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  #701  
Old 04-26-2011, 08:51 AM
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True good point, Zonk
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  #702  
Old 04-26-2011, 08:55 AM
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I certainly understand the concept that family and friends of the bride sit on one side and those associated with the groom sit on another side. That is what happens in normal weddings. But this isn't a normal wedding. If William was William Wales or Joe Smith, I would imagine that the Spencers would merge in the crowd with the Wales's and/or the Smiths. But again, this isn't a normal wedding. This is a royal wedding.

William is the heir's heir and there is protocol that must be accounted for. I mean, does anyone remember Charles and Camilla not going to the Westminister wedding because the Queen was going and as result Charles couldn't sit with Camilla? There are different rules involved.

Again, I repeat my earlier statement. If Diana was alive, the Spencers still would not be sitting with the BRF.
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  #703  
Old 04-26-2011, 09:03 AM
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It's interesting to think where infact Diana would have sat. As the grooms mother I would think she'd have sat beside the royal family. In any case I'd like to think she'd have taken, given the nature of the ceremony, precedence over any other women beside the Queen in the abbey.

Anyway, that's a guessing game that is endless.
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  #704  
Old 04-26-2011, 09:10 AM
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Without a doubt in my mind, if Diana was alive she would be sitting with the Royal Family in the front row. Didn't the Queen insist that upon her divorce (although she lost the HRH title) she was still considered a member of the BRF?

There is no way that William would have allowed her to be treated any differently than the Mother of the Groom.

But I agree, we can talk about that for days and it doesn't change the fact that Diana is no longer here physically.
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  #705  
Old 04-26-2011, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Without a doubt in my mind, if Diana was alive she would be sitting with the Royal Family in the front row. Didn't the Queen insist that upon her divorce (although she lost the HRH title) she was still considered a member of the BRF?
I do believe it was something to that effect.
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  #706  
Old 04-26-2011, 09:25 AM
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Where Princess Diana might have sit is a loaded question.

I think it would depend on these factors:
Princess Diana and Prince Charles are friends now.
Diana, Princess of Wales was still close to her grow up sons after the divorce.
She had another husband and family and move on from the House of Windsor.
Diana might have bad feeling towards Camilla and not want to sit near her.
I think she would have sat with her siblings. And the Spencer siblings and Diana would be seated on the grooms side. She was very proud of her heritage.

Getting back to the wedding and the Spencer siblings. I feel that they should have sat with the royal family to honor Diana. It is my opinion that 3 seats would be no problem to reserve in Westminster Abbey.

I guess with everyone I have to disagree to agree.
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  #707  
Old 04-26-2011, 09:36 AM
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It is my opinion that 3 seats would be no problem to reserve in Westminster Abbey.
Six seats actually, and they have been reserved. All three of Diana's siblings are either married or soon will be.

And then theres the question of their respective families, if they have been invited to attend which as it stands, we currently do not know.

So it's not a matter of three seats at all and as the seating arrangements which have been released clearly indicate, the Spencers are seated across from foreign royals and the Middleton attendee's. A prime position it would seem.
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  #708  
Old 04-26-2011, 10:12 AM
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Actually 7 seats...don't forget Great Aunt Anne. And then why would they (Sarah, Jane and Charles) be separated from their children. Were they expected to sit with the BRF as well?
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  #709  
Old 04-26-2011, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiea

American loved Diana, Princess of Wales. When she danced with John Travolta at the White House that was her making here.
I am an American, I liked Diana, I like Will and Kate- I hate Earl Spencer but I don't believe they are being snubbed bc this wedding is different then a wedding you or I may attend it isn't brides side /grooms side, it's Royals and non Royals period.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgiea
Again in this thread it is mentioned that he was asked. I can not remember if it was at the abbey or a reception.
An article did,when they were first engaged, suggest the Earl would give a speech and you're right we did discuss....luckily I believe that articles proven false :)
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  #710  
Old 04-26-2011, 10:15 AM
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Articles also suggested that Kanye West was also going to attend. So far nothing.

In regards to the Earl giving a speech, if he was close to William and was going to be mindful of the place (not using it as an opportunity to rehash old issues) than I wouldn't have a problem with giving him a speech. He is after all William's uncle, but it appears that his giving a speech is not the cards.

Thats not to say that Sarah or Jane or another Spencer could give a reading. Eugenie, did after all, give a reading of a scripture at Peter's wedding.
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  #711  
Old 04-26-2011, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Actually 7 seats...don't forget Great Aunt Anne.
How remiss of me
Quote:

And then why would they (Sarah, Jane and Charles) be separated from their children. Were they expected to sit with the BRF as well
I agree.
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  #712  
Old 04-26-2011, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Actually 7 seats...don't forget Great Aunt Anne. And then why would they (Sarah, Jane and Charles) be separated from their children. Were they expected to sit with the BRF as well?
If you want to be technically correct 7 seats. But my reasoning is if seating is limited to just four. I think for the wedding if seating is limited their spouses, fiancee and children could sit else where. I don't think that would be a problem. At the receptions that would be a problem.

