit I have read about Frances Shand-Kydd, was she someone who would have expressed herself in that way? The give-away is the strange comment about nuns and priests. This does not seem in keeping with who she was. I could be wrong, of course.

Sadly, 'brats and bitches' could be applied to individuals far closer to home for Frances than the Royal Family. Very strange comments imo.
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  #182  
Old 06-14-2015, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
Moonmaiden23,

I do not believe this is true. Charles was at Ronald Reagan's funeral and could not be at two places at one time.

The Spencers and the Roches chased after the Royal Family. It would be the BRF that probably wished it had never laid eyes on the Spencers and Roches.

While parts of the BRF probably certainly wish that Diana hadn't married into the family (in as much as one can while still loving her son's and grandchildren), I don't doubt that Diana's mother didn't feel similarly. Regardless of whoever is to "blame" for their marriage problems I wouldn't be surprised if Frances came to the conclusion that Diana's life may have been happier had she not married Charles. I don't think any parent wants their child to have the kind of misery that Diana experienced in her personal life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Ronald Reagan's funeral was the same day as Frances Shand-Kydd's? Well that's serendipity.

Because Charles would not have been welcome or wanted at his former mother-in-law's service. That's for certain.

Shand Kydd diaries call Royals 'brats and bitches' - The Scotsman

Reagan's funeral was the day after.

I kind of question the validity of some of those quotes, although I do agree with the idea that Charles probably wouldn't have been welcome at Frances' funeral. Based on the Spencer behaviour at Diana's funeral, I don't think Charles was entirely welcome at her funeral, let alone her mother's.
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  #183  
Old 06-14-2015, 01:50 AM
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The Spencer's and Windsor's have been welcomed into each other presence several times in recent years. The Queen invited Lord and Lady Spencer to her 80th Birthday service at St. George's. Charles embraced Lady Jane Fellowes at an engagement several years back, and they see each other at the Order of Merit service and receptions.

I'm sure things were hard on both families when Charles and Diana was going through their private problems, but that's in the past that they no longer dwell on.
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  #184  
Old 06-14-2015, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
While parts of the BRF probably certainly wish that Diana hadn't married into the family (in as much as one can while still loving her son's and grandchildren), I don't doubt that Diana's mother didn't feel similarly. Regardless of whoever is to "blame" for their marriage problems I wouldn't be surprised if Frances came to the conclusion that Diana's life may have been happier had she not married Charles. I don't think any parent wants their child to have the kind of misery that Diana experienced in her personal life.

I quite agree Ish.

It's all so sad to me. Two essentially flawed but decent people who simply should never have married, but just remained friends. So much grief and misery could have been avoided.







[Sadly, 'brats and bitches' could be applied to individuals far closer to home for Frances than the Royal Family. Very strange comments imo]//quote

Lady Nimue,

Truer words have rarely been spoken...the Spencers, Roches and Fermoys sound like a nightmare. Glamour, beauty, bluest of blood...but toxic, dysfunctional and oh! so unhappy!

Still, I do understand Frances' bitterness...tinged as it must have been with guilt after the tragic loss of her youngest daughter.

She had a well publicized drinking problem. The last years of Diana's life, her relationship with Frances was strained because when Frances was in her cups she could be quite ugly. Diana stopped speaking to her mother because of comments Mrs. Shand-Kydd made about Diana's relationships with Muslim men.

So....yes. I can totally believe that Frances made the quotes that are attributed to her in that article.
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  #185  
Old 06-14-2015, 03:29 AM
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Ah, Moonmaiden, I didn't know about the drinking. Okay. That changes a lot. Puts a different color to Diana, too, if she was dealing with an alcoholic parent. I'm not that well-read in this area and had never heard of a drinking problem. Very sad.
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  #186  
Old 06-14-2015, 03:49 AM
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I think Mrs. Shand-Kydd began drinking heavily after Peter, her second husband, walked out on her and divorced her.

Just imagine. Frances had lost everything...her children, her standing in society, her status as Countess Spencer, to run off with Peter in the 1960's. Then later he was out of there and she was left to face the prosaic truth of her life...a lonely middle age and golden years. She was estranged from her mother Lady Fermoy and not particularly close to her own children.

She converted to Catholicism and took increasing consolation in her Faith... and in the bottle.

It's a very sad story. She had been a striking, vibrant woman in her youth.
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  #187  
Old 06-14-2015, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
[Sadly, 'brats and bitches' could be applied to individuals far closer to home for Frances than the Royal Family. Very strange comments imo]//quote

Lady Nimue,

Truer words have rarely been spoken...the Spencers, Roches and Fermoys sound like a nightmare. Glamour, beauty, bluest of blood...but toxic, dysfunctional and oh! so unhappy!

She had a well publicized drinking problem.

So....yes. I can totally believe that Frances made the quotes that are attributed to her in that article.
The red definitely describes Frances' children rather than the RF.

The Roches is the family name. Fermoy is only the title.

Where are you getting glamour, beauty and bluest of blue?

The War of the Roches made the War of Wales look tame.

Roche/Work/Gill family could fill a novel with all their escapades.

Pick a generation and there is scandal.

