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  #621  
Old 06-19-2016, 04:09 AM
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i'm just saying that the premises of creating for her a title in her own right is because she will always be the mother of the king whether she remarried or stayed single and
as a mater of fact this is what happened with alexandra countess of frederiksborg even thought here kids will never be kings put she still a mother of two danish princes
The Grevinde af Fredensborg, formerly Princess Joachim of Denmark, formerly Mrs Martin Jørgensen, née Alexandra Manley is not a very lucky example. After two failed marriages she still wanders around as a "Countess", still living on the expenses of Danish taxpayers and is an achilles' heel for the Danish royal family. On short term it looked a nice solution, on the longer term it became a headache dossier.
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  #622  
Old 06-19-2016, 04:11 AM
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To be honest, I don't believe it ever was a possibility of happening. Not from HM, The Queen as up until Diana's death, the slurs and innuendos and whatever that Diana had put out in the media was still very fresh in their minds. I think it would also have driven the Duke of Edinburgh in to an apoplectic fit. We have to remember that Diana was only actually divorced from Charles for a short time before her death.

I'd have to look up the sources but if I remember right, the Prime Ministers and the governmental powers that be kind of regarded Diana as a "loose cannon" but once again, most of this was during the years of the separation between Charles and Diana.

Until the divorce became absolute, most of her good works and charity work actually were part and parcel of what she was expected to do as she was still HRH, The Princess of Wales although separated from Charles.

To my knowledge, titles and styles have never been created for a person that has passed on and the period between becoming divorced and her tragic accident was really a very short span of time.

This is, by no means, to make light of what Diana did and worked to achieve in her work as she did wonderfully well among the people. I'm just looking at it from a practical angle here.
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  #623  
Old 06-19-2016, 04:19 AM
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if edward viii who nearly brought the monarchy to an end was created duke of windsor and his wife a duchess i don't know why wouldn't diana

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The Grevinde af Fredensborg, After two failed marriages she still wanders around as a "Countess", still living on the expenses of Danish taxpayers and is an achilles' heel for the Danish royal family. On short term it looked a nice solution, on the longer term it became a headache dossier.
that's different her son nikolai who will always be a prince will not gonna take anything from the civil list having a title doesn't mean you take official allowance anymore and she doesn't take allowance because of her titles but because The Folketing decided to put her on the civil list for life when she was divorce in 2004 the title was created in 2005
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  #624  
Old 06-19-2016, 04:32 AM
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if edward viii who nearly brought the monarchy to an end was created duke of windsor and his wife a duchess i don't know why wouldn't diana
There's been really good discussions about the titles and styles of Edward VIII after the abdication in their own specific thread here.

Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)

A big difference that stands out for me between David and Diana is that David (Edward VIII) was a a Prince of the blood royal and the King's brother. Diana only became royal through marriage.
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  #625  
Old 06-19-2016, 04:46 AM
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A big difference that stands out for me between David and Diana is that David (Edward VIII) was a a Prince of the blood royal and the King's brother. Diana only became royal through marriage.
i know there is a difference but the reason i said this example is for those who say that she damaged the monarchy and only done bad things so she doesn't deserve a title
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  #626  
Old 06-19-2016, 04:52 AM
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[...] If Diana was say Countess of Brington.. (is that the name of hte village near to her home?) she would have a settled title in her own right. if she remarried and had more children- they would be Lady Mary X or The Hon Christoper X..I think it woudl have satisfied her to have a title that was hers, and not dependent on being Charles' ex wife or William's mother.
Titles are hereditary for "male heirs of the body, lawfully begotten" unless there is a special remainder in or to the Letters Patent. In normal situations the children of the Countess of Brington with Mr Khan are still simply Mr Khan and Miss Khan. No Honourables and no Lords and no Ladies.

In very exceptional circumstances, to extremely meritorious leaders in war, a remainder has been attached to the first Peer because there was no direct male issue, so that a brother or a cousin, or by lack of these a daughter, would become the second holder of that peerage.

An example: Admiral Horatio Nelson - his peerage passed by a special remainder, which included Lord Nelson's father and sisters and their male issue, to Lord Nelson's brother, William Nelson. Later Lord Nelson's brother was created Earl Nelson and Viscount Merton.

An example: Field Marshal Herbert Kitchener - his peerage passed by a special remainder, which included Lord Kitchener' brothers and sisters and their male issue, to Lord Kitchener's elder brother, Henry Kitchener. He became the 2nd Earl Kitchener and Viscount Broome.

An example: Field Marshal Edmund Allenby - his peerage passed by a special remainder, which included Lord Allenby's brothers and their male issue, to Lord Allenby's nephew, Dudley Allenby. He became the 2nd Viscount Allenby.

An example: Air Marshal Charles Portal - the title Viscount Portal became extinct on Lord Portal's death in 1971 as he left no surviving sons. The other title Baron Portal of Hungerford, was succeeded according to a special remainder by his daughter Rosemary. However Baroness Portal of Hungerford died without issue, and so also the barony became extinct on her death.