Like I have stated in the past, Diana, Princess of Wales would have been honored if her siblings would sit with the royals. This might be a royal wedding, but Diana, Princess of Wales in my opinion is not being represented at the wedding. And I guess being a Diana fan is more important than being American. I guess that fan part is the REAL REASON FOR MY FEELINGS OF A SPENCER SNUB.
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  #713  
Old 04-26-2011, 10:50 AM
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mhh.. when I got married, my father was allready dead - do you think I should have invited his sister and her kidds to represent my father at my wedding? Of course I didn't. I mean, they where invited and there of course - but as themselves .. as family .. ... why should it be diffrent with Dianas family?
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  #714  
Old 04-26-2011, 10:57 AM
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I'm rather bemused by your rationale, G.

If I'm not mistaken the occasion is centred around Diana's family (her son) anyway, so I fail to see how any of this could be considered a snub on anyone's behalf.

And to suggest she isn't represented makes no sense. It's her son who's getting married. How much more representation can someone recieve than that? And it's not as though her family aren't invited. They are sitting but two metres away from William and Catherine.

Though your opinion, what you appear (?) to suggest is in my mind, unreasonable and unrealistic and no amount of Diana admiring can change the fact her family are not royal and so shall not sit with the royal family. They have been accorded the appropriate seating arrangements as William's maternal relations. If William wanted them seated anywhere else, then I'm sure that's what would have happened but evidently, where they are positioned is perfectly acceptable with him and I'm sure it is perfectly acceptable with them :)

Even if Diana were alive, her family would no doubt still be seated where they are on the day anyway. Would you be so eager to suggest a "snub" if that were the case I wonder? Somehow, I'm not so sure.

Quote:
I think for the wedding if seating is limited their spouses, fiancee and children could sit else where.
But again, why cause a logistical issue when theres no need for one? It makes no sense to divide up a family for the sake of having his two aunts and his uncle sit with a family which is not their own.

They sit united as Spencers, which is the way it should be.
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  #715  
Old 04-26-2011, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Without a doubt in my mind, if Diana was alive she would be sitting with the Royal Family in the front row. Didn't the Queen insist that upon her divorce (although she lost the HRH title) she was still considered a member of the BRF?

There is no way that William would have allowed her to be treated any differently than the Mother of the Groom.

But I agree, we can talk about that for days and it doesn't change the fact that Diana is no longer here physically.
Yes Zonk, you are quite right. It was made clear as part of Diana's wedding settlement that she was still to be regarded as a member of the Royal Family and would be receiving appropriate invitations to State Occasions.

And if Diana was alive today, would she be sitting with the Royal Family and next to Charles? Easy to answer - yes she would I am sure. Read on:

So far as Royal Weddings are concerned, we do have two fairly recent precedents to go on: Both Diana and Sarah Duchess of York's parents were divorced - and both in very acrimonious circumstances - both their mothers were regarded as 'bolters' [the term used by the Upper Classes to signify women who left their husbands and families] and their divorces followed allegations of adultery when it was frowned on in a way that seems rather different from today's slightly more-relaxed approach to marital infidelity. Anyway, for the purpose of both Charles' and Diana's Wedding and Andrew and Sarah's wedding, at the relevent times both Earl Spencer and Mrs Shand Kydd sat together as did Major Fergusson and Mrs Barrantes. Their new partners [Raine Spencer, Hector Barrantes, Susan Fegusson were all invited to the weddings as well - they just sat away from their spouses during the actually 'ceremony-and-carriage-back-to BP' part...[incidentally, Sarah included her step-mother in the arrangements by asking her to help with advice for the flowers for the bridesmaids, so Susan Fergusson did not feel 'left-out']

I have to say that I looked closely at both parties at the time of the weddings to see how things were going to be dealt with [remember, 30 and 25 years ago, Divorce was not unknown in the Royal Family but it still seemed fairly novel to have the daughters of divorcees marrying into the immediate Royal Family] and both couples seemed to be pretty 'tight-lipped' but being what I will call 'civilised' for the sake of their offspring.

I will say this again; I am quite sure that there is no intention to deliberately 'snub' Earl Spencer, in that I am quite sure that Catherine and William are placing him where they feel appropriate - by which I mean that I think they are closer to their own immediate family and friends than William's late mother's brother [don't forget, William was relatively young when his mother died, and in my humble opinion went on to develop closer relationships with other friends and family members rather than his uncle].

And as for giving a speech / reading a lesson; well, I suppose until the great day, when the souvenir programme is on sale, we don't actually know, but even if Earl Spencer was quite close to William [and I don't think he is, not because he is 'shunned' but because life moves on] I would not expect him to have direct involvement with the wedding....

And consider this - at least Earl Spencer has been invited. The papers [including the quality papers] in England are full of lists of close friends of the Princess who one would have thought would have been invited but have not been - Diana's friends and confidantes Lucia Flecha De Lima, Lady Annabel Goldsmith and Rosa Monkton. Now that does sound like a snub, but then BP has been quick to point out that space is at a premium and William and Catherine have a lot of their own friends to invite....

Do you know, although it's a Royal Wedding, at the end of the day there are echoes of the same sort of issues that affect many of our own weddings...lack of space, lots of people who expect to be invited, an embarrassing relative or two.....

Alex
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  #716  
Old 04-26-2011, 11:22 AM
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I'm rather bemused by your rationale, G...
As much as you are bemused by my logic, I am bemused by your rational about Spencer's snub as being just royal protocol. I am not so sure.

Quote:Even if Diana were alive, her family would no doubt still be seated where they are on the day anyway. Would you be so eager to suggest a "snub" if that were the case I wonder? Somehow, I'm not so sure.

Madame Royale I agree with the above statement if Diana, Princess of Wales was sitting with the royals. But there would be many factors to that situation as I stated in previous post.

I was raised to honor my elders. I married 30 years ago-two weeks after Princess Diana. If my parent was died I would honor their family by sitting their siblings (my aunts or uncles).

So as you are bemused by me, I AM BEMUSED by others who don't think it is a snub.
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  #717  
Old 04-26-2011, 11:30 AM
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The issue seems to reflect a difference in culture (as I gather from your above post?).

That's not to say they are wrong, or that you are wrong. This just happens to be the way this paritcular family, this institution, works. And the society with which they associate would not be dissimilar in the way they handle things either.

We all belong to a culture, but within that culture is found sub cultures and the way the aristocracy or indeed, the royal family work, will be very different to the way you or your family approach something such as the seating plan at a wedding. The differences are of course enormous, so it would be pointless to even attempt to compare, but I hope you understand what I mean :)

To them, this seating arrangement is perfectly acceptable. To you it's not but again, that doesn't make it a 'snub', as you suggest. That just means you wouldn't observe the same approach.
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  #718  
Old 04-26-2011, 11:55 AM
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Dividing up families at weddings is definitely an etiquette faux pas, unless one of the members is acting in a capacity as part of the wedding.

Just reading this thread makes me realize how difficult making the seating chart must have been, for the royal couple (although thankfully there's precedent).
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
The issue seems to reflect a difference in culture (as I gather from your above post?)...
You make sense. I have never been around royalty or aristocrat peoples.
I am now seeing the fishbowl life of royal protocol.

I hope to see from William and Catherine on their wedding some of these points taken from etiquette book on how to honor a dead parent.
(Prince William has done the first one when he gave Catherine his mother's engagement ring.)
  1. Wear a piece of jewelry or article of clothing.
  2. Carry the same flowers that your mother had in her bouquet.
  3. At the end of the wedding program, it is appropriate to add a memoriam line. For example, you might write “Today we honor those who could not be with us, especially .......
Her sister, Sarah is going to were Diana, Princess of Wales (loaded from her mother) wedding earring to Prince William's wedding.

It must be cultural thing because MSMBC from America said this:

St. James's Palace also released the seating plan at Westminster Abbey, which showed that relatives of William's mother Princess Diana are sitting across the aisle from the royal family, joining the Middletons in an exception to the traditional division of a church into a bride's side and groom's side.

There was no explanation of the seating arrangement, but the Spencers have not had a good relationship with the royal family, especially after Diana's brother Charles Spencer attacked the royals during a speech at her 1997 funeral.


And the BBC said this:

Spencer family
Next to the Middletons will be members of the Spencer family including Lady Sarah McCorquodale, the sister of William's mother, Diana, Princess of Wales.

Lady Anne Wake-Walker, Diana's aunt; Lord Fellowes and Lady Jane Fellowes, Diana's brother-in-law and sister; and Earl Spencer will be seated alongside her.

Foreign dignitaries and diplomats will sit in the South Transept which is directly to the side.

Very much a cultural thing. BTW does anyone know where to get a royal etiquette book?
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  #720  
Old 04-26-2011, 04:04 PM
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.. the weddings I attended in Germany and Switzerland, there was never a Brides-side and a grooms-side in Church

and also my own wedding - I didn't felt a need to *include* my much loved late father in the ceremony in any other way than thinking and probably telling to my husband, that he would have enjoyed being with us, on that special day.
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