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  #461  
Old 06-19-2013, 02:26 PM
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I felt bad that Dodi and the driver was killed as well but those turn of events turns my stomach even today. I totally understand when William & harry said back in 2007, they think about that night all the time, they still have questions and don't think the truth will ever be known.
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  #462  
Old 06-19-2013, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
Blauerengel, it occurs to me that any kind of mutual interest would be a hard thing to find between a girl who hadn't yet become an adult woman and a man who had never been young.

However, there were moments. My late partner attended a party at the Royal Opera House during which a sketch from Romeo and Juliet was performed. Suddenly there appeared on the balcony NOT Juliet but Diana calling for her Romeo. Undaunted, Charles called for the stage manager to find him a ladder which he proceded to climb to access his Juliet. I don't think I need to tell you that their audience loved it. My late partner found himself at one point rubbing shoulders with her and confirmed that she was every bit as beautiful as she was said to be. He used the word "luminous."
It is certainly true,that a young,unexperienced woman has less in common with a much older,highly educated man who has been around highly important people from the day he was born. He grew up in the Royal family and he knew the system,the media and what was expected from him. Diana and Charles certainly adored each other and there may have been what we call "love", but for a long-lasting relationship we need more than just affection and romantic feelings.
A strong friendship like Camilla and Charles are having is a good foundation for a sound marriage,the first romantic infatuation and physical attraction fades away, but a strong bond of friendship and mutual respect is able to carry people through the difficult and hard times too.
One of Diana´s close friends said in an interview that for Diana,Charles always represented the "ideal man", he was her "reference point" and she would compare all her lovers to her ex-husband.
From a neutral point of view this is quite understandable because he is very intellectual,refined and well-mannered and just like Diana he is very interested in doing charity through the work of his POW-foundation.
On the other hand Charles admired Diana because she had many qualities and character traits that he did not have so much, she seems to me like a humorous, open-minded and free-spirited person who often laughed about her own mistakes and weaknesses.This is something I particularly like about Diana,because she was aware of her difficulties and problems,but still she was able to laugh about it and even joke about it in some of her official speeches ;-)
As we say, opposites attract, but the whole differences+the media pressure+demands of the RF and the huge difference in age and experience was no good for the marriage, even though I believe that they would be good friends by now if it had not been for that terrible accident.

Thanks for sharing this lovely story of C&D in the Royal Opera House,I did not know that story,but it sounds very amusing!
I would love to see Catherine and William do the same,it is such a funny idea to play this famous Romeo & Juliet scene
Your partner was very lucky to get so close to the Princess, I am sure that he really enjoyed this special encounter & memory. She truly had a "luminous" presence, there was something about Diana that is impossible to describe, she was radiating so much grace & charisma
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  #463  
Old 06-19-2013, 04:14 PM
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I often wondered if Diana ever thought about Mrs Hoare or Mrs Carling etc while she was having affairs with their husbands. She talked about how her marriage was crowded because there were 3 people in it, yet she spent time as the 3rd person in other marriages.
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  #464  
Old 06-19-2013, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I often wondered if Diana ever thought about Mrs Hoare or Mrs Carling etc while she was having affairs with their husbands. She talked about how her marriage was crowded because there were 3 people in it, yet she spent time as the 3rd person in other marriages.
That is another facet to Diana's character. She truly believed she was the victim and felt her own pain. But she rarely, if ever, acknowledged how some of her actions hurt other people.
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  #465  
Old 06-19-2013, 04:24 PM
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Yeah, Diana was doing her dirty work too while complaining about Charles's affair. It was a messy time and I'm glad it's all over. She wasn't a perfect person nor a saint. She was human and had her flaws.

What saddens me is that Diana is now gone on. As Harry said, her passing changed their lives forever. She's a missed woman.
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  #466  
Old 06-19-2013, 04:42 PM
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I agree and in many ways she was remarkable. It was courageous of her to reveal that she suffered from a mental illness (although I wish she hadn't blamed it on Charles). I think she lessened the stigma and inspired a lot of people to get help.
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  #467  
Old 06-19-2013, 04:51 PM
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I'm not sure about a mental illness but she did suffer from Bulimia and depression. Her personal life didn't make things easier.

I too like that she spoke out about her bulimia and depression. I also like that she was open about her marriage. Although I don't encourage anyone to really air they're dirty laundry out in public but I think she had a way of letting people know that despite her being a princess and future Queen, living in palaces/castles and having all this great privilege, it didn't mean she didn't have issues and personal struggles.

You think royalty and other well off public figures should be happy and grateful for what they have and not complain but they too have major problems and lives aren't that perfect. That's why I'm glad I was raised to not be envious of anyone who may have more than me because, despite everything, their lives aren't as perfect as one may think.