An example: Rear Admiral Louis Mountbatten - the titles Earl Mountbatten and Baron Romsey were -by special reminder- inheritable by the Earl's daughters Lady Patricia and the male heirs of her body or -by lack of heirs- by the younger daughter Lady Pamela. The son of lady Patricia, the current 8th Baron Brabourne, will inherit all titles.

All these men were war heros and all these titles were bestowed on a male. Giving Diana a hereditary title with a special remainder for her Al-Fayed or Khan children, bypasssing her elder sons from her first marriage, seems very unlikely to me. The named gentlemen were most exceptional and of course the Nineties were not the same as the Victorian, Edwardian or Georgian era...
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  #627  
Old 06-19-2016, 05:01 AM
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i think if she was created a peer in her own right it would have been a life peer or without special remainder and the title would passes to william and finally merge with the crown again
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  #628  
Old 06-19-2016, 05:06 AM
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Had Diana lived and continued on to make headways into fields like land mines, AIDS, or other charitable causes, its very possible that she could have been nominated for the Honors List in her own right in recognition of her service to the UK. These people are nominated by the Prime Minister and the government of the day and approved by the Queen.

If she, by chance, ever was considered for a title of her own, it most likely would be a lifetime peerage that wouldn't be transferable to anyone and that peerage would end at the time of her death. These are also at the discretion of the Prime Minister and the government with the Queen's approval

Basically though, what we're looking at logically was that the span of time between the divorce and her death was really too short to have her do anything that would merit recognition in her own right.
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“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
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  #629  
Old 06-19-2016, 05:10 AM
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and maybe it wouldn't have happened in QEII reign maybe in charles or williams reign
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  #630  
Old 06-19-2016, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by duke of poliganc View Post
and maybe it wouldn't have happened in QEII reign maybe in charles or williams reign
There is one thing that we're overlooking here as far as creating someone a hereditary peerage or a life peerage as, if I'm following this discussion correctly, it is more than just giving someone a title in their own right.

1. For the most part, peerages are created at the request of the government of the day that have been approved by HM, The Queen. Why? Because, although I'm not that well read up on the subject, a peer (either kind) are permitted to sit in the House of Lords or the House of Commons and participate in governmental business.

2. The creation of royal dukes are rare and usually only bestowed upon a bloodline prince at the time of his marriage. (Harry would be the next prime example of this as he most probably will be given a dukedom at the time of his marriage). A monarch bestowing the orders of chivalry such as the Garter and the Thistle and the monarch's own personal acknowledgments such as the family orders and such do not carry titles and styles (to my knowledge).

Even if Diana was alive and well and very well respected and admired and worked tirelessly to benefit the people, I don't think she ever would receive anything more than perhaps the government of the day nominating her for one of the honors that come out every year in the Honors list. The highest I believe is the KBE (Knight of the British Empire) and the female version of the title that goes with it would be Dame.

Geesh, this is interesting and I'm learning a lot with this.
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  #631  
Old 06-19-2016, 06:02 AM
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thought i think QEII wouldn't have minded creating diana a peer in her own right after all The Queen had offered the husband of her cousin Sir Angus Ogilvy an earldom on his wedding , which he declined. i wouldn't think she wouldn't do it to the mother of a future king especially if she was alive when charles remarried .

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1. For the most part, peerages are created at the request of the government of the day that have been approved by HM, The Queen. Why? Because, although I'm not that well read up on the subject, a peer (either kind) are permitted to sit in the House of Lords or the House of Commons and participate in governmental business.
that's for those who are outside the royal family i know that diana after the divorce lost 'HRH' but she was still considered part of the royal family
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  #632  
Old 06-19-2016, 06:11 AM
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i think if she was created a peer in her own right it would have been a life peer or without special remainder and the title would passes to william and finally merge with the crown again
A title without special remainder would never pass to William. In Diana's case, being a female holder of the peerage, there must be a special remainder to the Letters Patent to make her title inheritable to her eldest son. (And why would the Queen do that? In due time William will add the titles Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Earl of Chester, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland to his current peerages: Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn, Baron Carrickfergus. And then we are leaving aside the not-automatic title Prince of Wales...).
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  #633  
Old 06-19-2016, 06:34 AM
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isn't any heredity peer title is created with normal remainder to " the heirs male of his body " and the special remainder is in case the holder doesn't have a male son only daughters like the duchy of fife ?
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  #634  
Old 06-19-2016, 06:43 AM
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From what I've been reading, other than the hereditary peers that Thatcher had created in a short time span, there haven't really been any hereditary peers created since then and since 1960s before Thatcher, very few so I think we can safely say that other than the monarch creating royal dukes and bestowing titles (which are becoming more and the more the norm of being refused) on family members, we won't be seeing new hereditary peers much at all.
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  #635  
Old 06-19-2016, 07:21 AM
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From what I've been reading, other than the hereditary peers that Thatcher had created in a short time span, there haven't really been any hereditary peers created since then and since 1960s before Thatcher, very few so I think we can safely say that other than the monarch creating royal dukes and bestowing titles (which are becoming more and the more the norm of being refused) on family members, we won't be seeing new hereditary peers much at all.
probably not, but She would have been a special case... ANd there is nothing to stop the queen doing it. It would not do any harm to anyone, it might have pleased her and the public... why not.
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  #636  
Old 06-19-2016, 08:41 AM
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isn't any heredity peer title is created with normal remainder to " the heirs male of his body " and the special remainder is in case the holder doesn't have a male son only daughters like the duchy of fife ?
Very rarely a special remainders indeed are issued when the first holder of a created Peerage has no direct issue. But it makes no sense in Diana's case. Imagine that she would get a third child, a son, with Dodi Al-Fayed.

