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  #881  
Old 09-11-2014, 10:04 PM
Serene Highness
 
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I can't really respond to all of Miss Hathaway’s (or Scooter's) points because this thread is not about whether Camilla briefed Stuart Higgins. But it is relevant to discuss Diana’s lack of honesty, especially when she was trying to avoid responsibility for her own actions and/or protecting her public image.

One problem with Miss Hathaway’s analysis is that she assumes Charles and Camilla carried on their affair throughout the marriage. How does she “know” that? Diana said so. But how does Diana know? The two people involved deny it, so the question is whom to believe.

The Panorama interview gives us a very relevant example of Diana shamelessly evading responsibility for her own actions by falsely blaming another person—in that case a child who had done absolutely nothing to hurt her. But Diana outing the child in the Panorama interview was not only outrageous, it was unnecessary. She had already admitted to Richard Kay that she had hung up on Hoare’s wife a few times. She could have just repeated that and acknowledged she shouldn’t have done it. Most people would have forgotten about it among all the other revelations in the interview.

I keep that lie in mind as I evaluate her claims about her marriage. The only way that Diana could have maintained her public image was by completely avoiding taking any responsibility for the breakup of her marriage was to convince the general public that Charles had never been committed to the marriage in the first place. That gave her the incentive to lie. Yes, Charles also has an incentive to lie, and did, but it doesn’t seem to be as integral to his character. There are other examples of Diana’s dishonesty. Even Diana’s brother acknowledged that she had difficulties with the truth.

Obviously people are going to believe what they want to believe. But just because Diana was photogenic and posed with sick children doesn't mean that she was telling the truth. I don't understand why some people are so sure that, in this case, Diana is telling the truth.

That said, I acknowledge that Charles and Camilla may be lying. I just don't think so. The difference between me and some Diana fans is that I would be outraged if I found out that Charles claimed to have pushed someone down the stairs.
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  #882  
Old 09-11-2014, 10:09 PM
Queen Camilla's Avatar
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None of Camilla relatives were mistresses of Charles' grandfather, greatgrandfather or greatgreatgrandfather. (All lies.)

Diana would still be alive if she put on her seat belt.

Diana, rather than put on her seat belt, was looking at the photographers.

The woman died because she was obsesses with the photographers.
(Daily Mail printed the photo about a month ago.)
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  #883  
Old 09-11-2014, 10:15 PM
Mermaid1962's Avatar
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Camilla's grandmother, Alice Keppell, was Edward VII's mistress. That is a fact of history.
  #884  
Old 09-11-2014, 10:34 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
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Her grandmother Alice Keppel was King Edward VII's mistress. Well documented. Try reading history books.
  #885  
Old 09-11-2014, 10:47 PM
Queen Camilla's Avatar
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Alice Keppel was not Edward VII's mistress. She was a friend.

I read the books. I read what matter most, the books & articles written by people who actually knew both Edward & Alice. All state Alice was Edward's friend, companion and confidant.

Alice Keppel is Camilla's great grandmother.

Clearly your information is incorrect as you think Alice was Camilla's grandmother.

Infact, I just re-read all the books & articles about Alice from people who knew her.

The 1952 & 1958 books written by her daughters are a must read.
  #886  
Old 09-11-2014, 11:01 PM
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Reading over recent conversations about Diana, I think whether it be hanging up on phone calls or putting forth a slanted view of her marriage in interviews and even the supposed threats made against Camilla all boils down to one thing. Diana, herself, was a very insecure person. She really wasn't strong enough to comfortably engage in a mature, healthy relationship and whatever went wrong, real or imagined, was a threat against her. Her perception of what a loving relationship is was far from a mature one. It was one where she expected to be on a pedestal and had to be all encompassing. It was her fear of the close friendship that existed between Charles and the Parker-Bowles and other friends of his that threatened to deprive Diana of the "one above all others" kind of worship she felt she was due by being Charles' wife. This manifested itself in Charles cutting off relationship with some very dear friends he'd had for years. I do believe that no matter who it was, if they were 100% adoring and for a lack of words, moonstruck by her grace and presence, they were against her and she quickly cut them off. Call it a persecution complex but it is easy to see in various aspects of Diana's life. Perhaps that is why she excelled so much at her charity work and with the general public. People admired her to the moon and were grateful for the attention Diana gave and I do think on Diana's part it was heartfelt. It was in the give and take areas of her personal life where the problems arose.
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  #887  
Old 09-11-2014, 11:23 PM
Mermaid1962's Avatar
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Yes. I stand corrected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post