The Wales's weren't getting the proper help they needed, the world's media was on their backs 24/7 and they had a great deal of pressure on them. I just happen to think if Diana didn't vent her anger, hurt and pain at all, she probably would've taken her own life.
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  #468  
Old 06-19-2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
I'm not sure about a mental illness but she did suffer from Bulimia and depression. Her personal life didn't make things easier.
Dman, both bulimia and depression are mental illnesses. One of her lasting legacies is that her admission that she was mentally ill helped other people to admit they were suffering as well. There is nothing wrong with being mentally ill.
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  #469  
Old 06-19-2013, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
Dman, both bulimia and depression are mental illnesses. One of her lasting legacies is that her admission that she was mentally ill helped other people to admit they were suffering as well. There is nothing wrong with being mentally ill.
Yes, I know. I just looked at it a bit differently. I'm glad we are having these conversations without attacking one another.
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  #470  
Old 06-19-2013, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Yes, I know. I just looked at it a bit differently. I'm glad we are having these conversations without attacking one another.
Thanks for saying that. Although we disagree, I respect your opinion and am enjoying the discussion. It's a lot more fun when people don't take differences of opinion personally.
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  #471  
Old 06-19-2013, 06:36 PM
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Diana's gift was to be able to make people (especially those who had never even met or seen her in person) feel as if they knew her well. I agree with other posters that the beauty, grace and charitable works played a role as well, but to me - she connected quickly, positively and intimately with both men and women (more women, though) in a way I have never experienced before and do not believe I will see again in my lifetime. She died around the same time as my sister and I cried for both of them, when one would think a sister's death would isolate one from that of a public figure. And I am no Diana apologist. The lady had plenty of faults. What I loved about her is that she knew it too and didn't want people to see her as unflawed. Emotional honesty is rare, IMHO and very attractive in our world of reality shows that are "in reality", scripted.
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  #472  
Old 06-19-2013, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsaritsa View Post
However, there were moments. My late partner attended a party at the Royal Opera House during which a sketch from Romeo and Juliet was performed. Suddenly there appeared on the balcony NOT Juliet but Diana calling for her Romeo. Undaunted, Charles called for the stage manager to find him a ladder which he proceded to climb to access his Juliet. I don't think I need to tell you that their audience loved it. My late partner found himself at one point rubbing shoulders with her and confirmed that she was every bit as beautiful as she was said to be. He used the word "luminous."
Thank you for sharing this story. It gives a nice little insight into the time when Charles and Diana were in love, and enjoyed being playful with one another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliza View Post
Diana's gift was to be able to make people (especially those who had never even met or seen her in person) feel as if they knew her well. I agree with other posters that the beauty, grace and charitable works played a role as well, but to me - she connected quickly, positively and intimately with both men and women (more women, though) in a way I have never experienced before and do not believe I will see again in my lifetime. She died around the same time as my sister and I cried for both of them, when one would think a sister's death would isolate one from that of a public figure. And I am no Diana apologist. The lady had plenty of faults. What I loved about her is that she knew it too and didn't want people to see her as unflawed. Emotional honesty is rare, IMHO and very attractive in our world of reality shows that are "in reality", scripted.
This is a great post, and I agree with you 100 percent. Diana had a way of touching people, and most of them have never met her, or even seen her in person. This is a rare gift, but I feel that it's something she used to give others hope, especially those who were ill, or downtrodden. She showed the world that it was OK to cry, or to hurt, to basically NOT be OK, and that is something so many of us struggle with. She had faults, and there are some things she did that are downright cruel, but that just lets us know that even those we consider to be 'saints' are in reality, just humans, like ourselves.
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  #473  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:20 PM
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Actually, you hit on the most important point ( I missed it completely) which is - that to me, one of the most amazing qualities Diana had was her desire and determination to do good with her gifts - even when the "grey men" sought to stop her (different reasons at different times, IMO).

Even after the way some of the RF and/or their courtiers had treated her and feeling like she'd been used as - in her own words - a "brood mare" and like a "lamb to the slaughter" concerning Charles - she still gave her all to help as many as she could, instead of the more common reaction, which would have been to brood, feel sorry for herself and hide in KP. Even when Charles humiliated her publicly on the night of the "adultery-Dimbleby" interview broadcast, she still went out - and in a dress to remember! Likewise and more importantly with her charities: The more they tried to stop her (with HIV/AIDS in particular when she first started highlighting it) the more she made sure she increased her focus. Being a pre-teen/teenager in those years, I was really aware of how much she did to de-stigmatize that awful disease. And the same with leprosy and land mines.

And it was so easy to see how genuine she was and how much she really cared about people, especially those treated shoddily by society for whatever reasons.