1880s Divorce that crossed two continents that continued into the next decade.
1890s Drunk went to police claiming a cross dresser had robbed him. When police went back to talk him he had skipped town leaving behind a lot of unpaid IOUs..
1890s Custody battle and a liar claiming he did not know he was divorced.
1900s A media storm when one side says they are married but the other side has no knowledge.
1900s Abandons disabled spouse.
1910s Breaking up a marriage and chasing married women rather than serving their country during WWI.
1920s Lying on passports and immigration applications.
1930s Fathering children with his married mistress and abandoning his children

Frances was married and divorced twice. Her sister was married and divorced three times.

What were the circumstances for the each of the divorces of Mary Roche?

...

AFAIK, Frances has only one incident with drinking.
Was this problem caused by drinking or by her illness or medication?
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  #188  
Old 06-14-2015, 05:02 AM
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Queen Camilla...the glamour, beauty and blue blood of the Roches and Spencers is my opinion of them, an opinion which is shared by others.

You are obviously free to disagree.
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  #189  
Old 06-14-2015, 05:21 AM
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It is clear that the late Hon. Mrs Frances Shand Kydd, formerly Viscountess Althorp born the Hon. Frances Burke Roche, has had an eventful life. "Born with a silver spoon in her mouth" and with all options in life open for her, she did not make the best of it. All by all it was a relatively tragic life, seeing the many opportunities she had.
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  #190  
Old 06-14-2015, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Queen Camilla...the glamour, beauty and blue blood of the Roches and Spencers is my opinion of them, an opinion which is shared by others.

You are obviously free to disagree.
How can the Roches/Works/Gills be blue bloods?

After about four generations most of Frances' family tree is missing. If she was a blue blood her ancestry would be traceable going back several centuries.

Frances is a descendant of a servant. Eliza Kewark was a servant and possibly descendant from a slave.

I always thought Harry looks like he has some African features and the first time I saw a picture of Ruth Gill I thought that couldn't be Ruth because the woman in the photo was of mixed ancestry.

The British brought African slaves to India and their descendant married into the local population, so it is possible that Eliza Kewark had African ancestry.
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  #191  
Old 06-15-2015, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I think Mrs. Shand-Kydd began drinking heavily after Peter, her second husband, walked out on her and divorced her.

Just imagine. Frances had lost everything...her children, her standing in society, her status as Countess Spencer, to run off with Peter in the 1960's. Then later he was out of there and she was left to face the prosaic truth of her life...a lonely middle age and golden years. She was estranged from her mother Lady Fermoy and not particularly close to her own children.

She converted to Catholicism and took increasing consolation in her Faith... and in the bottle.

It's a very sad story. She had been a striking, vibrant woman in her youth.
Thank you for the context, Moonmaiden. I knew none of that.
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  #192  
Old 06-15-2015, 10:47 AM
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How can the Roches/Works/Gills be blue bloods?

After about four generations most of Frances' family tree is missing. If she was a blue blood her ancestry would be traceable going back several centuries.

Frances is a descendant of a servant. Eliza Kewark was a servant and possibly descendant from a slave.

I always thought Harry looks like he has some African features and the first time I saw a picture of Ruth Gill I thought that couldn't be Ruth because the woman in the photo was of mixed ancestry.

The British brought African slaves to India and their descendant married into the local population, so it is possible that Eliza Kewark had African ancestry.
Not African, Partly Indian and from many generations back.

William's Indian ancestry: DNA tests show future monarch has clear genetic line to the country from his mother's side | Daily Mail Online
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  #193  
Old 06-15-2015, 11:34 PM
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I acknowledged that Frances had Indian DNA but she could also have had African DNA.

The DNA test was not a complete Admixture. They were looking specifically to see if the family had Indian DNA.

Eliza was living/born in India so the person was only interested in her Indian DNA.
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  #194  
Old 06-16-2015, 03:30 AM
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Oh for goodness sake what does it matter? We are all the same whatever our race one is not better than another. I get that you hate anything or anyone connected to Diana but really ! As the words to that Disney song goes ..let it go


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  #195  
Old 06-16-2015, 05:17 AM
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Well who knows how many blood lines are 'pure' aka without children of other fathers (remember the Richard III Dna test and the Beaufort?) or commoner mothers. Trying to let Frances look unsuitable because there might be black blood is obnoxious.
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  #196  
Old 06-16-2015, 03:10 PM
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There is nothing unsuitable about being of mixed ancestry.

I was only pointing out that Frances ancestry was not traceable so she was not a blue blood.
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  #197  
Old 06-16-2015, 04:13 PM
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There is nothing unsuitable about being of mixed ancestry.

I was only pointing out that Frances ancestry was not traceable so she was not a blue blood.
Heu... The Honourable Frances Burke Roche had blue blood as she was the daughter of the 4th Baron Fermoy, a granddaughter of the 3rd Baron Fermoy, a great-granddaughter of the 1st Baron Fermoy, elevated in the Peerage of Ireland in 1856, so I would say, in any way the blue blood from the Fermoy side is traceable.
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  #198  
Old 06-16-2015, 04:36 PM
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I wonder if the Fermoy's had any Irish heritage?
They lived in County Cork and many are buried there,the title was in the Irish Peerage.The surnames of Burke and Roche are quite common in Ireland but are of Norman origin.
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  #199  
Old 06-16-2015, 06:39 PM
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I believe Frances is quoted as saying she was Scottish, Irish and American but not English.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:43 PM
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I seem to remember reading that William and Harry had more Scottish (and English) blood than the royal family had had in some time....due to Diana's family and the Queen Mother's line.

But I've not traced it myself.



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