The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #581  
Old 05-18-2016, 05:52 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,123
Well yes obviously. I cannot believe that there was ever any offer to allow Diana a privilege that has not been given to any other royal wives, except for Prss Alice...
The whole sticking point about her post divorce title was that I think she wanted to keep the HRH, which would keep her included as a royal and the queen did not want to allow her to have this.. Diana is said to have said that she didn't care about her title and would be all right as "Lady Diana" but when she realised that losing her HRH would mean that she had to curtsy to other royal women, she was unhappy about it.. So why would the queen offer her something that was keeping her in royal rank? Technically yes she could but there was no way she was going to do that.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #582  
Old 05-18-2016, 08:00 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 6,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
So why would the queen offer her something that was keeping her in royal rank? Technically yes she could but there was no way she was going to do that.
The only reason I can think of that would make the offer feasible is that even though Diana was divorced from The Prince of Wales, she would still be the mother of a future monarch.
__________________

__________________
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
― John Lennon
Reply With Quote
  #583  
Old 05-18-2016, 08:55 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spring Hill, United States
Posts: 2,822
And, extremely popular. She will be for, always, The Princess of Wales, even though, that title now belongs to Camilla. She, wisely, used the Duchess of Cornwall. The queen knew that Diana's popularity, plus she would be the mother and grandmother of future kings or queens. When William is king, should would be the King Mother.
Reply With Quote
  #584  
Old 05-18-2016, 09:15 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 6,632
She would definitely be the king's mother but she wouldn't have the title of The King Mother or even The Queen Mother such as the Queen's mum was Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother. In order for that to happen, Diana would have had to actually been Queen herself. QEQM used that specific styling to differentiate herself from her daughter as they both had the same first name.

Regarding popularity and honorifics and titles and styles and all that happy hoopla, as a staunch traditionalist, HM, The Queen sought to not just do right by Diana, but also saw that things were done properly. Diana's style denoted that she formerly held the title of Princess of Wales. Same with Sarah, Duchess of York. Should Andrew remarry, Sarah could still continue with her present styling but Andrew's new wife would be The Duchess of York. Same thing if Diana had lived. Diana would still be Diana, Princess of Wales (unless she remarried of course) and Camilla could legally be styled as The Princess of Wales.
__________________
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
― John Lennon
Reply With Quote
  #585  
Old 05-18-2016, 11:46 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
HOW would she be offered to be given teh style of Princess Diana?? there is no way that that could happen. Princess Diana would only be if she was the daughter of a king or prince...
It's a technicality, but "Princess Diana" is not a style, it's a title.

The Queen can theoretically bestow royal titles on whoever she wants to, so if she had wanted to make Diana a Princess in her own right she could have - likewise with Camilla, Catherine, Sophie, Sarah, and similarly with Tim, Mark, and Anthony - as she did with the DoE. She could ask decide to allow a woman who is a British Princess by marriage to use her own name in her title, instead of her husband's - if she wanted to, she could go to Princess Michael of Kent and say "from now on I think you should be called Princess Marie Christine of Kent".

But, doing both kind of goes against British tradition and custom, and so it's kind of unlikely.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
that's hardly teh same, he was made a prince as he was the queen's husband. Diana was hardly goig to be given the privilege of being "Princess Firstname.." when she was leaving the RF.. People kept saying this a few years ago when Kate married William, that she was going to be given the title of "Princess Catherine" rather than "Princess William or HRH the Duchess of X".. which was not going to happen.. The only time the Q has done this was to give Princess Alice duchess of Gloucester the right to call herself Princess Alice, and that was when she was the wife of a prince and had done a lifetime of royal service. I dont beleive there was ever any "offer" that Di would be "Princess Diana".

In a way, Princess Alice wasn't the only wife of a British Prince to use her own name, and the circumstances were very atypical.

King George V had 4 sons to survive into adulthood, Edward, Albert, Henry, and George, who married Wallis, Elizabeth, Alice, and Marina. Edward, of course abdicated in order to marry and his wife was denied the right to use her husband's Royal styles, remaining "simply" a Duchess. Albert became King, so Elizabeth became Queen, and Marina was a Princess of Greece and Denmark in her own right.

Legally, as she became a British subject after her marriage, Marina wasn't supposed to use her foreign titles, but after her husband's death and her son's later marriage she decided she didn't want to be titled as The Dowager Duchess of Kent and asked to be able to use her own name. The Queen allowed it, and so she became known as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.

Going forward to 1974, there were 3 surviving daughters-in-law of George V - Wallis, Elizabeth, and Alice (Marina having died in 1968). Wallis was still denied the use of Royal titles, Elizabeth was Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother, and Alice was the new Dowager Duchess of Gloucester, her husband having died that year and her son already being married. So, as the only daughter-in-law who was both recognized as a Royal and not having a title of her own, it was kind of logical to have her use Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester (similar to Marina), instead of The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester (more comparable to Wallis).
Reply With Quote
  #586  
Old 05-19-2016, 02:27 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
She would definitely be the king's mother but she wouldn't have the title of The King Mother or even The Queen Mother such as the Queen's mum was Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother. In order for that to happen, Diana would have had to actually been Queen herself. QEQM used that specific styling to differentiate herself from her daughter as they both had the same first name.

