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  #521  
Old 01-29-2011, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Iluvbertie, you believe that Diana stopped people and told them to call her Princess Charles? I have never seen anything regarding this in any book, magazine or paper. May I ask you to provide the link? Many thanks!
I never said she told them to call her Princess Charles but that she told them that is was wrong to call her Princess Diana.
She didn't do it in the street but I do have a couple of references in magazines etc by people like Richard Kay and others.

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Originally Posted by Queen Penelope View Post
Since Prince Charles had a title, wasn't she just HRH The Princess of Wales?, or was she was Princess Charles, but styled Princess if Wales?
She was both - The Prince Charles as that was his most basic title but The Princess of Wales as well as that is his most senior title.
She was also The Duchess of Cornwall - Charles' longest held substantive title.
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  #522  
Old 01-29-2011, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

She was both - The Prince Charles as that was his most basic title but The Princess of Wales as well as that is his most senior title.

She was also The Duchess of Cornwall - Charles' longest held substantive title.
Thanks for the clarification! I knew Princess of Wales was her most senior title, and she held the other titles that Prince Charles holds. I just guessed since she has several titles by virtue of marriage, she would not hold "The Princess Charles" as a title, as that would be the title she would receive upon marriage had Charles had no other titles (ie. Princess Michael). But that make total sense, as he is "The Prince Charles", so she, as well as being The Princess of Wales, was also The Princess Charles!!. :)
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  #523  
Old 01-30-2011, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen Penelope View Post
Thanks for the clarification! I knew Princess of Wales was her most senior title, and she held the other titles that Prince Charles holds. I just guessed since she has several titles by virtue of marriage, she would not hold "The Princess Charles" as a title, as that would be the title she would receive upon marriage had Charles had no other titles (ie. Princess Michael). But that make total sense, as he is "The Prince Charles", so she, as well as being The Princess of Wales, was also The Princess Charles!!. :)
Exactly - she took all his titles.

Currently only Princess Micheal uses that form but there are a number who have it - Camilla, (The Princess Charles), Sophie (The Princess Edward), Birgitte (Princess Richard of Gloucester) and Katherine (Princess Edward of Kent). These ladies use other titles but they also have these ones.
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  #524  
Old 02-03-2011, 02:48 PM
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Posts not relating to Diana have been moved to the Questions about Styles and Titles thread.
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  #525  
Old 11-24-2012, 06:29 PM
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The Queen issued Letters Patent dated August 21st, 1996 which regulated royal style & titles after divorce. As such, the Princess of Wales & the Duchess of York, lost the style and prefix of Royal Highness.

Since Diana was legally no longer a Royal Highness, if she had lived, would she have been required to curtsy to her daughter in law, Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge?
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  #526  
Old 11-24-2012, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
Since Diana was legally no longer a Royal Highness, if she had lived, would she have been required to curtsy to her daughter in law, Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge?
In all probability, she wouldn't have to. Despite the divorce and the loss of the style of Royal Highness, the Queen made sure Diana (as mother of the future King) was still accorded the same precedence and ranking she had during her marriage to Prince Charles - meaning she was the third lady in the Kingdom after the Queen and the Queen Mother.

Now, had Diana lived, she would have certainly had lower precedence than Camilla (the current wife of the Prince of Wales) but it is likely the Queen would have still accorded her a precedence above that of William and Harry's wives.

I think it would have largely depended on how well Diana's relationship with the Royal Family would be (and there were signs of improvement at the time of her death, at least in regards to Prince Charles), or how popular she remained (and her popularity was on the decline before her death; most articles on Diana immediately preceding her death were highly critical). If she maintained good, cordial relations with the Queen and Prince Charles, I daresay her precedence wouldn't have changed (meaning right now it would be The Queen -> The Duchess of Cornwall -> Diana, Princess of Wales -> The Countess of Wessex -> The Duchess of Cambridge). However, if she became a controversial figure due to her lifestyle or other issues, she would have most probably lost her precedence, mother of the future King or not. Likewise, had Diana re-married, I'm almost certain she would have been accorded a much lower precedence (certainly below Sophie and probably Kate too), or would have none at all.