The successors to her peerage are her eldest son William, then her second son Harry and then her third son with Dodi. Her two eldest sons already are Princes of the United Kingdom, with every expectation that the both of them would be created a Duke, an Earl and a Baron -as happened in William's case.

A hereditary peerage with a special reminder in Diana's case was totally useless: it is like carrying water to the sea.
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  #637  
Old 06-20-2016, 02:31 PM
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Titles are hereditary for "male heirs of the body, lawfully begotten" unless there is a special remainder in or to the Letters Patent. In normal situations the children of the Countess of Brington with Mr Khan are still simply Mr Khan and Miss Khan. No Honourables and no Lords and no Ladies.
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A title without special remainder would never pass to William. In Diana's case, being a female holder of the peerage, there must be a special remainder to the Letters Patent to make her title inheritable to her eldest son.
The same courtesy titles apply to the children of a hereditary peer, the children of a hereditary peeress, and children of life peers and peeresses of the same rank. The daughters of Countess Mountbatten (who are not in the line of succession to her peerage) are Lady Joanna Zuckerman and Lady Amanda Ellingworth; as daughters of their father, the late Baron Brabourne, they would have been Honourable.

Sons of a Baron, Baron and Baroness, Titles, Forms Of Address, People of Influence | Debrett's

A peerage created for Diana with the standard remainder would pass to William indeed, because he would be the oldest "heir male of her body, lawfully begotten".

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1. For the most part, peerages are created at the request of the government of the day that have been approved by HM, The Queen. Why? Because, although I'm not that well read up on the subject, a peer (either kind) are permitted to sit in the House of Lords or the House of Commons and participate in governmental business.
After the House of Lords Act 1999, hereditary peers lost their automatic right to sit in the House of Lords, but they may still stand for election to one of the 92 seats reserved for them.
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  #638  
Old 06-20-2016, 04:30 PM
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That is true Tatiana. while I agree that the RF might not have bene keen on the idea, I can't see what harm it would have done. Diana IMO deserved something, I thtink that the queen realised that she had not been wholly responsbile for the failure of her marriaige and that was why she got a very good financial settlement.. and a peerage woudl not have cost anyting or made any great difference to the RF or anyone as a whole. If she had had a title, it woudl have been a bit of help in her chariry work, people like a title, and it would eventually pass to William so it would not be a problem in that respect. And any younger children, of a second marriage would be say "the Hon, X Y" or Lady X Y." Courtesy titles but I think they would have been suitable.
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  #639  
Old 06-20-2016, 09:55 PM
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After the House of Lords Act 1999, hereditary peers lost their automatic right to sit in the House of Lords, but they may still stand for election to one of the 92 seats reserved for them.
I'm always a happy camper when someone steps in and adds to, clarifies and/or corrects something I've said in a post.

Thank you much Tatiana Maria! I love that name.

Denville, while I would agree with you that it might be a nice idea now that we look back on things, up until 1996, HM, The Queen could have bestowed any number of different honors that are her personal gifts on Diana but with the things the way they were with the separation and the period leading up to the divorce, I think if she had done so, it would have made her look hypocritical with her praises as the War of the Wales was still very much ongoing. For the year after the divorce until Diana's death in 1997, they were still very much reeling from the split up of this marriage and as a private citizen between 1996-1997, Diana really hadn't done much to warrant being honored and titled for.

One thing that defines HM's character is that she is very serious and knowledgeable of her role and what is acceptable and what is proper to do. In this respect, I think giving Diana any kind of title in her own right never crossed her mind.
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  #640  
Old 06-21-2016, 03:03 AM
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Hum, the queen is only a person and IMO has made a few bad mistakes in her time. I don't think she always gets things right. She has allowed Andy far too much leniency IMO..
Previously, royals leaving/giving up their royal status, usually took a title of nobility, just because they had been royal and it wasn't considered fitting for them to become just a mere Mister... so I would have thought that since Diana (while I admit she'd behaved foolishly) had not done anything terribly wrong and was still the mother of royal children, should have been given a title. Diana had been a good hard working princess of Wales, she had raised the profile of the RF, and it wasn't her fault that she had not been able to compete with Cam for Charles' affections. In the year after her divorce, she had not been very active but I don't think the RF really wanted her doing "great things" which would take the attention away from Charles who was very unpopular at the time. But she had done charity work and had become involved in the Landmines campaign. So why not make her a countess?
I don't know fi she would have wanted it, but I think and thought at the time that it woud have been sutiable.
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