Alice Keppel is Camilla's great grandmother.
  #888  
Old 09-11-2014, 11:27 PM
Mermaid1962's Avatar
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Yes, I think you're right. No one will ever convince me that Diana's public work was "all for the cameras." We probably all know people who can't stand criticism, no matter how slight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Call it a persecution complex but it is easy to see in various aspects of Diana's life. Perhaps that is why she excelled so much at her charity work and with the general public. People admired her to the moon and were grateful for the attention Diana gave and I do think on Diana's part it was heartfelt. It was in the give and take areas of her personal life where the problems arose.
  #889  
Old 09-12-2014, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Marg, did Diana talk about that "on the record"? On the Settelen tapes, she talks about pushing her down the stairs but not about throwing out her things. I think it was in Tina Brown's book that the garbage bags full of Raine's things were mentioned.
It was as "on the record" as all the rest of the Settelen tapes.
Quote:
Quote:
Much of the latest footage released by Diana's former voice coach Peter Settelen concentrates on her troubled childhood. The tapes were made by Mr Settelen between 1992 and 1993, among the most turbulent times of Diana's marriage to Prince Charles. Mr Settelen has sold the tapes to the American network NBC. These are the latest highlights ?
When Earl Spencer died in 1992, Diana says she and [her brother] Charles were instrumental in ejecting Raine, throwing her clothes in a binliner and taking them out the back of the house.
Read more: Diana tapes: My troubled childhood | Mail Online
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  #890  
Old 09-12-2014, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
It is all poppycock, you are right. Charles made his choice and that was that. What he had to do for public appearance and the throne he would do, the rest is all history. Had Diana been the usual compliant Princess of Wales, she would, probably, still be alive now and still princess of Wales and Camilla would still be Charles' mistress, as her grandmother was his great grandfather's mistress. But Diana couldn't buy the part, foolish or not on her part, so Camilla won, Diana is dead and Charles is happy.
Naa Countess, Diana wasn't the only who wanted out of the marriage, Charles wanted out too, (i'm sure privately he asked his mom for a divorce in the 80s.) he could have kept it together when everything finally came out, which it would have eventually, many kings did...I remember someone saying years back...Charles didn't want to save the marriage, he later wanted out so he could marry Camilla as he wanted to...
  #891  
Old 09-12-2014, 09:22 AM
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There was no reason for a divorce. If there were ever two people able to live completely separate but remain together for their children and for a common cause they are attached to (the monarchy and the nation) then it were the Prince and Princess of Wales.

Every possible solution could have been worked out. The Princess of Wales with her own staff residing at Birkhall? At Clarence House? At Highgrove? Say it Ma'am and we will arrange it for you. The Princess of Wales only appearing together with the Prince of Wales when it is absolutely necessary, the State Opening of Parliament, the Trooping the Colour, State Banquets? Say it Ma'am and we will arrange it for you.

The weddings of Juliana of the Netherlands and Berhard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld, Albert of the Belgians and Paola Ruffo di Calabria, Juan Carlos of Spain and Sofía of Greece and Denmark, etc. all show that marriages can rock to the deepest but that royal couples can remain together and even re-find the love for each other that once went lost.

It is very well possible that Diana, now 53 years old and a grandmother, has changed, has come in more calm waters, has learned to appreciate the beauty and the tranquil of the countryside, has developed into a doting grandmother and has finally found her place next to the future King. That divorce was so sad and I think both Charles and Diana could have made more efforts and sacrifices to make this union to a success, anyhow and at any cost. It is impossible that Diana would ever have refound a secure base and a tranquil life. No matter with whom she would have re-married, she would always and ever remain one of the most hunted ladies in the world, but now without royal protection and distance. I really think the only workable future for Diana was to remain married and find the best possible arrangement to have an own role within the monarchy.
  #892  
Old 09-12-2014, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I can't really respond to all of Miss Hathaway’s (or Scooter's) points because this thread is not about whether Camilla briefed Stuart Higgins.
This thread is about the different facets of Diana's personality. In order to understand why people behave as they do, you have to understand circumstances that affected/shaped their lives. I.e., Charles moans that his mummy wasn't there for him, etc., etc.

It is very revealing to see evidence that from the first year of marriage until the marital separation, Camilla Parker Bowles was helping a tabloid with its stories about Diana and her marriage. And, apparently, since St. James Palace took no legal action and Charles didn't banish Camilla from his life, apparently it was with Charles' knowledge and approval.

This kind of behavior would have a detrimental affect on any young woman, and so it is through that lens that we need to judge Diana's actions at that time of her life.
  #893  
Old 09-12-2014, 11:49 AM
Serene Highness
 
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I accept that Camilla was talking to the media. Upthread I was accused of "changing my tune," which is a negative way to say that I am keeping an open mind.

Both Diana's friends and Charles's friends have talked to the media. You have concluded that Charles approved Camilla talking to the media because he would have banished her if he didn't. I think Charles is unlikely to every separate from Camilla no matter what she does or did. He's deeply in love with her. I think it is most likely he would forgive her if she was talking to the media without his consent.

Second, you are drawing a lot of conclusions based on a few headlines. We don't know how many of those headlines were from stories that Stuart Higgins wrote. he wasn't the only royal correspondent for the SUN. We all know that the headlines from the tabloids are usually very sensational but the actual articles can be very tame.