Of course, this is just speculation on my part' no one can predict how things would have been had Diana lived.
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  #527  
Old 11-24-2012, 07:58 PM
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I highly doubt Diana would have dropped a curtsey to anyone but The Queen, Prince Philip and The Queen Mother. She was still the mother of a future King regardless of the divorce.
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  #528  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:02 PM
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Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain: Documents

The link above has the Letters Patent regarding former wives and below is the announcement as it appeared in the Gazette for anyone thats interested

Buckingham Palace
The Queen has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm dated 21st August 1996, to declare that a former wife (other than a widow until she shall remarry) of a son of a Sovereign of these Realms, of a son of a son of a Sovereign and of the eldest living son of the eldest son of The Prince of Wales shall not be entitled to hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness.

(London Gazette, issue 54510, Aug 30, 1996, p. 1/11603.)
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  #529  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:19 PM
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As you stated: "She was the mother of the future king regardless of her divorce".

Evidently it mattered enough to the Queen, as she was the one that issued the necessary patent to restrict the style. I personally felt she should have kept the Royal Highness title. It just doesn't make sense to me at all-- what's the point in rendering someone's precedence the same, but you take away a key identity to that precedence. I have much respect for the Queen, but I believe the move she played was rather vindictive. And many may argue this, but regardless of Diana's precedence as mother to a future king, she is obliged to curtsy to others who are Royal Highnesse's.

I read years ago that Princess Michael of Kent had written her a letter fustrating her anger at how the Queen stripped (Diana) her of her royal title, unbefitting the mother of a future king. She went onto to say in the letter that "though court protocal obliges you to curtsy to me, don't you dare do it".

People are saying it doesn't matter, however it did. Without the HRH title, Diana no longer received the "Royal Salute" honoured to members of the British Royal Family when entering or exiting royal residences.

TYPO: Sorry for not speaking in the past tense guys!!!!! :)
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  #530  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:24 PM
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Well when the George VI denied the Duchess of Windsor the style of Royal Highness, one of the main reasons was because she would never be on the throne as consort, she couldn't hold Royal rank. Maybe HM was thinking the same thing. Because former wives will never be consorts, they can't enjoy the style of Royal Highness?
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  #531  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:58 PM
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But why should have Diana kept the Royal Highness style? She became a Royal Highness and a British Princess by virtue of her marriage to a British Prince. Once she was no longer the wife of the said Prince, she lost the styles and titles she acquired because of the marriage. It's pretty simple, really.

Precedence is a different matter; Diana maintained her high precedence because she was the mother of the future Monarch - and her divorce didn't change that.

Protocol most certainly did not oblige Diana to bow or curtsey to Royal Highnesses; since she did keep her precedence, she should have curtseyed only to those with higher ranking - the Queen, the Queen Mother and Prince Philip (and Prince Charles but I doubt the latter would have insisted or allowed tat). On the contrary, the Royal Highnesses who had lower precedence than Diana (Princess Michael included) should, in theory, still curtsey to her, although I'm pretty sure some of them - such as Princess Margaret - would sooner break their legs in purpose then do it.
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  #532  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:45 PM
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You have your opinion & I have my. My opinion is why take away the Royal Highness title but away, but maintain as mother of a future king, her precedence shall remain. What's the sense in that? Best believe, if Diana had lived to the reign of either Charles or William she would've certainly received her title back. And your argument saying Diana's precedence was accorded due to her being the mother of Prince William was a courtsey from the Queen, not a right just like that of the HRH title. Her precedence remained by the will of the Sovereign & no more. The Queen could have easily removed her precedence as third in the land.

And say what you will, but Diana was no longer a Royal Highness & Princess Michael of Kent was. And like many constitutional scholars have pointed out, theoretically she would be "obliged" to curtsy to her husband and own children. Now, would she in theory? I doubt it. I'm sure Sarah, Duchess of York doesn't curtsy to her daughters in private, but I'm very sure if participating in any kind of state occasion where formality is closely watched & observed, she would.