Rof Wales.
True, I dont know where this nonsensical thing came about Diana wanting to be "King Mother" if Charles were out of the succession.. There is no such title. Never has been. And even if Diana had become the Kings' mother, had she been alive when Will became King, she would not as far as I know have been queen Mother, since as you say, she had never been a queen. As far as I recall, Diana issued a statement, during the divorce talks, about her future title, and the queen was annoyed and countered with her own statement to say that Diana's title and future role etc were not decided yet. At the time, some though that it was not kind of the queen to take away her HRH, and that as the mother of a future King, she should retain that, but I think that Diana's behaviour made her mother in law more annoyed and reluctant to be generous to her...
Reply With Quote
  #587  
Old 05-19-2016, 03:20 AM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 3,327
Did people refer to Alexandra and Mary as anything other than Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary once their husbands died and the son became king? The use of Queen Mother seemed logical in 1952 since mother and daughter shared a first name. Once Diana and Charles divorced, Diana wasn't going to be confused with William's Queen.

The template was already set for the wife of a peer who has divorced the peer by the time of the Wales divorce. It's First Name, Title. The becoming of a royal was tied to marrying one instead of being born one so if you divorce the Royal then the trappings of royalty such as the HRH should be lost.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community
Reply With Quote
  #588  
Old 05-19-2016, 04:15 AM
SLV's Avatar
SLV SLV is online now
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 966
Wouldn't they be called Queen Dowager?
Reply With Quote
  #589  
Old 05-19-2016, 07:19 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,189
Both were occasionally referred to as Queen Dowager, I believe, but most of the time they were just 'Queen Alexandra' and 'Queen Mary'. It got a bit crowded there for a very short time in 1952, when Queen Elizabeth came to the throne and her widowed mother and grandmother were still alive.
Reply With Quote
  #590  
Old 05-19-2016, 10:13 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,938
Queens Alexandra and Mary could have both used either Queen Mother or Dowager Queen. Alexandra I believe used neither. Queen Mart was against using Queen Mother as she felt it implied she was old, but she did use Dowager Queen at the end of her life when there were 3 Queens (herself, her daughter-in-law, and her granddaughter).

The Queen Mum used Queen Mother to distinguish herself from her daughter (as they shared the same name) and initially her mother-in-law (who was also a Dowager Queen, but no longer the Queen Mother).

Interestingly, there has been a title of The King's Mother used, by Henry VII's mother, Margaret Beaufort. She was never a Queen herself, but I think the title was viewed necessary as Henry's mother-in-law, Elizabeth Woodville, was a Dowager Queen of England (and a former Queen Mother), so this helped elevate Margaret to an equal standing.
Reply With Quote
  #591  
Old 05-19-2016, 08:06 PM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 11,328
Let's stay on topic.
__________________
.

Reply With Quote
  #592  
Old 05-19-2016, 09:15 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spring Hill, United States
Posts: 2,822
Princess Alice requested the title of Princess Alice and the queen granted it. William if he were king and his mother were still alive, could grant whatever he wished. Remember, the queen offered to restore Diana's HRH when she died. It was rejected by her brother.
Reply With Quote
  #593  
Old 05-19-2016, 10:12 PM
HRHHermione's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boston, United States
Posts: 2,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Princess Alice requested the title of Princess Alice and the queen granted it. William if he were king and his mother were still alive, could grant whatever he wished. Remember, the queen offered to restore Diana's HRH when she died. It was rejected by her brother.

I didn't know that! That's fascinating about the Queen offering a posthumous HRH


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app
Reply With Quote
  #594  
Old 05-20-2016, 04:28 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I didn't know that! That's fascinating about the Queen offering a posthumous HRH


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app
I dont know if it is true. If so, it was clealry an appeasement gesture..
Reply With Quote
  #595  
Old 05-20-2016, 05:02 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS;189075 [...
Remember, the queen offered to restore Diana's HRH when she died. It was rejected by her brother.
That is not possible. Her Royal Highness / Your Royal Highness is no title. It is a form of address, like The Right Honourable, Her Excellency, Her Grace, The Reverend, etc. Giving a form of address to a deceased person is pretty useless.
Reply With Quote
  #596  
Old 05-20-2016, 01:25 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,123
its not JUST a form of address.. it is a significant three letters that would have given her a royal status when she was buried.. I agree that it is not likely the queen would have offered it; and I think that it IS likely that if she had, at that time, in order that Diana could have had royal status in death, Charles Spencer would have then refused it as "too late."
Reply With Quote
  #597  
Old 05-20-2016, 09:51 PM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 11,328
Please note that posts regarding the Diana's burial have been moved to Last Hours, Death, Transfer from France, Funeral and Interment .

Let's stay on topic.....
__________________
.

Reply With Quote
  #598  
Old 06-18-2016, 04:40 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 3
I don't understatnf question from Post 1, sorry
Reply With Quote
  #599  
Old 06-18-2016, 04:53 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Den-ha-raus View Post
I don't understatnf question from Post 1, sorry
I think that the Original poster was asking if Diana's title/name/way of referring to her -would change when William is King..
it wont.. she will still be referred to as Diana Princess of Wales
Reply With Quote
  #600  
Old 06-18-2016, 05:03 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 6,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I think that the Original poster was asking if Diana's title/name/way of referring to her -would change when William is King..
it wont.. she will still be referred to as Diana Princess of Wales
Yeps. Unless (let's say for example) she married Hasnat Khan. Then she'd be Mrs. Hasnat Khan and lose the courtesy styling as an ex-wife of a peer.

William's addressing her as "mum" would never change. Ever.
__________________

__________________
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
― John Lennon
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diana princess of wales, princess diana, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess Prince Harry and Prince William 1353 11-17-2016 02:00 PM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 38 09-17-2016 06:06 AM
Questions about British Styles and Titles summrbrew2 British Royals 2920 05-25-2016 12:48 PM
Non-British Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 729 10-09-2014 05:24 PM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit best outfit september catherine middleton style coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria's maternity fashion current events duchess of cambridge e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece jubilee celebration kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction military monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathilde daytime fashion queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania queen rania style royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:03 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises