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  #201  
Old 07-09-2008, 02:55 PM
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Mental cruelty/abuse is still a valid reason for divorce, unfortunately it was/is as real as physical abuse and does take place!
I think you misunderstood what I meant. I don't dispute that abuse exists.

In the U.S. we normally use the language "irreconcilable differences" now, but we used to have to allege abuse, infidelity, etc. as the grounds for wanting a divorce. (In the case of the Spencers I know that then-Viscount Althorp alleged infidelity and she claimed mental cruelty. Frances had to make some sort of counter-claim because she wanted custody of the children.) I think "irreconcilable differences" is kinder language because the parties don't have to go into great detail or make up stories, plus it doesn't get into "he said, she said" issues which are upsetting to children.

It was also common "back in the day" in Britain for the spouses to agree to have the husband caught in bed with another woman and that would serve as the grounds for divorce.

Obviously, in the Spencers' case Viscount Althorp triumphed, especially since his wife had been named as the other party in the Shand Kidd divorce and her own mother testified against her. I'm not sure that Frances was able to provide convincing evidence that Viscount Althorp had abused her.
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  #202  
Old 07-09-2008, 03:04 PM
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Sorry, I thought you were saying it didn't.

Here it depends whether the divorce is contested as to what details are discussed and whether there is money involved. I have been involved with a battered wives group and sometimes I think mental abuse is worse in some ways and as you say very hard to prove to outsiders. I always felt incredibly sorry for Frances, to lose custody of your children is bad enough but to do so with the help of your own mother must be the ultimate betrayal.
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  #203  
Old 07-09-2008, 04:42 PM
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didn't the term "irreconcilable differences" come to be so that it could cover a multitude of issues without specifying?
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  #204  
Old 07-09-2008, 09:13 PM
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Random question but since this thread includes the Althrop Museum I wanted to ask are Diana's dresses still there? I know in the past they've taken a few pieces on mini road tours to display them so I was wondering if anyone knows where they are now. Sorry I didn't know where else to post this.
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  #205  
Old 07-09-2008, 09:27 PM
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Random question but since this thread includes the Althrop Museum I wanted to ask are Diana's dresses still there? I know in the past they've taken a few pieces on mini road tours to display them so I was wondering if anyone knows where they are now. Sorry I didn't know where else to post this.
They take them on tours when Althorp is not open to the public. You can check the website for specifics, but I believe it's open July, August and September. I highly recommend it!!

Althorp House, Northampton - Hospitality, Corporate Events, Tourist Attractions
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  #206  
Old 07-10-2008, 02:27 PM
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didn't the term "irreconcilable differences" come to be so that it could cover a multitude of issues without specifying?
I think you're right. IMO it seems better when your children eventually see these papers just to say "mommy and daddy couldn't get along" rather than "mental cruelty" or "infidelity." At least neither parent gets tarnished in the eyes of the children.

I just read Sarah Bradford and Tina Brown on Diana, and as far as I could tell the "mental cruelty" Frances was talking about was separation from her youngest children.

I wonder if the children would have turned out better had the Althorps worked out an amicable split and Frances been awarded primary care and custody of the children. Johnny Spencer doesn't seem to have coped very well when Charles and Diana needed him most (seemed like he dumped them on nannies and other servants, and then packed them off to boarding schools).
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  #207  
Old 07-10-2008, 04:12 PM
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I think you're right. IMO it seems better when your children eventually see these papers just to say "mommy and daddy couldn't get along" rather than "mental cruelty" or "infidelity." At least neither parent gets tarnished in the eyes of the children.
Even if the divorce is because of irreconcilable differences, there is normally a note on the Nisi & Absolute detailing what the irreconcilable differences were and of course they are shown on the divorce papers.

There have been calls for a 'no fault' divorce to save time and mudslinging but nothing has happened so far. Interestingly, falling out of love is cited in 26% of cases, while nearly 16% of women cited abuse, men tend to cite lack of sex but the main cause remains infidelity at 30%. So here, at least the only way to stop young children finding out, if they didn't already know, is to lock the papers away.
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I wonder if the children would have turned out better had the Althorps worked out an amicable split and Frances been awarded primary care and custody of the children. Johnny Spencer doesn't seem to have coped very well when Charles and Diana needed him most (seemed like he dumped them on nannies and other servants, and then packed them off to boarding schools).
It is always better for the children if the separation and divorce is handled 'nicely', with their mental welbeing kept in mind, sadly this rarely happens, with parents using the children to get at each other. I think Johnny saw the children as a weapon to use against Frances and as a result, he damaged them both.
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  #208  
Old 07-11-2008, 10:46 AM
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I read in a Diana´s biography that her parents had so many children looking for the male heir. When they finally got one, the child died, and that happened before Diana and Charles were born. That experience is usually terrible for a marriage.
As it is for the children who are born after. I doubt Frances made a difference between Charles and Diana but in spite of what's been said on Johnnie's love for all his children, it wasn't the same affection for the male heir and for his daughters, especially Diana who came as "the child of replacement". She was certainly another "disappointment" because she was a girl and they had lost a boy. The feeling of being "inferior" to her brother who would carry on the name of the Spencers was probably damaging for her and for Charles who was conditioned to represent the Spencer family.
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  #209  
Old 07-12-2008, 09:40 AM
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It was only last month that Princess Diana's brother Earl Spencer abruptly ended his affair with the glamorous American TV presenter who had taken the place of his second wife.

Fourth in line: Earl Spencer is spotted holidaying with ANOTHER pretty companion | Mail Online
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  #210  
Old 07-12-2008, 04:30 PM
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For lack of better words...he is a Hot Mess!

Can't feel bad for Colleen...as she know what she was working with.
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  #211  
Old 07-13-2008, 02:38 PM
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in time she'll see that he did her a VERY BIG favor. thank god she wasn't married to him.
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  #212  
Old 07-13-2008, 02:59 PM
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yes she will. but she left her job, her fiancee, family and friends moved across the Pond for what? Again...she knew what she was getting into?

I wonder what he is really looking for?
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  #213  
Old 07-13-2008, 09:25 PM
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Conquests, apparently.
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  #214  
Old 07-14-2008, 01:48 PM
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A few rare images :
Picasa Web Albums - Andrea - Althorp/Londo...
Picasa Web Albums - Andrea - Althorp/Londo...

The people present on the first picture are undoubtably familiar to Charles (or Coleen) since they slept in the room surrounded by paintings (for a moment there I thought he was starting to rent Althorp!)

Here's the picasa album where they are uploaded. Many pics of the rooms and surroundings : Picasa Web Albums - Andrea - Althorp/Londo...
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  #215  
Old 07-14-2008, 03:01 PM
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The Truth...

WOW! What a great album! Thanks so much for posting these links. I just finished viewing the entire album and it was worth every click. Lol!!
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  #216  
Old 07-14-2008, 08:32 PM
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There's gotta be some Winterhalters in there.
Any Vigee LeBruns??
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  #217  
Old 07-18-2008, 01:45 AM
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I find that, as time goes by, more people are aware of how awful Earl Spencer's speech was at that funeral. At the time, it seemed like a grief-stricken brother fighting for his sister's legacy; but as time goes by, it sounds more and more like a bitter rant against the Windsors.
I dunno some of it sounded sincere , although he was a bit harsh at times. Although I don't approve of the Althrop museum I do think it's fascinating to have somewhere to go and see all her dresses, but then again I am a gril.
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  #218  
Old 07-18-2008, 01:13 PM
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I thought the funeral speech was heroic but insensitive to his nephews. He sounded furious, not only at the press but at the Windsors ... and attacks on the Windsors could only have confused those poor sad boys. In the end those children could only grow up to be Windsors and closer to the Establishment and the "grey men." It was their destiny IMO.

And I felt let down by Earl Spencer. He didn't live up to the ideals he spouted that day, and he doesn't seem to have had much contact with her children after his death either.

I think this Spencer is all show and very little substance.
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  #219  
Old 07-18-2008, 01:55 PM
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Can't feel bad for Colleen...as she know what she was working with.
Exactly. Any woman that gets involved with him has only herself to blame. Everyone knows his track record and how he treats women. So, really, I don't feel too badly for any of these women...except maybe his first wife. The rest had fair warning IMO.
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  #220  
Old 07-18-2008, 02:34 PM
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And I felt let down by Earl Spencer. He didn't live up to the ideals he spouted that day, and he doesn't seem to have had much contact with her children after his death either.

I think this Spencer is all show and very little substance.
Or as I heard him described - All Mouth and No Trousers!
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