And the book I was talking about was called The Queen: A Biography of Elizabeth II, written by Ben Pimlot. In one of the chapters it explicitly talked about Diana's loss of title & how she would no loner would receive certain priviledges accorded to those who hold the prefix of Royal Highness.
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  #533  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:51 PM
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Most accounts have stated The Queen was willing to allow Diana to remain HRH after the divorce, but Diana decided to relinquish it in favor of a larger financial settlement and the freedom to live her life without constant oversight from the Palace. Others have stated Diana refused to settle for "HRH Princess Diana" and demanded to be "HRH Diana, Princess of Wales", which is technically the style of the wife of The Prince of Wales, and was declined by The Queen.

Either way, she did remain a Princess, although downgraded by the loss of her royal rank.
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  #534  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
You have your opinion & I have my. My opinion is why take away the Royal Highness title but away, but maintain as mother of a future king, her precedence shall remain. What's the sense in that? Best believe, if Diana had lived to the reign of either Charles or William she would've certainly received her title back. And your argument saying Diana's precedence was accorded due to her being the mother of Prince William was a courtsey from the Queen, not a right just like that of the HRH title. Her precedence remained by the will of the Sovereign & no more. The Queen could have easily removed her precedence as third in the land.
I respect your opinion and am really interested to hear it.

To me, it is sounds logical that once Diana was no longer married to a British Prince, she lost the styles and titles she had acquired by virtue of that marriage. Since she didn't stop being mother of the future King, she retained her precedence. Of course, the Queen could have at any point altered that precedence or remove it altogether. I do agree it is possible Diana would have received her Royal Highness back during the reigns of either Charles or William had she survived.

Quote:
And say what you will, but Diana was no longer a Royal Highness & Princess Michael of Kent was. And like many constitutional scholars have pointed out, theoretically she would be "obliged" to curtsy to her husband and own children. Now, would she in theory? I doubt it. I'm sure Sarah, Duchess of York doesn't curtsy to her daughters in private, but I'm very sure if participating in any kind of state occasion where formality is closely watched & observed, she would.
Now, it has nothing to do with what I say or what scholars think: the fact is Diana was the third lady in the Kingdom and thus in no shape or form obliged to curtsey to those with lower precedence, Royal Highness or not. Zara Phillips is not a Royal Highness but her precedence is higher than, say, that of Princess Michael, which is why you'll never see Zara curtseying to her.

Whatever occasion it was, from State Dinners to Coronation, Diana would not curtsey to those with lower precedence; they, on the other hand, might be obliged to do just that - and that included quite a few Royal Highnesses such as Princess Michael, the Duchess of Gloucester, the Duchess of Kent, Princess Alexandra, Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie, etc.

Quote:
And the book I was talking about was called The Queen: A Biography of Elizabeth II, written by Ben Pimlot. In one of the chapters it explicitly talked about Diana's loss of title & how she would no loner would receive certain priviledges accorded to those who hold the prefix of Royal Highness.
I do not contest that; Diana certainly lost certain privileges associated with her former titles and style. Then again, do you think it's logical for a former wife to enjoy privileges she had acquired by virtue of her marriage to her former husband? It doesn't make sense to me.
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  #535  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:01 PM
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When she lost the style of Royal Highness, Diana ceased to hold royal rank. That is one of the reasons why at her death, the Queen insisted that the Spencer Family handle her funeral & not the Royal Family.
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  #536  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince
When she lost the style of Royal Highness, Diana ceased to hold royal rank. That is one of the reasons why at her death, the Queen insisted that the Spencer Family handle her funeral & not the Royal Family.
Well, except that she received full royal honours and every aspect of her funeral was handled by the Royal Household and the Government, including a service at Westminster Abbey. Not exactly a low-key family funeral.
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  #537  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:12 PM
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So you're saying precedence is everything regardless of style & title?

Yeah she received it after a huge cat fight of the Queen's back being pinned against the wall & public opinion turning against her at the same time.
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  #538  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:16 PM
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If Diana were alive, I don't think she would be attending many royal events anyway, so her precedence and any styles/titles wouldn't be an issue IMO.
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  #539  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:18 PM
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So you're saying precedence is everything regardless of style & title?
It's a pretty simplistic way of putting it and there are tons of nuances but basically, yes.
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  #540  
Old 11-24-2012, 11:54 PM
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Most likely if the Princess of Wales were still alive, I do think she would've attended some family events. Being that she was the mother to the second in-line to the throne and still a member of the royal family.
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