The reality is that the quotes you have provided indicate that he called her after he had a story and asked her to confirm or deny, so the stories were already out there. For an example of how that works, you might want to watch the old movie, All the President's Men in which one of the news sources provides the same information.

You are assuming that Camilla and Charles were having an affair and she was trying to undermine Diana. As I have pointed out, there is no evidence that they had resumed their affair. My husband was my only real boyfriend but I do know ex-girlfriends who became friends with both their ex-boyfriend and his new friends. It is a little unusual but it happens.

I don't think Charles was a perfect husband. He failed to support her in the way she needed (which was different than the way she wanted) and he had an affair (after the marriage broke down).

But Diana wasn't a perfect wife. She failed to provide him the support he needed and she had affairs (again, after the marriage broke down.)

You cannot blame Charles for all of Diana's problems. Her mother was an alcoholic. Her father was accused of wife beating. One of her sister's suffered from an eating disorder and her brother married a woman who had similar problems. I think it is likely that Diana would have had difficulties no matter who she married.
  #894  
Old 09-12-2014, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I really think the only workable future for Diana was to remain married and find the best possible arrangement to have an own role within the monarchy.

I have to agree with this.
Somehow I don't think Diana foresaw the full consequences of a divorce; she was so focused on getting rid of Camilla and then striking back at both Camilla and Charles that she lost sight of what a divorce might mean for her.

If she'd stayed married, she might have been able to reach some accommodation with Charles, and maintained her social position.
(Instead, she was reduced to a relationship with Dodi Fayed).
  #895  
Old 09-12-2014, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
...You cannot blame Charles for all of Diana's problems. Her mother was an alcoholic. Her father was accused of wife beating. One of her sister's suffered from an eating disorder and her brother married a woman who had similar problems. I think it is likely that Diana would have had difficulties no matter who she married.
Very good and insightful post US Royal Watcher, its now one of the best comment written on the royal forum for me.
  #896  
Old 09-12-2014, 01:49 PM
Mermaid1962's Avatar
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I just remembered that I missed one section of the NBC program because it wasn't on YouTube for some reason. That must have been when she said it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
It was as "on the record" as all the rest of the Settelen tapes.


Read more: Diana tapes: My troubled childhood | Mail Online
  #897  
Old 09-12-2014, 01:57 PM
Mermaid1962's Avatar
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Yes. Mirabel, I agree with this 100%. The whole thing is just so tragic. Everything has consequences of one kind or another. Diana didn't foresee consequences. I don't think that Charles did either. Every step they made in the marriage toward self-indulgence contributed to its end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
I have to agree with this.
Somehow I don't think Diana foresaw the full consequences of a divorce; she was so focused on getting rid of Camilla and then striking back at both Camilla and Charles that she lost sight of what a divorce might mean for her.

If she'd stayed married, she might have been able to reach some accommodation with Charles, and maintained her social position.
(Instead, she was reduced to a relationship with Dodi Fayed).
  #898  
Old 09-12-2014, 01:57 PM
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Both Diana and Charles messed up in many ways and that's one of the reasons why I always state that, if we're going to talk about the breakdown of the Waleses marriage, it's has to be fair and balanced.
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  #899  
Old 09-12-2014, 02:04 PM
Mermaid1962's Avatar
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Yes, this is true, Dman. There's something about this couple, though, that tends to make people biased one one way or another and very strongly.
  #900  
Old 09-12-2014, 04:47 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Both Diana and Charles messed up in many ways and that's one of the reasons why I always state that, if we're going to talk about the breakdown of the Waleses marriage, it's has to be fair and balanced.
Where we disagree Dman, is you seem to think every post has to indicate that they were both equally to blame for everything.

First, this is a thread about the Facets of Diana. It is not about Diana and Charles, so it is not appropriate to drag Charles and Camilla into each discussion of her character.

Second, Camilla and some of Charles friends most likely did speak to the media. But Stuart Higgins only states that Camilla just confirmed or denied stories. He never says she planted them. He also said she stopped in 1992. We also know that Charles asked his friends not to criticize Diana. A few didn't listen to him and criticized her anyway but there was nothing he could do about that.

On the other hand, we know that Diana didn't ask her friends not to criticize Charles, and no one in Diana's camp stopped in 1992. Therefore, it is not fair to simply say they both criticized each other equally.

You often argue that they both gave TV interviews, so they were both equally to blame. However, again, I think you are being very unfair. Charles did not attack Diana in his interview.

One of the biggest differences between them is that Diana could not let ANYTHING negative go unanswered, even when it was true. She actually led an attack on a child who had done nothing to her in order to avoid taking responsibility for her own actions. Please provide an example of when Charles did something like that. While you are at it, please provide examples of Charles admitting that he pushed an older person down some stairs or slapping one of his parents.
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