Frances Shand Kydd (1936-2004) - Diana's Mother

[Osipi]

Frances did have access to the children, she didn't have full custody but that wasn't unusual at the time for a wife who had left her husband and was the guilty party in terms of adultery.

and given that there were fewer ground for divorce In those days it wasn't unknown for there to be claims made that weren't strictly true. For example, divorces esp In the 20s and 30s were often collusive (although this was forbidden ad if found out could stop a divorce), with the husband "assuming guilt" and "being discovered in bed wit a woman" so that he could be divorced for adultery.
Frances was the guilty party in terms of adultery and she may have countered with an accusation about cruelty...
and Frances did move away to somewhere that it wasn't easy for the children to vist as often, Johnny shut himself up and kept the children at a distance.. so as time passed both parnets were less avaialbe for the children.
I don't think that the children's welfare and happiness were the paramount concerns for either of them, they were mainly being selfish...

I think too that at the time of Johnnie and Frances' divorce, in the upper circles, it was unusual for the parents to do a whole lot of parenting themselves. Children were to be seen and not heard and mostly in the care of the nanny. There weren't family dinners around the table. There weren't parents helping their kids with their homework (before sending them off to boarding school) and for the main part, the children were to be enjoyed when the right situation arose and of course, the all important heir to the title must be procured.

Neither Frances or Johnnie were the "hands on" kind of parents for the most part but I do think they both loved their children dearly.

 

[Denville]

thats not the point. Of course they had nannies and didn't spend long periods with the children, but Johnny saw little of them and Frances when she lived in London used to get emotional during their visits but then went off to Scotland where it wasn't so easy to visit.
I'm sure they'd say that they loved them, in practice I think they loved themselves more. Johnny emerged from seclusion to marry a woman that his kids disliked and caused more turmoil in the family... Frances IMO could have maintained her marriage for a bit longer, I think J would have overlooked a discreet affair, but she preferred to take the chance that she would lose custody, in order to marry her second husband

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I agree Denville, nannies are not the issue. I've read where it was claimed that Johnnie was kind of a lazy father, not standoffish he just didn't take an interest in much to do about his kids, at least not the younger ones. I don't doubt he loved them but he didn't seem to want to spend the time to guide them.

 

[Denville]

well lazy I'd expect. I wouldn't expect him to get involved in childcare, or even not to send them to boarding school. But it seems as if he became very reclusive after Frances' departure, and probably rebuffed the children's attenpts to look for a bit of comfort and consolation from him.
Its said that Diana used to follow him round and try to do little things for him like make hm cups of tea, clearly the poor child was lonely and frightened and wanting to "look after" her dad thinking that he too was lonely. Perhaps he just wasn't bright enough to realise that. He did spoil them with material things but he seems to have let nannies come and go, let the kids play them up and then move on to another one. not make any effort to make up to the 2 younger ones for their mothers disappearance from their daily lives. And Frances, its said would get very emotional when the children visited her and upset them, and Diana would cry when they were going home saying that her mother was "all alone without them". When it would be pointed out to her that her mother had her husband to keep her company, I don't think anyone realised that SHE was the one who was alos lonely without her mother.
but gradauly it seems like Frances moved to Scotland and was less accessbile. Diana went ot school and adjusted up to a point but I think she could never quite forgive or forget her Mohter leaving and then upsetting her... and when she was going through her problems in later life, and Frances was an alcoholic, she was on a hair trigger, ready to flare up at her mother.. and had that big row...

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Do you believe that Frances was somewhat shocked when Diana told her mother she was engaged? By shocked I refer to a happily surprised definition.

 

[Curryong]

It depends on how much confiding (presumably by phone most of the time) that Diana did regarding that short courtship. I would imagine that Frances was kept in the loop regarding the progress and so wasn't too shocked.

According to Tina Brown's bio of Diana she had concerns. It seems to have reminded Frances a bit too much of her own relationship with Johnny, at that time Viscount Althorp, that progressed through to marriage. A very young bride, not that much in common, a large age gap etc. The great difference of course was that they were both in love when they married, and Frances wasn't marrying into a job and completely different way of life.