Sorry to be redundant, but I really do believe we will never see anyone like her - it takes a lot of strength to keep rebounding and to keep giving to others when one is constantly rejected by the family one has married into.
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  #474  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:27 PM
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Aliza, I am so sorry that you lost your sister and I think it is incredible that in the midst of your family tragedy, you were generous enough to feel sympathy for Diana's family and friends, too.
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  #475  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
That is another facet to Diana's character. She truly believed she was the victim and felt her own pain. But she rarely, if ever, acknowledged how some of her actions hurt other people.
Diana had a strong sense of "its all about me" amd what was not about her did not especially interest her. I suspect that is why she so often picked up and dropped family and friends, either they were useful in feeding her sense of self or they were set aside. Anyone who was remotely critical or questioned her motives had to be set aside until they got back on the "its all about Diana" train.
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  #476  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:51 PM
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In the thread discussing Diana's mental illnesses, we discussed whether she suffered from a personality disorder, such as narcissism. It's tempting to blame someone who suffers from mental illness for their actions, but they really perceive events very differently and they can't step back and see another point of view. Notice, I said "can't" not "won't" because Diana really couldn't see the affect she was having on people.

One thing that I admired about Diana was her ability to make people feel that they not only knew her, but if she actually met them, she would care deeply about them. I agree that it wasn't reality though. She would care about people as long as she was dealing with those who put her on a pedestal. She couldn't handle people who knew she wasn't perfect.

I think if she had lived longer, the new anti-depression medications and therapy techniques would have been able to help her.
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  #477  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Diana had a strong sense of "its all about me" amd what was not about her did not especially interest her. I suspect that is why she so often picked up and dropped family and friends, either they were useful in feeding her sense of self or they were set aside. Anyone who was remotely critical or questioned her motives had to be set aside until they got back on the "its all about Diana" train.
I guess your impression that she was rather egocentric is because she was very emotional,clingy and afraid of being rejected,that´s why she may have wanted to get a lot of attention & love from the people around her. She has suffered a lot from the divorce of her parents and this "emotional scar" never fully recovered,it must have been devastating to live through such times for someone who is so sensitive like Diana certainly was.
She said that she leads from her heart and not from her head & she was very stubborn and determined when she believed in something. Her actions and efforts to help people in need,especially her anti-landmine work has shown that when she feels strongly about a topic,she tries to do everything to make it succeed! The same can be seen in her dedication and devotion to her sons, even if she made some mistakes like every human being does,she always tried to give her best and be the best mother to her sons.
The impression that she was self-centered may also be due to her mental issues,when you are depressed and suffer from low self-esteem,you constantly worry about your own problems and when someone critisized her she may have felt that this friend was not loyal and did not really love her and therefore she felt unable to keep the friendship up.
Nevertheless,she is also said to be forgiving, she often later regretted some of her actions and she tried to reconcile with some of the friends she has fallen out with. Personally I do not believe that she was egoistic, she truly cared about other people and she could easily connect with all ages,social classes and nationalities. A person who is really just caring about herself would not be able to connect and interact with other people in the same way that Diana did,she had a gentle touch and a lot of empathy for others.
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  #478  
Old 06-20-2013, 07:59 AM
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Your post is very insightful, particularly your analysis of how Diana's depression impacted her actions. She was incredibly unhappy and people who are unhappy often concentrate on their own needs to the exclusion of others.

However, although Diana suffered from depression, I don't think she was severely depressed. Severe depression can just suck all the joy out of life to the point that it is hard to get out of the house or even get out of bed.

But Diana was able to get out of the house, often. She seemed to really enjoy herself in public, even during times she was suffering from depression. I think she drew a lot of strength in the attention she was receiving from the public and the media. That's why I think that although she may have been depressed, she wasn't severely depressed--which is an important distinction. If she had been severely depressed, no outside stimulus (including public and media adoration) would have helped her.

However, Diana admitted that she suffered from bulimia and self cutting.
Many people who suffer from eating disorders and engage in self cutting, also suffer from personality disorders--it's not an insult, it is a medical condition. I believe that Diana's symptoms are consistent with personality disorder. Personality disorder also runs in families, which also explains why one of her sister had difficulties and may explain Diana's mother's issues.

Personality disorder wasn't well understood in the 80's, although the research was developing. With anti-depressants and therapy, Diana could have led a much happier and healthier life.

In fact, I think she was on anti-depressants during the last few years of her life. As Blauerengel notes, she seemed happier and was able to reach out to people she may not have treated fairly in the past. I wish that good anti-depressants had been more available to her throughout her life, I think medication would have prevented a lot of her suffering.
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  #479  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:26 AM
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Then again, Charles had some happy years with Diana and they went on to be blessed with two sons.
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  #480  
Old 06-20-2013, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Diana never denied that there were happy times in her marriage. Diana had some issues and some came from her childhood days and Charles had some problems as well. Camilla played a big part though.
I prefer to believe that Camilla came into picture only after their marriage completely disintegrated..And when Charles badly needed some companion..
So her "playing a part" is just a myth created by Diana to shift the blame fully to him..
One more thing to justify that..Since Diana agreed that there were happy times, it means the early years of marriage were certainly Camilla-free..
So either Charles didnt give enough to Diana, leaving her to other men, or Diana didnt give enough to Charles, leaving him to Camilla.
I always believethere is no point in blaming a third person, so not at all big "part played by Camilla" in this case..
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