 

[Denville]

Why wold she be shocked?? the whoel world knew that Diana and Charles were courting. Even if Diana wasn't in touch with her mother, it was all over the news. And Di was in touch, and had visited her during the courtship period, in Australia, so I hardly think it could be any kind of surprise to her....

 

[wyevale]

I'm not sure if this has ever been raised here, but in English Society at the time Diana Spencer was widely considered to have been fathered by James Goldsmith [later Sir James], who is known to have had a long standing relationship with Frances Shand-Kydd [then Countess Spencer].
Later it was said that there affair began after the birth of Diana [perhaps to 'save face' for Earl Spencer].

Nevertheless the resemblance between the late Princess, and the Goldsmith Siblings -Jemima - [Khan] and Zac Goldsmith is STRIKING..

My Mother [who was in that circle] mentioned this the other day, saying it was widely held to be true in London in the early 60s...

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Whether it's true or not, the Earl is known to have adored his youngest daughter and was immensely proud of her.

Her good-bye note to "Darling Daddy" that she wrote after his death brings me to tears even today when I read it.

Many believe that she was his favorite.

 

[wyevale]

Many believe that she was his favorite.

Many, MANY Parents find it within themselves to love children not biologically 'theirs'.
It has long been the case that Aristocrats accept any child born to their wives 'as their own', and [generally] that has only been difficult if that child [a boy] is the heir..

 

[Blog Real]

I'm not sure if this has ever been raised here, but in English Society at the time Diana Spencer was widely considered to have been fathered by James Goldsmith [later Sir James], who is known to have had a long standing relationship with Frances Shand-Kydd [then Countess Spencer].
Later it was said that there affair began after the birth of Diana [perhaps to 'save face' for Earl Spencer].

Nevertheless the resemblance between the late Princess, and the Goldsmith Siblings -Jemima - [Khan] and Zac Goldsmith is STRIKING..

My Mother [who was in that circle] mentioned this the other day, saying it was widely held to be true in London in the early 60s...

I did not know that story. Thanks for the info.

 

[Blog Real]

Whether it's true or not, the Earl is known to have adored his youngest daughter and was immensely proud of her.

Her good-bye note to "Darling Daddy" that she wrote after his death brings me to tears even today when I read it.

Many believe that she was his favorite.

Truth. And Count Spencer was very pleased with Diana's marriage to the Prince of Wales.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Many, MANY Parents find it within themselves to love children not biologically 'theirs'.
It has long been the case that Aristocrats accept any child born to their wives 'as their own', and [generally] that has only been difficult if that child [a boy] is the heir..

I don't doubt that you are correct wyevale, but I am curious about why the paternity of the long dead Princess of Wales is being speculated about now, and in this thread.

The principals are all gone...Sir James, Frances Shand-Kydd, Lord Johnnie Spencer and of course the Princess herself are not here to refute or confirm this claim, not that they would do either even if they could.

Just like the never ending rumour that the Duke of York was sired by Lord Porchester, and Prince Harry by that red haired guy whose name I can't be bothered to remember, this kind of speculation is unsavory, pointless and really not anyones' business.

 

[Curryong]

I find that rumour hard to believe, though I have heard it before. Yes, Diana and Jemima had similar looks. However, Diana also had Spencer characteristics and resembled her siblings.

At the time Frances and Johnny were desperate to produce a male heir. What if Diana had been a boy, and therefore the heir? Aristocratic males were tolerant, but not that tolerant. It was usually after the heir and spare arrived that the supposed custom is that they looked the other way. And that usually happened in the days of very large families.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Excellent point Curryong...Frances would have been a very foolish woman to have played with THAT kind of fire!

 

[wyevale]

being speculated about now, and in this thread.

Merely because Jemima Khan's ex hubby has just been elected PM in Pakistan, and she came up in conversation -
"You know many believe Diana was her half-Sister, and I think it was true." ?
I posted it here because this is the place to discuss the character of Frances Shand-Kydd.
As for the suitability of the comment- if it is deemed inappropriate doubtless the mods will remove it, but 'one cannot libel the Dead'...

 

[Tarlita]

I am not sure what to believe. But i have always believed that Diana does not look anything like her siblings.
However, I can definately see a resemblance with Zac & Jemima. A lot more so than her Spencer siblings.

 

[Osipi]

To me, it doesn't matter one iota anymore who were Diana's biological parents. Johnnie or James? That secret has gone to the grave with all of the people that were primarily involved in it.

We're living in a world now that has the terms "baby mama" and "baby daddy" that has become commonplace. Even within my grandchildren's constructed families.

It definitely didn't seem to have any adverse effect on Diana's upbringing nor the person that she turned out to be. She adored Johnnie as her father and it seemed that he also adored her as his daughter. That's what matters in the long run.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I'm not sure if this has ever been raised here, but in English Society at the time Diana Spencer was widely considered to have been fathered by James Goldsmith [later Sir James], who is known to have had a long standing relationship with Frances Shand-Kydd [then Countess Spencer].
Later it was said that there affair began after the birth of Diana [perhaps to 'save face' for Earl Spencer].

Nevertheless the resemblance between the late Princess, and the Goldsmith Siblings -Jemima - [Khan] and Zac Goldsmith is STRIKING..

My Mother [who was in that circle] mentioned this the other day, saying it was widely held to be true in London in the early 60s...

For 20 years Zac's (and Diana's - if true) cousin Clio Goldsmith was married to Mark Shand, the late brother of HRH The Duchess of Cornwall...

 

[Kataryn]

I am not sure what to believe. But i have always believed that Diana does not look anything like her siblings.
However, I can definately see a resemblance with Zac & Jemima. A lot more so than her Spencer siblings.

If you look through Diana's lineage from the Spencer side and through that of Lady Annabel Vane-Tempest-Stewart, you see so many relations, read about so many affairs, illegitimate children etc. I guess on the levels of Earls, Marquesses and Dukes, the British nobility share a lot of DNA.



Plus the Roche of Fermoy were an family from the Irish nobility, just like the Vanes of Londonderry, so probably the same thing, but in a much smaller pool, happened there during the 1600s to the 1900s. So it's not necessary the question of who is Diana's father but the question how many DNA do Lady Annabel's children share with the former Lady Diana Spencer.


For in a pool of cross-bred nobles, it is IMHO a lot of chance whose children resemble whom.

 

[Gawin]

I find that rumour hard to believe, though I have heard it before. Yes, Diana and Jemima had similar looks. However, Diana also had Spencer characteristics and resembled her siblings.

At the time Frances and Johnny were desperate to produce a male heir. What if Diana had been a boy, and therefore the heir? Aristocratic males were tolerant, but not that tolerant. It was usually after the heir and spare arrived that the supposed custom is that they looked the other way. And that usually happened in the days of very large families.

I agree, and so does this article from the Daily Fail, which points out Frances was hardly likely to have been conducting an affair when Diana was conceived:

Were Diana and Jemima sisters? | Daily Mail Online

 

[O-H Anglophile]

well, interesting that it is from the Daily Mail but that article threw ice water over that story, going into detail just how improbable if not impossible iy is for the speculative rumor to be true.

 

[Dman]

The wild and unfounded conspiracies about Diana and her side of the family will drive you up the wall.

 

[M. Payton]

And don't we here have another family driving us up a wall and close to being over that darn wall with the moot below....

 

[Dman]

And don't we here have another family driving us up a wall and close to being over that darn wall with the moot below....

Exactly! We’re living in a crazy time.

 

[Gawin]

It's interesting that the rumors regarding Diana's paternity didn't emerge until August 2004, two months after Frances Shand Kydd's death, when she was unable to defend herself. Or sue for libel. I was never a fan of hers but the poor woman did her best to provide the Spencers with an heir. IMO calling her integrity into question by insinuating she was willing to slip a cuckoo into the nest is disgraceful.

 

[Zonk]

Time to move on from this speculative discussion.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Frances Roche inspected wedding gifts with her mother and sister.
http://www.gettyimages.com/license/50393045

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

For me the villain of the Spencer family is Ruth Fermoy.

 

[Gawin]

For me the villain of the Spencer family is Ruth Fermoy.

She was a woman ruled by ambition.